SkyDekker 1,465 #126 December 21, 2004 Quotebut kind of a generalist approach..... Kind of like saying your are proud of your history even if there are some very well documented occurences in your history that most aren't really proud of? Must be hard to see detail through red/blue/white coloured sunglasses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #127 December 21, 2004 The American/Iraqi history books are only in their first few chapters and this story is long from over. But from the way things have been going since major military hostilations have ceased and GWB pronounced victory, it's not going to be a pretty picture for either country. When will some Americans wake up and realized that many people throughout the world do not agree with the American government's foreign policies? This was not a war to rid the world of terrorism as GWB claims it to be. GWB has a different agenda and Iraqi and American lives will continue to be lost as a result of it. This is a sad time for humankind and GWB and his crownies were the ones who started it. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #128 December 21, 2004 QuoteQuotebut kind of a generalist approach..... Kind of like saying your are proud of your history even if there are some very well documented occurences in your history that most aren't really proud of? Must be hard to see detail through red/blue/white coloured sunglasses. Much like saying you shouldn't be proud of your child because they occasionally make mistakes even though overall they turned out ok. Tell that to a parent. I think you guys are taking the word 'pride' to something unhealthy and wierd. whew - you don't know me at all. My sunglasses are grey (gray?) and only $4 off the streets of bangkok (genuine "Oaklers"). You're on a roll today, though, keep it up. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoadRash 0 #129 December 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteOk, so who mentioned Nazis?!? Nobody, I refered back to the eradication of the native americans. Guess some posters had forgotten about that proud moment in north-american history and assumed I made some comparison to nazies. I was being humorous...but if you want the other comments I was going to make...here goes... I'm not proud of the fact that our country systematically killed and relocated thousands upon thousands of Native Americans...I'm not proud of the fact that my family owned slaves...but it happened...I'm curious...do you know who the Ainu is without automatically going to Google? Did you know that Japan did the same thing with the "natives" of that land...? There are aspects/events of the American past that no one is really proud of...however...I believe that I am proud of the principals/beliefs that it was founded upon...What country in this world is proud of everything that their country has done or will do in the future...? I'm disgusted by the people who hate this country and who were born here and complain all day and never lift a finger to even attempt to make changes...I dislike people who don't bother to vote... I think that until Americans get off our fat asses and shake up the government and make changes...nothing will be accomplished...Does that mean that I should automatically bad mouth the president and that I participate in subversive politics? No...it means that I am going to use my rights granted to me by the constitution and make some changes... So get up from your computers and do something...I did...... ~R+R...And no, I won't post what I did......~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #130 December 21, 2004 QuoteDid you know that Japan did the same thing with the "natives" of that land...? This is what I think most people forget - almost any country in the world has probably done something 'bad' at one point or another. (it's funny, I even used the child analogy with someone the other day talking about this) I think that the majority of the American population though, tend to forget what we've actually done. It's blind patriotism. We haven't learned anything from our mistakes. Or at least, not enough of us have. I think that's a completely different subject though than other's perceptions of us. Americans tend to be arrogant and act that way. It is embarassing at times. Yes, talk louder and slower to the stupid German, then he'll understand you. There's a reason people who notice that will sew a maple leaf to their backpack instead of an American flag when in other countries.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #131 December 21, 2004 Well done, Rehmwa. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #132 December 21, 2004 not well done, this whole thread is just another series of stereotypes. it's nuts ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #133 December 21, 2004 QuoteReagan, Clinton, and Bush all had the popular vote. Try again. You try again Ron. We do not popularly elect our President.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #134 December 21, 2004 QuoteMuch like saying you shouldn't be proud of your child because they occasionally make mistakes even though overall they turned out ok. It depends on your perception of occasionally, the severity of the mistakes and your definition of ok. If you're an environmentalist, you probably wouldn't think of the US as okay. If you were a falsely accused African American put in jail, you probably wouldn't think of it as okay. Also, just because other countries have had negative histories doesn't make our any better.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LearningTOfly 0 #135 December 21, 2004 Speaking about history... history is a funny thing- it's generally written by the group that managed to win the conflict- so for the most part we gain a biased account of whatever event it was when we take information from general issue school textbooks and such. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #136 December 21, 2004 QuoteMe, too. I just happened to be born in America, and my family just happens to live here. If I was born in Ireland, I would be any less fortunate to the country that I lived in. They have certain advantages over America. If someone gets killed in America or anywhere else, it makes me equally sad. No, I really don't understand why people are "proud" to be Americans. Other countries have freedoms we don't have and vice versa. America just happens to be the place where I grew up. Many of the things that my parents' taxes paid for while growing up I could've received elsewhere. It may be a great country, but there are others. It's not the best country in the world. It has advantages over other countries, but they have advantages over us. You realize how frustrating it is to have constantly make my points, only much more eloquently than I can? Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #137 December 21, 2004 That has to be the first time someone has said that what I said was eloquent!There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #138 December 21, 2004 QuoteMaybe his intent, but its not what he said. Here is what I said, Ron: QuoteAs far as I am aware we do not have a popularly elected leader in this country, and never have. Be so kind as to point out all the presidents that have been popularly elected instead of voted into office by the electoral College, or replacing an incapcitated or otherwise unavailable President. Just one, Ron? The popular vote for President was designed by the FF to be a barometer of popular opinion, and not the last word on the election process.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #139 December 21, 2004 QuoteIs it? As far as I am aware we do not have a popularly elected leader in this country, and never have. They had the majority. They had the POPULAR vote. We use the electoral system, but they had the popular vote. You ned to get over Kerry losing and moveon(.org) already."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #140 December 21, 2004 QuoteI, for the record, am extremely proud to be an American and am very proud of my country's history. All of it Tuna? You don't see any low points? The slaughter of the Native Americans? Half the country splitting off so they could maintain the *right* (their term, not mine) to own other people? It doesn't bother you that We are the only country to EVER drop a nuclear bomb on another country, and we did it twice, onto populated cities. That doesn't bother you? Or how about the War on Drugs? Talk about government sponsored BS propaganda. How about Viet Nam? How many lives and how much money would have been saved if we had just given Viet Nam the aid money they had asked for, so they could afford to take care of their own problem. Avoid that whole Domino Theory nonsense. Oops. It very difficult indeed to imagine an objective minded American that is proud of everything his country has done. Our nation has not been any more immune from problems and mistakes than any other. I believe it was Thamas Payne who said, "An honest historian has no country."Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #141 December 21, 2004 QuoteI, for the record, am extremely proud to be an American and am very proud of my country's history. You can't be serious. You are actually comparing the love/pride a parent has for their child with pride in your Nations history?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #142 December 21, 2004 Quoteand we did it twice, Many people here believe the second bomb was justified (I got in that argument before.) America's history is full of gross acts done because of greed and power. One main theme throughout our history is propaganda, fear and patriotism to control the masses. There are things I am proud of. I am proud of the times the underdog has made great changes in the country.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #143 December 21, 2004 QuoteSo get up from your computers and do something...I did.. Todays world of broadband and Google are what make it poosible for individuals to stay informed and make a difference from their computers, if the so choose. I am definitely proud of all the dissenters, who take enough pride in their country to stand up and point out their government is wrong. It sickens me all the people who are so proud of their country, but so intolerant of dissent. That is hate and fear, plain and simple, and those are two ideaologies I just cannot stand.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #144 December 21, 2004 QuoteYou ned to get over Kerry losing and moveon(.org) already. I try, but you keep bringing it up.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #145 December 21, 2004 QuoteMany people here believe the second bomb was justified (I got in that argument before.) Of course it was justified...It ended the war with less loss of life than an invasion. They were not going to surrender. An invasion would have cost the lives of around 500,000 Allied troops and countless Japanese lives. The only reason they did surrender was the Emperor asked them to once he realize dthat the situation was hopeless. They thought we had 100 of those bombs when in truth we only had the two. Otherwise they were unable to surrender due to the Congress not being able to get a 100% vote. This is basic history here. QuoteAmerica's history is full of gross acts done because of greed and power. One main theme throughout our history is propaganda, fear and patriotism to control the masses. Everyone's history is full of that. I choose to believe that the good in this country out weighs the bad."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #146 December 21, 2004 QuoteEveryone's history is full of that. Some more than others. Also, (as I stated before) just because everyone else has problems doesn't mean we should be proud of ours. QuoteI choose to believe that the good in this country out weighs the bad. I agree. The good does outweigh the bad. The good outweighs the bad in many countries.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #147 December 21, 2004 QuoteThey were not going to surrender. I heard from a VERY learned scholar, whose father, incidentally, worked on the Manhattan Project, that we were indeed offered unconditional surrender before we dropped the first bomb on Hiroshima. While I have yet to see a corroborating source, based on past reliability of information, it is very difficult to dismiss the claim. Remember, Ron. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #148 December 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteYou also aren't proud of your country's history either. I, for the record, am extremely proud to be an American and am very proud of my country's history. Doesn't surprise me you are proud of the systematic eradication of a race. Dekker FYI - There are more native americans now than there were when the Pilgrim showed up!!!!! Also, before spouting off on the Native americans, maybe you should do some reading on the real history of European whites in american and the Native americans.... You obviously don't know much about the situation!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #149 December 21, 2004 Quote heard from a VERY learned scholar, whose father, incidentally, worked on the Manhattan Project, that we were indeed offered unconditional surrender before we dropped the first bomb on Hiroshima. Japan did offer to surrender, but not unconditionally. The one condition they insisted on was to allow the Emperor to retain power. We of course, dismissed that notion, bombed the hell out of them (so we could dangle nuclear power over the heads of the world) and then when the did UNconditionally surrender, graciously allowed the Emperor to remain in power. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #150 December 21, 2004 Quote All of it Tuna? You don't see any low points? The slaughter of the Native Americans? Half the country splitting off so they could maintain the *right* (their term, not mine) to own other people? It doesn't bother you that We are the only country to EVER drop a nuclear bomb on another country, and we did it twice, onto populated cities. That doesn't bother you? No. Tell me why the nuclear bombing was any more cruel or inhumane than the firebombing of Toyko, which killed just as many people? War is hell, you know? And let's not forget that Japan brought this upon themselves. They wanted to expand, they killed tens of millions of Chinese and no small number of Americans and other citizens trying. They lost. No apologies are necessary to them. They are to the interned Japanese Americans, who were belated given that along with some reparations. Not really even, but still a hell of a lot more than Japan has delivered to those it killed or injured in the conflict. For all the talk about how arrogant Americans are, we actually detail our sins in our childrens' history books. Do we tell the whole story? Of course not. The drive to use the nukes was in no small part to end the war quickly before Russia could claim some of Japan as war booty. But we don't deny the event ever happened. Ask Toyko if anything ever happened at Nanking. Quote I believe it was Thamas Payne who said, "An honest historian has no country." If you can only view every country as a sinner, sure. Very Protestant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
