Gun Accidents

[kallend 2,106]

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To keep out of trouble I use my BRAIN instead.

You can do everything right and still die.

Sound familiar?

-
Jim

Applies to life in general. Even to guns.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnRich 4]

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To keep out of trouble I use my BRAIN instead.

You can do everything right and still die.

Applies to life in general. Even to guns.

Then you must acknowledge that using your brain is no guarantee that you can't be robbed or assaulted. Which makes me wonder why made the 1st statement to begin with - you seem to now acknowledge that it is incorrect.

When someone comes at you with a knife and is determined to cut you up, your brain isn't going to be worth shit, unless it's telling you to pull out your gun.

Like this guy.

[masterrig 1]

... and IF, you pull your gun, you shoot to stop. Not to wound or scare 'em. They won't think twice about about slicin' your throat.

[kallend 2,106]

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To keep out of trouble I use my BRAIN instead.

You can do everything right and still die.

Applies to life in general. Even to guns.

Then you must acknowledge that using your brain is no guarantee that you can't be robbed or assaulted. Which makes me wonder why made the 1st statement to begin with - you seem to now acknowledge that it is incorrect.

When someone comes at you with a knife and is determined to cut you up, your brain isn't going to be worth shit, unless it's telling you to pull out your gun.

Like this guy.

You must live a very fearful life.

My brain keeps me out of situations where people come at me with knives. It's not hard, actually.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,070]

>When someone comes at you with a knife and is determined to cut you
> up, your brain isn't going to be worth shit, unless it's telling you to pull
> out your gun.

Years ago I knew a skydiver who worked in a tall building (well, tall by San Diego standards - 12 stories.) He had a window office on the 10th floor. I visited him there and noticed he had his rig in the closet in his office.

"You keep your rig here?" I asked him.

"Yeah, a friend of mine got stuck in a 30 story building once, and I don't want to get stuck."

I pondered that. "You're going to jump out the window if there's a fire?"

"Sure! I don't want to burn to death."

"Did your friend burn to death?"

"No, they put out the fire. But you never know."

Now, this guy had about 100 jumps and was notoriously bad in freefall. He had a Sabre 150 that he couldn't fly very well and a bungee collapsible. He had never BASE jumped, and his gear was totally unsuited for the task. There was no way to open the window anyway.

The underlying reason he had his rig in his office became apparent later, when a co-worker stopped by, saw the rig and asked him about it. "Why yes, that's my rig!" he said proudly. "This guy was my instructor. I'm thinking of planning a trip for people to do tandems, want to come?"

There's no problem with him having anything he wants in his office, whether it's a parachute, a gun or a gila monster. He was part owner of the company, so he could do whatever he wanted. But he had concocted a silly reason to have his rig there so he could show it off. If there is never a fire, no harm done. But if someday there is a fire in his building, and he decides to try to use his rig to jump out the window rather than use his brain and flee the fire, then it might well do him more harm than good. The excuse "Hey, what if I have no choice and the flames are lapping at my back?" was engineered to give him a reason to keep the rig there - which is fine, as long as he doesn't actually use it to do something stupid.

[JohnRich 4]

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You must live a very fearful life.

My brain keeps me out of situations where people come at me with knives. It's not hard, actually.

I don't live in fear at all. Why is it that this is a common reply from everyone that doesn't like guns? Does wearing a seat belt mean that you live in fear when you drive a car? Does having life insurance mean that you live in fear of dying prematurely? Does teaching engineering mean that you live in fear of a engineering disasters?

You must have ignored the story I attached in my last reply to you.

In the news story, how did the homeowner's "brain' keep two armed thugs from breaking into his home at night? It didn't. But his brain did tell him to get his gun and fight back, possibly saving the life of himself and his wife.

Your brain has zero deterrent effect when you're sleeping at night in your home, and a couple of thugs decide to break in. Having a gun for self-defense as a backup to your brain, can be a very good thing.

Lastly, your "brain" comment seems arrogant and egotistical. You make it sound like the thousands of people who are victims of crime each year are somehow stupid, and therefore deserve what they got. That's just plain wrong, and offensive.

I hope your luck holds and you are never a crime victim. But you're setting yourself up for a rude awakening some day.

"A liberal is a just a conservative that hasn't been mugged yet".

[PhillyKev 0]

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brain keeps me out of situations where people come at me with knives. It's not hard, actually.

Not everyone has your brains. And guess what, some people LIVE in situations where they can't avoid it. You know those houses that drug dealers hang out in front of and where street muggings are common place? People live there. I guess if they would just become richer and smarter there wouldn't be an issue, right?

[JohnRich 4]

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Years ago I knew a skydiver who worked in a tall building (well, tall by San Diego standards - 12 stories.) He had a window office on the 10th floor.

That's a nice parable, but comparing keeping a gun in your home for self defense, to an incompetent skydiver who thinks he can parachute out of a 10-story window with a regular skydiving rig, is an invalid apples and oranges comparison.

Guns prove their worth thousands of times per year in self defense. I don't know of anyone who has utilized the scenario you describe in your parable.

[billvon 3,070]

>Guns prove their worth thousands of times per year in self defense.

As would sport parachutes in high rises if there were the same number of parachutes out there as guns. I can think of perhaps two thousand people who might have desired a parachute a few years back.

>I don't know of anyone who has utilized the scenario you describe in your parable.

About ten years back a guy jumped an antenna with the system described (sabre 150, bungee collapsible) and survived. My friend used this story as an example of how it can work.

[PhillyKev 0]

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As would sport parachutes in high rises if there were the same number of parachutes out there as guns. I can think of perhaps two thousand people who might have desired a parachute a few years back

Please don't tell me you're someone who advocates "escape chutes" for untrained people. Even if they all had one, were able to put it on in a panic, were able to deploy properly.....now you have 2000 parachutes in the sky at once.

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About ten years back a guy jumped an antenna with the system described (sabre 150, bungee collapsible) and survived. My friend used this story as an example of how it can work.

Well, then you're invalidating Kallend's point.

[billvon 3,070]

>Please don't tell me you're someone who advocates "escape chutes"
>for untrained people. Even if they all had one, were able to put it on in
>a panic, were able to deploy properly.....now you have 2000 parachutes
>in the sky at once.

I don't advocate them; they make as much sense as wearing a rig on a commercial flight. But my friend (we'll call him by his chosen nickname, loser) used very similar arguments to those I've heard from gun proponents as to why a gun was vital to have. "But what if it's a choice, burn to death or jump? Wouldn't YOU rather have a parachute? You don't want to jump without a parachute, do you?" And broken down to that level, the question is as valid as "but what if there's a knife wielding maniac in your house and he's about to kill your daughter? Wouldn't YOU want to have a gun then?"

Now, I think most anyone should be able to own a gun (or a parachute) for whatever reason they want. But selling guns to homeowners purely for home defense is like selling escape chutes to busy executives in the Sears Tower. Often they will do more harm than good. On the other hand, if it's AggieDave, that gun is probably going to do him a lot of good, and the chances of him killing himself with it are very low. Likewise, if Moe Vileto worked in the Sears Tower, having a rig in his office would leave him an easy way out of a fire.

[PhillyKev 0]

Gotcha. Good points. And I agree that gun owners should take the time and effort to get proper training and practice. That's what's known as being a "responsible" gun owner.

But, I didn't see anything in John's post referencing an irresponsible, untrained, gun owner.

To follow the thought process completely, Kallend said, his brain is sufficient to protect him from a knife wielding maniac. John said a gun is better protection. And it is, for a person who is trained in its use. Just like in your scenario with an escape chute, a parachute for a trained parachutist would be a better option than jumping without one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Now, I think most anyone should be able to own a gun (or a parachute) for whatever reason they want. But selling guns to homeowners purely for home defense is like selling escape chutes to busy executives in the Sears Tower. Often they will do more harm than good.

You have a rather pessimistic notion of the effectiveness of gun ownership compared to the downsides, one that is on a different plane from reality.

Perhaps 1 in 100 (10000?) could effectively use a parachute on the Sears Tower. Whereas 99 could safely use a gun in their home with minimal training. You can criticize my numbers drawn out of thin air, but they're in the right ballpark. A home defense gun is two orders of magnitude more useful to the average American then a parachute in a high rise.

[AndyMan 7]

I think his point is simple.

Life would suck very much indeed if you felt the need to drag a parachute into every base-jumpable building, just in case you needed it.

Likewise,

Life would suck very much indeed if you felt the need to keep firearms in your house, just in case you need it.

Keep your gun if you want, and indeed I really don't care if you keep buying more. Just don't try to justify it using false claims of required security. Even in the worst cities in America, life just isn't that dangerous.

Since there are so many for whom they really think they need such a defence, you have my sympathies. Live must suck pretty badly. It's hard to believe we live in the same country.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[PhillyKev 0]

I don't know, my life seems pretty damn good.

[craddock 0]

Just what is your point? Do you think we should Outlaw Guns because YOU have no use for them? This thread was about Gun Accidents. Why does every thread that concerns guns end up with the Anti gun people explaining why they don't need a gun, and a few Pro-Gun people hammering the right to protect themselves with one.

It's really pretty simple. If you don't want a gun, do not buy a Gun.

On the other side if you want one and are competent to have one, go for it.

I do not understand the issue here. You have said several times one way or another that you feel perfectly safe without a gun (you have a brain) and have never felt a need for one. If that is the case, just what is your issue with others owning guns? They don't seem to pose a threat in your eyes. People just need to use their brains and they won't need one. Great. Simple. So why are you against my guns since they admittedly are not an issue for you?

If you have a legitimate stance against guns that is one thing, but your argument that they are not needed for self defense is quite boring. So what? Most people do not buy guns for self defense anyway.
I myself own quite a few guns. I don't have a loaded gun in the house and do not have one in my bedroom. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that. I wouldn't mind having a fingerprint coded locking nightstand to keep a loaded .40s&w or 9mm. If I ever come across one I like for a good price, I may pick it up. It's not a top priority. I may pick up a 20 gauge over/under real soon though.

You ridicule the 700 gun accidents and imply this is a way to high of a number. We should get rid of guns-heh? We have by far more Skydiving accidents per rig (than gun accident per gun), and you can assume that most of these people go through some sort of formal training and licensing program. How many of these gun accidents are actually accidents? Not all of them.
Owning a gun is much safer than owning a Rig!
Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[billvon 3,070]

>Perhaps 1 in 100 (10000?) could effectively use a parachute on the Sears
>Tower.

Given that a low time jumper took a Sabre 150 with a bungee collapsible off a low tower and survived, I'd put those numbers closer to 7 out of 10 with a BASE rig. And if you design it for whuffos - static line an unmodified round - it would go up to 9 out of 10. And if you added minimal training, it would be quite close to 100% under ideal situations. There's a reason so many people survive their first BASE jump.

>Whereas 99 could safely use a gun in their home with minimal training.

I'd agree there. Under ideal situations and with some training you'd be quite close to 100%.

>A home defense gun is two orders of magnitude more useful to the
>average American then a parachute in a high rise.

Now here's where you change the subject. Previously we were talking about the odds of both _working_ under good circumstances; in both cases the odds are high. But you said "more useful." The odds of grizzly repellent working are probably pretty high as well, but it's simply not that useful to someone who lives in an apartment in Manhattan. Nor is it that useful to someone in the parking lot of Yosemite; walking away from a bear (who is used to people) is far more effective than pulling out a can of repellent and running up to it. However, if you are backcountry camping, it might well be useful.

This is no different. An 'escape chute', while it could certainly work, is just not that useful to most building dwellers, because the odds of it being the best option are really low. If you are in a high building that is likely to catch on fire, a MUCH better way to deal with the risk is to not work in a building that is likely to catch on fire. And if your 'escape chute' makes you think that you are safer in a tinderbox highrise, it makes you less, not more, safe - even though the argument "but what if your choice is to burn to death or to jump?" is still valid. The trick is not getting to the point where that is the choice you have to make.

[Kennedy 0]

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I don't know, my life seems pretty damn good.

No girlfriend at the moment?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

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I don't know, my life seems pretty damn good.

No girlfriend at the moment?

EXACTLY! Well, sort of, but I only see her for a few days every couple of months.

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[kelpdiver 2]

[replyAnd if your 'escape chute' makes you think that you are safer in a tinderbox highrise, it makes you less, not more, safe - even though the argument "but what if your choice is to burn to death or to jump?" is still valid. The trick is not getting to the point where that is the choice you have to make.

[PhillyKev 0]

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And if your 'escape chute' makes you think that you are safer in a tinderbox highrise, it makes you less, not more, safe - even though the argument "but what if your choice is to burn to death or to jump?" is still valid. The trick is not getting to the point where that is the choice you have to make.

Going back again to your earlier example of 2000 people. What should they have done to not get to that point? In other words, you can't think yourself out of everything.

[billvon 3,070]

>What should they have done to not get to that point?

Nothing, other than not work in the highest profile target in Manhattan, a target that a terrorist had tried to take down six years before. But that doesn't change that I don't recommend parachutes to people working in high-rises, because 9/11's and unescapable fires are very rare events, and are best handled by not working in tinderbox buildings. And if they want a parachute, no problem at all - nothing wrong with keeping Adam Filipino in business.

Like I said before, buy a parachute for whatever reason you want, or a gun for whatever reason you want. But descriptions of the desperate situations people get into that absolutely demands they have a gun reminds me of Loser making up scenarios where he had to have that parachute in his office - when "I like having it here" was the real reason.

[JohnRich 4]

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selling guns to homeowners purely for home defense is like selling escape chutes to busy executives in the Sears Tower. Often they will do more harm than good.

The times when it does more harm than good is tiny, compared to the times when the gun is used in a positive manner to stop crime and save lives. On balance, guns are a very positive factor. Yeah, nothing is perfect, but if you took all the guns away, far more harm would be done to the citizenry.

Guns are simple to use: point and pull the trigger. A BASE jump out a building window is far more complicated to accomplish successfully.

For examples of guns used in self defense:

The NRA's "Armed Citizen" files:
http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx

The KABR's "Operation Self Defense" files:
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/opsd/

[JohnRich 4]

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Life would suck very much indeed if you felt the need to keep firearms in your house, just in case you need it.

Life must suck very much indeed if you feel you need to wear a seat belt while driving, just in case you need it.

Life must suck very much indeed if you feel you need to maintain life insurance, just in case your loved ones need it.

Life must suck very much indeed if you feel you need to keep a fire extinguisher in your home, just in case you need it.

Life must suck very much indeed if you feel you need to lug around a reserve parachute, just in case you need it.

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See how silly your statement sounds? Being prepared for life's emergencies does not mean that your life sucks. It's just prudent common sense.

I don't know why you think a self defense gun is any different from any of those other items. It's just gun-o-phobia!

[kallend 2,106]

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Just what is your point? Do you think we should Outlaw Guns because YOU have no use for them?

I very specifically did NOT say anything about outlawing guns. I specifically DID say that I support the 2nd Amendment. So your rant is totally irrelevant.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.