jcd11235 0 #201 December 15, 2004 QuoteAnd the joke on you is you can't see the benefits of trial and error, or anything else that can't be fiqured with out a slide rule. This makes it so you can't fix anything with out tons of research making you useless in tight situations that require fast action. It looks like the joke is on you if you don't understand that is is the engineers that make it possible for you test variables at critical values. Without theoretical knowledge, there is no improvisation. Sure, physical tests are a great last step, but as a first step their value is extremely limited. By the way, do you know how artllery rounds get down range to their intended target in a reasonably accurate manner? It is because between the guy calling for DIVARTY assistance calls in coordinates to a soldier who uses trigonometry and Calculus to determine the right angle of elivation and azimuth. Trial and error, or "Fire for Effect," is used only after there is a good approximation of the targets location. And, no, they don't require protractors.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #202 December 15, 2004 QuoteWhy do I keep thinking about a teenager who has built model cars, has tons of car magazines, has read technical repair manuals on cars, and now thinks he knows how to drive? Probably the same reason I keep thinking of someone who has driven cars for years, and believes that experience qualifies them as a mechanic.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #203 December 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteYou've badmouthed people using math a dozen times this week already, Ron. It's becoming a joke on you. No, I have not bad mouthed people for using math. I have said that people who think math is the ONLY answer are missing the big picture. And the joke on you is you can't see the benefits of trial and error, or anything else that can't be fiqured with out a slide rule. This makes it so you can't fix anything with out tons of research making you useless in tight situations that require fast action. QuoteTo design modern armor plate by trial and error from the known elements of the periodic table would take longer than the known age of the universe. Theory (and math) cuts it down to a matter of months. Same applies to all modern hi-tech materials, whether it be magnetic coatings for disk drives or turbine blades for jet engines. And before any of those things are used by just anyone they go through real world testing. What makes you think engineers don't test anything? Who do you think decides on test strategies? Who decides what to measure and makes the measurements? Who analyzes the results? Engineers, that's who. I don't believe you have a very clear idea AT ALL about how engineers go about their jobs.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #204 December 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteYou've badmouthed people using math a dozen times this week already, Ron. It's becoming a joke on you. No, I have not bad mouthed people for using math. I have said that people who think math is the ONLY answer are missing the big picture. And the joke on you is you can't see the benefits of trial and error, or anything else that can't be fiqured with out a slide rule. This makes it so you can't fix anything with out tons of research making you useless in tight situations that require fast action. QuoteTo design modern armor plate by trial and error from the known elements of the periodic table would take longer than the known age of the universe. Theory (and math) cuts it down to a matter of months. Same applies to all modern hi-tech materials, whether it be magnetic coatings for disk drives or turbine blades for jet engines. And before any of those things are used by just anyone they go through real world testing. Why do I keep thinking about a teenager who has built model cars, has tons of car magazines, has read technical repair manuals on cars, and now thinks he knows how to drive? Randomly select 10 drivers and see how many of them can design an automatic transmission that works. Randomly select 10 mechanical engineers and see how many of them can drive. Randomly select 10 TV viewers and ask them to design a TV set. Randomly select 10 electrical engineers and see how many know how to change channel. Randomly select 10 people going into a bathroom and see how many can design a sewage treatment plant. Now select 10 civil engineers at random and see how many know how to flush a toilet.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #205 December 15, 2004 QuoteIt looks like the joke is on you if you don't understand that is is the engineers that make it possible for you test variables at critical values. Without theoretical knowledge, there is no improvisation. It does not take much math to know that a metal plate has a better chance of stopping a bullet than flesh. QuoteSure, physical tests are a great last step, but as a first step their value is extremely limited. Take my unit for example...Are they going to have the skills or the knowledge to do the engineering of body armor? Nope. Do they care? Nope. But it was quite easy to allow them to see the effects of a bullet on armor at different ranges, caliber and angles. And they learned a good lesson from it. QuoteBy the way, do you know how artllery rounds get down range to their intended target in a reasonably accurate manner? It is because between the guy calling for DIVARTY assistance calls in coordinates to a soldier who uses trigonometry and Calculus to determine the right angle of elivation and azimuth. Trial and error, or "Fire for Effect," is used only after there is a good approximation of the targets location. And the "fire for effect" is the proof. QuoteAnd, no, they don't require protractors I know how it works. I spent some time humping a base plate. Shot over, shot out. Splash over, splash out."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #206 December 15, 2004 QuoteRandomly select 10 drivers and see how many of them can design an automatic transmission that works. Randomly select 10 mechanical engineers and see how many of them can drive. Randomly select 10 TV viewers and ask them to design a TV set. Randomly select 10 electrical engineers and see how many know how to change channel. Randomly select 10 people going into a bathroom and see how many can design a sewage treatment plant. Now select 10 civil engineers at random and see how many know how to flush a toilet. Randomly select 10 physics guru's and 10 Comercial pilots...Who do you want to fly you? Randomly select 10 physics gurus and let them do the problems related to freefall. Now pick 10 AFF I's. Who do you want taking your son on a jump? Math has its place (which I have never said otherwise), but the proof is in the end result."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #207 December 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteRandomly select 10 drivers and see how many of them can design an automatic transmission that works. Randomly select 10 mechanical engineers and see how many of them can drive. Randomly select 10 TV viewers and ask them to design a TV set. Randomly select 10 electrical engineers and see how many know how to change channel. Randomly select 10 people going into a bathroom and see how many can design a sewage treatment plant. Now select 10 civil engineers at random and see how many know how to flush a toilet. Randomly select 10 physics guru's and 10 Comercial pilots...Who do you want to fly you? Randomly select 10 physics gurus and let them do the problems related to freefall. Now pick 10 AFF I's. Who do you want taking your son on a jump? Math has its place (which I have never said otherwise), but the proof is in the end result. I believe there are commercial pilots and AFF instructors who are also physics gurus too. Becoming professionally educated doesn't prevent anyone from other activities, and you don't check your common sense at the door of the lab. All of which is totally beside the point, which is that the administration sent OUR troops in harms way inadequately equipped, and has not seen fit until last week to fix an easily fixable problem that puts OUR BOYS at unnecessary risk. It's not like the armor needed inventing, it just needed orders placed.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,074 #208 December 15, 2004 >Randomly select 10 physics guru's and 10 Comercial pilots...Who do >you want to fly you? That's his point. Most of the aeronautical engineers I know could land the plane you're flying in if needed; a lot of them are pilots. Very few of the pilots (by occupation) I know could design an airplane. Which is all fine; engineers design airplanes and pilots fly them. >Randomly select 10 physics gurus and let them do the problems related to >freefall. Now pick 10 AFF I's. Who do you want taking your son on a jump? If you had a choice of your son jumping with: -a properly designed student rig, complete with cypres, and an incompetent instructor, or -a rig, main, reserve and AAD designed by Olav Zipser, with Olav as JM Which would you choose? Seeing the number of students who have gotten away from their JM and survived, I'd go with the reliable rig. It's hard to come up with emergency procedures for broken leg straps. >Math has its place (which I have never said otherwise), but the proof is >in the end result. I agree with you there. But I think you are mixing up what the end result is. We did not get to the moon because of Neil Armstrong, although he played a part. We got there because of the Saturn 5 vehicle, which was tested very minimally before it was used. It worked because people could design stuff on paper, not because astronauts knew what a rocket should look like. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #209 December 15, 2004 QuoteI believe there are commercial pilots and AFF instructors who are also physics gurus too. I bet I know more that are not. QuoteAll of which is totally beside the point, which is that the administration sent OUR troops in harms way inadequately equipped, and has not seen fit until last week to fix an easily fixable problem that puts OUR BOYS at unnecessary risk. It's not like the armor needed inventing, it just needed orders placed. And my point is that it has always been this way since man picked up a rock and hit another. Im not trying to say we should not do anyhting about it, but seem to fail to understand that the problem is not limited to this President or this situation. It is systemic"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #210 December 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteI believe there are commercial pilots and AFF instructors who are also physics gurus too. I bet I know more that are not. QuoteAll of which is totally beside the point, which is that the administration sent OUR troops in harms way inadequately equipped, and has not seen fit until last week to fix an easily fixable problem that puts OUR BOYS at unnecessary risk. It's not like the armor needed inventing, it just needed orders placed. And my point is that it has always been this way since man picked up a rock and hit another. Im not trying to say we should not do anyhting about it, but seem to fail to understand that the problem is not limited to this President or this situation. It is systemic How many Presidents besides Bush II and Teddy R. invaded another country when the US or its citizens had not been threatened or had not been attacked by the country in question. Going to war offensively on your own timetable is Bush's present to the American people. And he chose to do it at a time when OUR BOYS were not adequately equipped and apparently are still not adequately equipped two years later. TWO FRIGGIN' YEARS to get some armor made. Shame on him.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #211 December 15, 2004 G.W.'s the head of the team. His cabinet officer's are also team leaders. Maybe someone was held accountable in the chain of command was held accountable. A 22% increase in production of a certain component is significant. Hopefully they will stop the spin and do what they need to do in the other area's that are lacking. R.i.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #212 December 15, 2004 QuoteHow many Presidents besides Bush II and Teddy R. invaded another country when the US or its citizens had not been threatened or had not been attacked by the country in question. WW1,Korea, Vietnam. QuoteGoing to war offensively on your own timetable is Bush's present to the American people. And he chose to do it at a time when OUR BOYS were not adequately equipped and apparently are still not adequately equipped two years later. TWO FRIGGIN' YEARS to get some armor made. And like I said you would not be willing to pay for a peace time force that would meet your definition of "ready" and even then they would not be."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #213 December 15, 2004 QuoteRandomly select 10 physics guru's and 10 Comercial pilots...Who do you want to fly you? While I have only met a few, every ATP rated pilot I have ever met has been very familiar with physics. And I would not want to fly with a pilot who did not understand trigonometry. It comes in handy when you are trying to determine heading, fuel, ETA, etc.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #214 December 15, 2004 QuoteWhile I have only met a few, every ATP rated pilot I have ever met has been very familiar with physics. And I would not want to fly with a pilot who did not understand trigonometry. It comes in handy when you are trying to determine heading, fuel, ETA, etc. I would rather fly with a pilot that PROVED he could fly by passing a checkride, than a physics professor that just passed the written. Again the proof is in the actual deed, not the math."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #215 December 15, 2004 I went to the grade school the other day to pick up my daughter. Over by the playground 2 first grade boys were sitting across from each other and taking turns poking each other with sticks. Sometimes they looked like it hurt, other times they were giggling about it. It was just as funny. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #216 December 15, 2004 class class CLASS Can I have your attention for a minute. We're getting off the subject here Open up your books to the chapter on the theory of supply and demand of armor for the troops. you can start a new chapter in the big book of life that covers how to design and test rocket ships airplanes and other.....Stuff. We still expect you homework assignments in the morning Got it R.i.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #217 December 15, 2004 QuoteI went to the grade school the other day to pick up my daughter. Over by the playground 2 first grade boys were sitting across from each other and taking turns poking each other with sticks. Sometimes they looked like it hurt, other times they were giggling about it. It was just as funny. Affirmative But these are mature intelligent adultsin SC Funny? you bet, to bad radio isn't has populer as it used to be. SC is like Laurel And Hardy routine who's on first Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #218 December 15, 2004 QuoteI would rather fly with a pilot that PROVED he could fly by passing a checkride, than a physics professor that just passed the written. You're right Ron. Pilots that have never flown airplanes should not be flying passengers around. I think the idea of having an ATP rating sort of implies that they have shown a certain level of competence in the left seat of the cockpit. It's a lot like assuming the SGT MAJ has been through basic training, or that an English professor is literate.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #219 December 15, 2004 QuoteYou're right Ron. Pilots that have never flown airplanes should not be flying passengers around. I think the idea of having an ATP rating sort of implies that they have shown a certain level of competence in the left seat of the cockpit. It's a lot like assuming the SGT MAJ has been through basic training, or that an English professor is literate. Well thanks. That was my only point that while math helps design the stuff and make it as good as it can get the real proof of anything is in the real world. You guys think I am down on math...I'll admit I hate the stuff and it is driving me crazy at the moment (I have class in 2 hours). I am glad that someone knows it. I am also just as glad that some crazy nut job gets to test the stuff before I use it. My guys were shocked at how badly the armor worked...One guy on here asked the same question that was asked then. "Why do we have body armor that will not stop the rounds that the guys we are going to fight use?" That is a good question."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #220 December 15, 2004 the modern stuff with the SAPI (spelling Ceramic plate inserts) is much more comfortable and provides better protection..... of course i do know people who still put civilian kevlar vests on underneath....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #221 December 15, 2004 Quotethe modern stuff with the SAPI (spelling Ceramic plate inserts) is much more comfortable and provides better protection..... of course i do know people who still put civilian kevlar vests on underneath.... I know a guy that is making tons of money making those. Paraclete. Good guy and from what I have been told the armor is great. I have no need for that stuff anymore, so I don't really know."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #222 December 15, 2004 yup.. and one of Airspeed's sponsors too....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #223 December 15, 2004 Quotethe modern stuff with the SAPI (spelling Ceramic plate inserts) is much more comfortable and provides better protection..... of course i do know people who still put civilian kevlar vests on underneath.... If it's my butt I want everything i can get my hands on. Including someone in front and behind me. Triple protection. Damn RPG's what were we thinking IMO this has been a reality check of the new type of conflicts our troops will be facing in the future. What commies? Need to rethink the plan. This crap is getting old R.i.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #224 December 15, 2004 Damn, this entire thread makes me realize that if you've never worked in DoD acquisition, you'll never understand how it works. There's a place in the middle, between the soldier on the ground (Ron) and the scientist in the lab/industry (Kallend). It's the procurement person. This thread just shows me why my job was so damned impossible and frustrating and unrewarding...imagine having to be the mediator between Ron and Kallend every damned day of your life. It's like trying to explain how we ended up buying a $600 hammer. I know why. I could tell you why. But you wouldn't get it. Thanks to you both for reaffirming my decision to run as far and fast as I could from DoD Acquisitiions!!! Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #225 December 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteWhile I have only met a few, every ATP rated pilot I have ever met has been very familiar with physics. And I would not want to fly with a pilot who did not understand trigonometry. It comes in handy when you are trying to determine heading, fuel, ETA, etc. I would rather fly with a pilot that PROVED he could fly by passing a checkride, than a physics professor that just passed the written. Again the proof is in the actual deed, not the math. Your basic premise is FLAWED in that you seem to be ass-uming that engineers don't test anything. I really don't think you know what an engineer does. I wonder if Paul Tibbets would have preferred to be carrying a bomb designed by pilots and bombardiers, or one designed by physicists. How many tests were done on the Little Boy design?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
