jcd11235 0
jcd11235 0
Quote1. You don't know what the war will be like, and by the time you figure it out...It will have changed.
Have you ever studied Sun Tzu? 2500 years ago he wrote a very short book that has come to be known as The Art of War. It is the single most comprehensive work concerning military leadership, strategy and tactics. Today, probably ninety percent or more of that book is still applicable. It has NOT CHANGED all that much.
Bush, Wofowitz, Rumsfeld and the rest of the cronies sent american troops to invade a foreign sovereign, without popular support at home or abroad, without just cause. His generals warned him of the problems he would have without sufficient troop numbers. We are not experiencing unanticipated problems. We are experiencing problems the generals anticipated, but Bush chose to ignore.
Didn't we learn from Viet Nam? Politicians are not generals. IMO it IS criminal negligence.
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jcd11235 0
QuoteFact - Bush had more votes than any president in history.
Didn't he also have more votes cast against him than any other president in history? That just shows more people voting.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!
QuoteWe BOTH have about as much of an idea about armor. But you claimed to know lots about armor.
I know TONS more about being in the Army and being given equipment (or not) that was needed for a job than you.
I also know TONS more about the logistics of shipping equipment than you.
Oh please, both of you just calm down. Ron may know a lot about wearing armor, and Kallend may know a lot about designing armor. Wah.
From the posts I've seen on here, not a darned one of you know what it really means to acquire something for the DoD.
You want to know why we can't procure things in two years like we did in WWII? Here's why:
http://www.arnet.gov/far/reissue/FARvol1ForPaperOnly.pdf
Errr....you really don't want to click on that. That's the Federal Acquisition Regulation, Volume 1, parts 1-51. There's a volume 2, as well. Volume 1 is 1126 pages long.
That's right folks, there are over 2000 pages of LAWS that the DoD has to follow when procuring anything, from a new fighter jet to armor to the pens in the Pentagon supply cabinet.
All those articles about suppliers being able to make more armor don't mean jack shit. Here's what will happen. Mind you, this is the BEST case.
Assumptions:
1. The "Armor Program Office"(APO) already has an existing contract set up with a supplier. Let's call it Supplier A.
Scenario:
1. The APO puts in an unfunded requirement request. They might get some emergency funding and/or some of the money that is invariably left over at the end of the fiscal year. Let's say Congress decides to divert money for armor. (and all is roses and happiness)
2. Two months pass. During said two months, the contracting department is drawing up a modification to the existing contract with Supplier A to allow them to make more armor.
3. Said money finally shows up at the APO. Only now can contracting send the new "request for proposal" to supplier A, requesting that Supplier A draw up a statement of the work and a financial proposal. By the link I posted, they have 30 days.
4. A month passes.
5. Supplier A returns their proposal to the APO. APO has 30 days to review
6. 30 days pass.
7. In the best case, there are no problems on either end, and in another 2 weeks or so, the contract is signed and the money is obligated to Supplier A upon completion of work...
8. NOW supplier A can start making that armor. So, 4 and a half months later, the armor is finally being made.
Disclaimer: I make no claims that this would ACTUALLY happen in the real DoD acquisition world, and any belief that it would is a mistake in logic on the part of the reader.
In real life, the APO would be forced to do advertise their request for proposal and take bids from suppliers B,C, and D, then sit through a lengthy (3-6 months) source selection evaluating proposals. Then 3-6 more months would be taken up dealing with the inevitable protests by the losing bidders.
By then the money would be yanked back by the Pentagon and diverted to the F-22 or Future Combat System, and you'd be back at square one.
Trust me. I did this for 6 years of my life. And you wonder why I'm bitter.
Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
slug 1
Hi Zenister
Lets try and make this political
That cut and paste crap your quoting from aint worth the toilet paper it's written on. Because it comes from the commie liberal bush bashing media and we can't believe any of that crap (toilet paper
) that those guy write.Just because they write it don't mean it's true
I'm not going to believe anything unless I see it with my own eye's or the neo cons. pentagon says it true
Rummy's the main man he's says it you better believe it
We want to see 100% execution with zero negative indicator's and if you can't deliver we don't want to hear about it. Don't confuse the issue with the facts.Just complete the report with your yes stamp. The No stamp is missing until further notice.
As you were.
R.I.P.
Lets try and make this political
That cut and paste crap your quoting from aint worth the toilet paper it's written on. Because it comes from the commie liberal bush bashing media and we can't believe any of that crap (toilet paper
) that those guy write.Just because they write it don't mean it's true
I'm not going to believe anything unless I see it with my own eye's or the neo cons. pentagon says it true
Rummy's the main man he's says it you better believe it
We want to see 100% execution with zero negative indicator's and if you can't deliver we don't want to hear about it. Don't confuse the issue with the facts.Just complete the report with your yes stamp. The No stamp is missing until further notice.
As you were.
R.I.P.
Zenister 0
you make a good point.... if we werent at war, and if this administration had not used that reasoning to set the precedent for expedited contract awards and approvals ala Halliburton via KBR...
guess there arent any relations to the armor industry in the current inner circle...
guess there arent any relations to the armor industry in the current inner circle...
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
slug 1
Oh that
But where there's a will there's a way it's called Indefinate order delivery contracts. After all the BS once the contractor like (haliburton) gets a contract they can be directed to deliver certain services based on pre nogiated prices.
FEMA, EPA, and the corps of engineers use these type of contracts It's to the procurement agencies benifit to try and prenegoiate for every continengy or use cost plus contracts.
We've seen these type of contracts used on a national or regional basis. If there's a hazordous waste spill the EPA calls up their clean up contractor to get the job done ASAP. These contracts can be issued for 1 yr with the option for another two yr's.
It not all wine and roses for some reason the gov't only issues these contracts to one contractor per functions/area. So if the contactor gets a bad attitude tough luck it can take 3-6 month's to start the process to get another contractor.
Easy way out the contractor who gets the job for the first yr usualy ends up with all three. Thats why when Halliburton is found to have made some "accounting error" they know they will just have to work it out. Because there isn't anyone waiting in the wings to take over.
IMO the problems not with the FAR's it's with the people who administer the program.
In spite of the FAR The chief of USAF procurement was recently sentenced to 9mo in prision for making a sweetheart deal with Boeing for 100 new Aerial refueler's costing the gov't $billions.
Payoff? her daughter and son in law were given jobs with boeing dureing the procument process and after she retired she was hired by boeing for a newly created vice president position. Until McChan started raising hell
BTW the USAF procurent person was not a political appointee, but a career civil servant.
41
R.i.P.
But where there's a will there's a way it's called Indefinate order delivery contracts. After all the BS once the contractor like (haliburton) gets a contract they can be directed to deliver certain services based on pre nogiated prices.
FEMA, EPA, and the corps of engineers use these type of contracts It's to the procurement agencies benifit to try and prenegoiate for every continengy or use cost plus contracts.
We've seen these type of contracts used on a national or regional basis. If there's a hazordous waste spill the EPA calls up their clean up contractor to get the job done ASAP. These contracts can be issued for 1 yr with the option for another two yr's.
It not all wine and roses for some reason the gov't only issues these contracts to one contractor per functions/area. So if the contactor gets a bad attitude tough luck it can take 3-6 month's to start the process to get another contractor.
Easy way out the contractor who gets the job for the first yr usualy ends up with all three. Thats why when Halliburton is found to have made some "accounting error" they know they will just have to work it out. Because there isn't anyone waiting in the wings to take over.
IMO the problems not with the FAR's it's with the people who administer the program.
In spite of the FAR The chief of USAF procurement was recently sentenced to 9mo in prision for making a sweetheart deal with Boeing for 100 new Aerial refueler's costing the gov't $billions.
Payoff? her daughter and son in law were given jobs with boeing dureing the procument process and after she retired she was hired by boeing for a newly created vice president position. Until McChan started raising hell
BTW the USAF procurent person was not a political appointee, but a career civil servant.
41
R.i.P.
slug 1
Quoteyou make a good point.... if we werent at war, and if this administration had not used that reasoning to set the precedent for expedited contract awards and approvals ala Halliburton via KBR...
guess there arent any relations to the armor industry in the current inner circle...
Haliburton/Brown & root have a history of working in the oil industry. During the misplan someone thought that Sadam would ignight the oil fields and destroy the oil infrastucture like Kuwait, so haliburton/B&R were a logical choice.
The Corps of eengineers set up a special office in Iraq to admin the contract. check their Web sight USACE iraq
Surprise! very little damage to the oil wells, pump stations and other oil facilities.
But Haliburtan had a contract for X dollars so the scope was changed and grew and grew. Armored Humvees Haliburton subontract the work out like everything else.
R.i.P.
Zenister 0
i'm refering more to the infrastructure, not specifically related to oil...there are lots of 'life support' providers.. but who do you think got the contract? KBR. of course they have been doing it for years, and were likely in the best position to spin up quickly, but that isnt the point.... the point is if its money (oil) it gets pushed thru without any real issues or red tape..... to bad soldiers lives are not valued so highly...![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]")
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
slug 1
Quotei'm refering more to the infrastructure, not specifically related to oil...there are lots of 'life support' providers.. but who do you think got the contract? KBR. of course they have been doing it for years, and were likely in the best position to spin up quickly, but that isnt the point.... the point is if its money (oil) it gets pushed thru without any real issues or red tape..... to bad soldiers lives are not valued so highly...
I agree soldiers lives come first just bad planning after the shock and awe, the iraqi's were supposed to meet us with open arms we'd put out the oil fire's and the iraqi's would be in the oil business and clean up their own mess with their own money.
things didn't work out that way
Shit happens in war that why you don't want to do it.
I don't think the long lead time is a red tape problem just that the big boy's don't want to admit the screwed up and call out the calvery. Hell if they can't supply the existing troops how can they support all the troops needed to do the job. They could do it we have the production capacity and money Rummy don't want to admit he and his planners been wrong
This supply FUBAR tells me they don't have a plan to increase troop strength.
Macnamarra Sec of defence admitted he screwed up in Viet nam 30 yr's after the fact. History will tell if Rummy is blowing smoke. I hope I'm wrong, and Rummy & Tuna is right
R.I.P.
kallend 2,106
Certainly knowing how to wear armor is totally irrelevant to this discussion. How armor is designed and made is very relevant. Procurement paperwork only gets you so far - the product has to be manufacturable and manufactured in the quantities and quality required.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
I've worn it. It's hot, heavy, and generally sucks.
I've never shot at it. Lightfighters aren't well equipped, by design, so we make the most of our equipment and supplies. We would never waste bullets by shooting at the armor.
Yes I've been issued a set.
And I have gotten more useful information about body armor and HMMWV armor from books and internet than Uncle Sam was ever willing to teach me through class or experience.
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