Have we become what we fear?

[jcd11235 0]

Have we become what we most fear in this country? There seems to be a lack of honest debate among our citizens right now. And our media is silent when we need it the most. Elections free of corruption are something we only hear about in other countries, these days.
Dissenters are labeled unAmerican, or worse yet, terrorists or terrorist sympathisers. There seems to be little difference between the scare tactics of Shrub's administration and the anti-communism hysteria of McCarthyism in the fifties.
We have adopted a foreign policy that relies on preemptive invasions to eliminate imagined threats. While we are engaged in a war on terrorism, against phantom enemies, we are littering the countryside of the countries we invade with Uranium, and other radioactive metals found in our Depleted Uranium ammunition. To say nothing of the thouseands of Iraqi civilians, not insurgents, that our military operations have already killed.
We have less credibility with the international community than anytime in the past hundred years or more. It's as if we expect to be the only country that is exempt from the authority of the U.N.
Is our government (not to be confused with our Constitution) really any better than those they claim to be protecting us from?

What has to happen before we take responsibility for our government's actions?



http://www.counterpunch.org/shivani1026.htm

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

http://www.makethemaccountable.com/podvin/media/040627_MaximizingShareholderValue.htm

http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp

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[TheAnvil 0]

You should read the news a bit more often.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[jcd11235 0]

I spend a couple hours a day with the news. Are you saying I should spend four?

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[TheAnvil 0]

Perhaps four is necessary for some folks...you might be one of them. Perhaps not. Up to you. You seem to be hearing what you want to hear from the news then taking selected tidbits from it to make what you hear conform to what you believe.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[rmsmith 1]

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Have we become what we most fear in this country?

Hey, we only consume about 40% of the world's resources...using borrowed money!

[jcd11235 0]

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Perhaps four is necessary for some folks...you might be one of them. Perhaps not. Up to you. You seem to be hearing what you want to hear from the news then taking selected tidbits from it make what you hear conform to what you believe.

Okay. Inform me. Defend your President and his Adminastrations actions. What makes him different than the fascists? Give me some honest argument and examples, not the same conspiricy theory BS disregard. Do you stay informed? How much time do you devote each day to current events? Who was the last U.S. President to pardon a known convicted terrorist?
If there is a legitimate reason these accusations don't make the mainstream media, I would love to hear what it is, but until I hear a substantial argument in Shrub's defense, I have to assume he has none. If I am wrong, by all means, bring the facts to our attention. But don't dismiss the question out of hand.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[TheAnvil 0]

Ahh well...you did ask for it...I'm a bit bored right now and need a break from my home-owner chores anyway. FYI, I am quite up on current events, read the Economist weekly, every issue of Foreign Affairs, occasional issues of Wilson Quarterly and several other publications in addition to regular news from the networks - FOX and the leftist CNN as well.

Accusing me of conspiracy theory after such a post. Quite humorous.

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Have we become what we most fear in this country?

And what do we most fear in this country? I assume you mean a repressive dictatorship. Leftists do revel in accusing Bush of being such a person - all evidence to the contrary.

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There seems to be a lack of honest debate among our citizens right now.

The above quote makes me wonder if you've been watching the news at all.

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And our media is silent when we need it the most.

Again - on exactly what subject is it silent?

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Elections free of corruption are something we only here about in other countries, these days.

Ahhh...is this another inane GWB stole the election barb? That's just funny as hell. He won the 2000 election. He won the 2004 election too. Get over it.

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Dissenters are labeled unAmerican, or worse yet, terrorists or terrorist sympathisers.

Examples, please. Note that many consider socialists unAmerican, so labelling some - but definitely not all - democrats as unAmerican isn't a new thing.

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There seems to be little difference between the scare tactics of Shrub's administration and the anti-communism hysteria of McCarthyism in the fifties.

Do you really know anything about McCarthyism?

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We have adopted a foreign policy that relies on preemptive invasions to eliminate imagined threats.

Imagined threats? All the intelligence was made up? Fictitious? And you were implying I resort to conspiracy theory BS? In the spirit of the season - bah! Humbug!

Your use of the plural 'countries' is also a bit humorous. Tell me - what countries other than Iraq and Afghanistan have we invaded? Do we plan to invade? Cookie cutters are for baking, not foreign policy.

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While we are engaged in a war on terrorism, against phantom enemies, we are littering the countryside of the countries we invade with Uranium, and other radioactive metals found in our Depleted Uranium ammunition.

Ahhh...this is a bit humorous. The US military has been using such munitions for years. Years. Years. Should spitballs be the munition of choice instead? They're non-radioactive for the most part.

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To say nothing of the thouseands of Iraqi civilians, not insurgents, that our military operations have already killed.

And in which war have there been no civilian casualties? This sentence just doesn't really fit in the with the rest of your paragraph.

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We have less credibility with the international community than anytime in the past hundred years or more.

You socilize with foreign leaders frequently and know this for a fact? Probably not, but you never know who posts here.

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It's as if we expect to be the only country that is exempt from the authority of the U.N.

And exactly what authority does the U.N. have? And how do you come to such a conclusion?

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Is our government (not to be confused with our Constitution) really any better than those they claim to be protecting us from?

Absolutely - for myriad reasons.

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What has to happen before we take responsibility for our government's actions?

In case you missed the recent elections, the majority of voters who voted preferred the current President to the socialist alternative. What sort of responsibility are you recommending that we take? Humorous.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[cvfd1399 0]

I dont read up as much as I should and I am young. I like G.B, and I love this country, but I think it is all going to hell.

[craddock 0]

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Have we become what we most fear in this country? There seems to be a lack of honest debate among our citizens right now. And our media is silent when we need it the most. Elections free of corruption are something we only hear about in other countries, these days.

You need to fill in your profile or define "this country". I will assume the US

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Okay. Inform me. Defend your President and his Adminastrations actions.

hmm.... Where do you live?

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[EBSB52 0]

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Perhaps four is necessary for some folks...you might be one of them. Perhaps not. Up to you. You seem to be hearing what you want to hear from the news then taking selected tidbits from it make what you hear conform to what you believe.

Okay. Inform me. Defend your President and his Adminastrations actions. What makes him different than the fascists? Give me some honest argument and examples, not the same conspiricy theory BS disregard. Do you stay informed? How much time do you devote each day to current events? Who was the last U.S. President to pardon a known convicted terrorist?
If there is a legitimate reason these accusations don't make the mainstream media, I would love to hear what it is, but until I hear a substantial argument in Shrub's defense, I have to assume he has none. If I am wrong, by all means, bring the facts to our attention. But don't dismiss the question out of hand.

Don't expect most people, in this forum or elsewhere, to understand Fascism. Also, don't expect more than one-liners from your post; the conservative agenda isn't willing to or feels they need to defend themselves. I've beat my head agaist a wall for years and have come to the conclusion that things will not change, but only exacerbate, so the answer is to leave. This countyr is bordering on being a piece of crap, so just get out. The cons here or elsewhere aren't going to reason what's going on and I guess they don't have to.

As for America beingFascist, Imperialist, and even having shades of Communism and Naziism - of course. We have become what we defeated in WWII and the only way for it to end is the same way it ended with them; someone outside will have to kick our asses. I'm not hoping for it, I just want to leave so I don't have to care. The US was a great country before WWII, but now we have adopted the ills that drove us to rectify our then enemies. I think that how the world's different countries stay equalized; they take turns rising to power and keep each other in check. Look at the Romans, they rose to power and became complacent. The neo-Romans (US) has risen to power to become overbearing and hated by the world, so the next chapter is yet to be written.

[jcd11235 0]

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Accusing me of conspiracy theory after such a post. Quite humorous.

That is not at all what I meant. I meant you were dismissing my questions as those of a conspiracy theorist. I am simply asking questions that I feel, in light of current events, need to be asked. This is a democracy, and such intelligent discussion is what allows us to make intelligent decisions at the voting booth.

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And what do we most fear in this country? I assume you mean a repressive dictatorship. Leftists do revel in accusing Bush of being such a person - all evidence to the contrary.

I keep hearing about this evidence, but I never do see any of it, only right wing rhetoric, such that might be found on FOX, which I would not consider a credible source. http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/11.html
That aside, I was not claiming you were not informed.

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The above quote makes me wonder if you've been watching the news at all.

My homepage is http://news.google.com. I check it often. I try to get at least three versions of each story, including, when possible, the New York Times and the Washington Post. But, I am not afraid of independent media. Of course, you have to consider the source. You are not likely to get an unbiased story from either Rense or National Review, but that does not mean that neither one has a shred of credible information.

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Again - on exactly what subject is it silent?

How abought the plight of the Palestinians? Or the fact that Desert Storm has produced more permanently disabled vets than WWII. Or the fact that Fox now has a judicial precedent to distort the truth in their stories to the point on mistruth?Or how about...
http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/index.html

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Ahhh...is this another inane GWB stole the election barb? That's just funny as hell. He won the 2000 election. He won the 2004 election too. Get over it.

Maybe your man won legitimately, maybe he didn't. Either way, there were widespead voting irregularities from which the effects were so one sided, it is difficult for a critically thinking individual to dismiss as anything short of fraud.
You must have missed http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp
Also check out http://blackboxvoting.org Many election officials are being quite uncooperative with audit and recount requests and procedures, which is not a shining example of free elections.

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Do you really know anything about McCarthyism?

You mean Ethyl and Julius Rosenberg, and the infamouse partial Jell-O box onto which our dearest neclear secrets were sketched, right? Or are you referring to when Nixon, without specifically naming McCarthy, called on him to stop his witchhunt? Or are you referring to the media outing McCarthy as a homosexual? How much do you know about McCarthyism?

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Imagined threats? All the intelligence was made up? Fictitious?

Saddam was just rolling in WMD, wasn't he? Fact is, the only WMD in Iraq are our depleted Uranium ammunitions. And instead of admitting his mistake like a leader of integrity, Shrub just changed his public reason for the war.

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The US military has been using such munitions for years. Years. Years. Should spitballs be the munition of choice instead? They're non-radioactive for the most part.

I wish that were true. But, sadly...http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/4.html
I could give you lots more links, but I won't. Use Google. But the idea that "they're non radioactive for the most part" is wholly unfounded by any scientific standard. How are Uranium, plutonium, and a few other -iums considered non radioactive?

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And in which war have there been no civilian casualties?

So, let me get this straight. We are killing the Iraqis for their own good? Again, this is the part I feel might be a lie on the part of Shrub and his posse. If you can show me how this is good for the people, to die by bomb or tumor, I will happily listen.

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And exactly what authority does the U.N. have? And how do you come to such a conclusion?

Have you read the National Security Stategy? If not...http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.pdf Or perhaps you forgot that the UN sanctions and weopons inspectors worked. There was no need to invade. There was certainly not an iminent threat. Why did we invade? This question has yet to be satisfactorily answered.

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We have less credibility with the international community than anytime in the past hundred years or more.
You socilize with foreign leaders frequently and know this for a fact? Probably not, but you never know who posts here.

No, I don't socialize with foreign leaders. Nor did I say anything about foreign leaders. I do, however, discuss politics with foreign nationals every chance I get. I don't know if you have ever been to Deland, but it a most unusual place. You can stay in one place, and the world travels around you. I can no longer count all the different countries my friends are from. How many international citizens do you discuss politics with in a typical day?

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And exactly what authority does the U.N. have? And how do you come to such a conclusion?

You have heard of the Security Council, right? Why is it that we expect Iraq to obey Security Council resolution, etc., but we veto any objective reolution that might affect us in a negative way. That is hypocrisy.

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Absolutely - for myriad reasons.

I am asking you for examples? Haven't you any?

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In case you missed the recent elections, the majority of voters who voted preferred the current President to the socialist alternative. What sort of responsibility are you recommending that we take? Humorous.

I would think that in a free country, we, as citizens, should be outraged at election fraud, to say nothing of any of the other issues.

I am not trying to tear down Republicans. I want a real and substantial debate over issues that I feel need to be discussed. All your reply did was to avoid facing accusations. If you can defend your President, please do, but unsupported opinion is not productive.

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[LearningTOfly 0]

Right on dude... that's the truth. It's all downhill from here.

[jcd11235 0]

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You need to fill in your profile or define "this country". I will assume the US

Sorry. U.S.

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[TheAnvil 0]

Evidence the US is NOT a repressive dictatorship? Let's see...you were able to make your post about the president and haven't been thrown in jail yet and won't be - for that at any rate...people protest the president all the time and aren't thrown in jail...the democrats told so many lies about Ashcroft, Chuck Pickering, and GWB during 2000-2004 it wasn't even funny and none of them are in jail for it...I could go on with many other examples. You feel repressed? That's your problem.

If you consider the Palestinian plight headline news then you haven't been watching the news at all - they're on weekly at a minimum. There have been numerous programs on disabled vets from desert storm and the war on terror, vividly showing amputated appendages, prosthetics, and the like. You must have missed them. Don't worry - they're sure to do a follow up.

Your 'widespread voting irregularities' site was humorous. I didn't read about the fellow being given crack to register voters in OH for some odd reason. No election is perfect nor will any ever be. Claiming the US hasn't free elections is just asinine. Sour grapes from leftists. Nothing more.

You claim McCarthyism on the part of the Bush administration and have yet given no examples other than your accusations. Anytime you're ready. I've read more than a bit about Mr. McCarthy and look so forward to seeing examples of Bush's administration emulating his methods.

My non-radioactive comment was obviously in reference to spitballs. Again - the US MILITARY HAS BEEN USING SUCH ROUNDS FOR YEARS. THAT INCLUDES UNDER CARTER AND EL JEFE CLINTONISTA. IT WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO. ROUNDS ARE EXPENDED IN WAR.

Again - which war has yielded no civilian casualties?

Socialize with anyone you like. I speak with foreigners frequently and was at DeLand today. I normally don't talk politics at the DZ, but if you do, then good for you.

This inane obsession liberals have about why we invaded Iraq is fascinating. WE HAD INTELLIGENCE - THE BEST INTELLIGENCE OUR NATION COULD PRODUCE - TELLING US THE MAN HAD WMD's. WE GAVE HIM WMDs IN THE 80'S. INTELLIGENCE IS NEVER 100% ACCURATE. WE INVADED. WE'RE THERE AND WON'T BE LEAVING FOR SOME TIME.

You then go back to the U.N. and instead of telling me what authority it has, complain about the U.S. using its veto power to further its own interests. I fail to see your point.

With regards to why the U.S. is better than any repressive regime we've supplanted as of late, here are a few:

freedom of the press
freedom of religion (try that in Taliban ruled Afghanistan)
freedom of speech
no burkas for women
no beheadings of criminals
no chopping of the hand(s) for theft

oh...I could so go on...

Looking so forward to hearing how GWB is like Joe McCarthy.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[jcd11235 0]

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Evidence the US is NOT a repressive dictatorship? Let's see...you were able to make your post about the president and haven't been thrown in jail yet and won't be - for that at any rate...people protest the president all the time and aren't thrown in jail.

I may not be in jail, but thanks to the Patriot Act, my electronic communications could be monotored without my knowledge. As for people not going to jail for protesting Shrub? Guess again. Has happened more than once. Here's one example http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=16824&c=86. Also see http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=14450&c=206

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If you consider the Palestinian plight headline news then you haven't been watching the news at all - they're on weekly at a minimum.

What I am referring to is the Israeli bias the situation gets. Ever wonder why the Israeli fighters are referred to as soldiers, while the Palestinian fighters are called militants or terrorists. Is there really a difference between what they do to one another, except that Israel does a lot more of it? Sorry, I must have missed the special on the disabled vets. I see it made a big impression. Is there any plan to discontinue use of the depleted uranium?

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Your 'widespread voting irregularities' site was humorous. I didn't read about the fellow being given crack to register voters in OH for some odd reason. No election is perfect nor will any ever be. Claiming the US hasn't free elections is just asinine. Sour grapes from leftists. Nothing more.

Again, you are dismissing accusations out of hand without offering any supporting evidence. The electronic voting machines are a joke, and an insult to any voter who expects his vote to be counted. If it sounds like I'm a little bitter, well its because the early voting tally got effed up, so my vote probably didn't get counted.

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You claim McCarthyism on the part of the Bush administration and have yet given no examples other than your accusations. Anytime you're ready. I've read more than a bit about Mr. McCarthy and look so forward to seeing examples of Bush's administration emulating his methods.

I've studied McCarthy a bit myself, but I have no intention of turning this into a pissing match. The fact of the matter is that McCarthism was nothing more than a witchhunt for anyone that was not a capitalist in their economic ideology. Or was gay, or anything else deemed "unAmerican."

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My non-radioactive comment was obviously in reference to spitballs. Again - the US MILITARY HAS BEEN USING SUCH ROUNDS FOR YEARS. THAT INCLUDES UNDER CARTER AND EL JEFE CLINTONISTA. IT WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO. ROUNDS ARE EXPENDED IN WAR.

Does that make it right? We know they are nasty things for mankind, and continue to kill long after the war is over. Why should we not be held accountable for the use of DU munitions?

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This inane obsession liberals have about why we invaded Iraq is fascinating. WE HAD INTELLIGENCE - THE BEST INTELLIGENCE OUR NATION COULD PRODUCE - TELLING US THE MAN HAD WMD's. WE GAVE HIM WMDs IN THE 80'S. INTELLIGENCE IS NEVER 100% ACCURATE. WE INVADED. WE'RE THERE AND WON'T BE LEAVING FOR SOME TIME.

We went prematurely, without good intelligence. We did not allow the weapons Inspectors to remain and complete their jobs. There was no immediate threat. I'm failing to see a just motivation. Seems a lot like neo-colonialism, i.e. fascism. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

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Again - which war has yielded no civilian casualties?

This war was unnecessary, by the reasons Shrub gave for going.The killing of civilians serves no purpose in this war. They are the ones we are supposed to be protecting. I fail to see the logic of your justification.

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Socialize with anyone you like. I speak with foreigners frequently and was at DeLand today. I normally don't talk politics at the DZ, but if you do, then good for you.

Not at the DZ, usually.

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WE GAVE HIM WMDs IN THE 80'S.

And you don't see the hypocrisy?

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freedom of the press

But the press is not living up to its responsibilities.

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freedom of speech

I can remember Whitehouse Spokesman Ari Fleisher warning that Americans should "watch what they say." Now I'm not a lawyer, but that doesn't sound like Shrub and his stooge Ashcroft are too concerned with free speech.

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freedom of religion

Know any shamen? They probably are not openly so, as entheogen use is generally illegal, even though the use is religous. How about the Rastafari among us? What happens if they light up in thanks of Jah on the Courthouse steps? I won't even bring up the persecution of Muslims.

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no burkas for women

Of course, we don't pay them as much, so we really don't treat them equally, right?

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no beheadings of criminals

As though electrocution, gas chamber, or lethal injection are any better.

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no chopping of the hand(s) for theft

We may not chop off hands, but we imprison a higher percentage of our population than any other country in the world. Again, that sounds more like fascism, and not a free country.

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oh...I could so go on...

As could I, but if you aren't going to give me more than rhetoric, please don't. I established this thread looking for evidence why the current adminastration is different than the bad guys.

My theory is that it is Jungian Projection of the shadow, and thus, enantiodromia has taken place.

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[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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You seem to be hearing what you want to hear from the news then taking selected tidbits from it to make what you hear conform to what you believe.

Funny thing about something as subjective as that - you could say the same thing about you.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[EBSB52 0]

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the democrats told so many lies about Ashcroft, Chuck Pickering, and GWB during 2000-2004 it wasn't even funny and none of them are in jail for it...I could go on with many other examples. You feel repressed? That's your problem.

If you consider the Palestinian plight headline news then you haven't been watching the news at all - they're on weekly at a minimum. There have been numerous programs on disabled vets from desert storm and the war on terror, vividly showing amputated appendages, prosthetics, and the like. You must have missed them. Don't worry - they're sure to do a follow up.

Your 'widespread voting irregularities' site was humorous. I didn't read about the fellow being given crack to register voters in OH for some odd reason. No election is perfect nor will any ever be. Sour grapes from leftists. Nothing more.



My non-radioactive comment was obviously in reference to spitballs. Again - the US MILITARY HAS BEEN USING SUCH ROUNDS FOR YEARS. THAT INCLUDES UNDER CARTER AND EL JEFE CLINTONISTA. IT WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO. ROUNDS ARE EXPENDED IN WAR.



Socialize with anyone you like. I speak with foreigners frequently and was at DeLand today. I normally don't talk politics at the DZ, but if you do, then good for you.



You then go back to the U.N. and instead of telling me what authority it has, complain about the U.S. using its veto power to further its own interests. I fail to see your point.

With regards to why the U.S. is better than any repressive regime we've supplanted as of late, here are a few:



oh...I could so go on...

Looking so forward to hearing how GWB is like Joe McCarthy.

"Evidence the US is NOT a repressive dictatorship? Let's see...you were able to make your post about the president and haven't been thrown in jail yet and won't be - for that at any rate...people protest the president all the time and aren't thrown in jail..."

Try that with a judge. The immunity is transferred to judges, so the Monarchical immunity isn't with the King/Queen but the real rulers, the judges. And yes, you will be lynched if you say anything about a judge. Hell, try slamming a cop, that'll work too. Many lawyers refuse to sue cops, some are ballsy enough tho.

"Claiming the US hasn't free elections is just asinine."

Where are the personal attack police when you need them?

"You claim McCarthyism on the part of the Bush administration and have yet given no examples other than your accusations. Anytime you're ready. I've read more than a bit about Mr. McCarthy and look so forward to seeing examples of Bush's administration emulating his methods."

I don't know tons about McCarthy and the correlations to Bush, but would you entertain arguments and comparisons to Fascism? Don't make me research and post if you're going to summarily pick over the points; you must promise to answer them all as will I answer all counterclaims.

Again - which war has yielded no civilian casualties?

Which wars were fought w/o cause? Korean, Viet Nam, Gulf, Iraq, and more smaller wars I'm sure.

This inane obsession liberals have about why we invaded Iraq is fascinating. WE HAD INTELLIGENCE - THE BEST INTELLIGENCE OUR NATION COULD PRODUCE - TELLING US THE MAN HAD WMD's. WE GAVE HIM WMDs IN THE 80'S. INTELLIGENCE IS NEVER 100% ACCURATE. WE INVADED. WE'RE THERE AND WON'T BE LEAVING FOR SOME TIME.

Right, we're right, most ofthe rest of the world is wrong. Mmmmhhhm. Uh, and since you guys rely on the ends justifying the means....oops, you're wrong. I will give the cons credit for not flying in the WMD's in a C-130 at 3am. Oh well, there's still time.

So, what does a reasonable entity do when they're wrong? Do they undo the error? Yes. Now that we realized we were wrong aboutthe WMD's, why not restore the country and bow out? Not change their ideology and political structure, but restore things the way they were. Noooo, ya see, that gives us away - we went in to change the countries government and political structure. The rest of the world knows that, but the US cons don't. Naw, they do, but the facade must continue to justify the Imperialism.

freedom of the press
freedom of religion (try that in Taliban ruled Afghanistan)
freedom of speech
no burkas for women
no beheadings of criminals
no chopping of the hand(s) for theft

Are you joking? You comapre the US with actions of countries like China and many Middle Eastern countries to suppport your, "the US is a great place" argument. Hey, here's an idea, why not compare us to Scandinavian countries? How about many countries in Europe. Hell, even compare us to the former USSR, they don't even kill their citizens anymore. That is a skewed argument to compare us to the worst of the worst, but I see how you could do that considering that there are like 8 countries in the world that still kids people for juvenile crimes - maybe you're right on track.

[rushmc 23]

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Have we become what we most fear in this country? There seems to be a lack of honest debate among our citizens right now. And our media is silent when we need it the most. Elections free of corruption are something we only hear about in other countries, these days.
Dissenters are labeled unAmerican, or worse yet, terrorists or terrorist sympathisers. There seems to be little difference between the scare tactics of Shrub's administration and the anti-communism hysteria of McCarthyism in the fifties.
We have adopted a foreign policy that relies on preemptive invasions to eliminate imagined threats. While we are engaged in a war on terrorism, against phantom enemies, we are littering the countryside of the countries we invade with Uranium, and other radioactive metals found in our Depleted Uranium ammunition. To say nothing of the thouseands of Iraqi civilians, not insurgents, that our military operations have already killed.
We have less credibility with the international community than anytime in the past hundred years or more. It's as if we expect to be the only country that is exempt from the authority of the U.N.
Is our government (not to be confused with our Constitution) really any better than those they claim to be protecting us from?

What has to happen before we take responsibility for our government's actions?



http://www.counterpunch.org/shivani1026.htm

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

http://www.makethemaccountable.com/podvin/media/040627_MaximizingShareholderValue.htm

http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp

Where does one start?

I guess the easy way is to say I disagree with all of your post. Mostly the unAmerican and debate part.

The left called "themselves" unAmerican and tried to pin the label maker as if it came from the right. They did this to try and put themselves on the political high road. (Hillery in particular). IMHO

Once again we have some one here that thinks because the majority of those involved in politics don't agree with them, the majority therefore is uninformed, stupid or both

Dam frustrating if you ask me

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[TheAnvil 0]

Ahhhh...I see you aren't going to give me examples of how GWB's tactics are similar to McCarthy's. I was so looking forward to it. Oh darn. The thought ever cross your mind that men in thongs might be considered indecent for public display by a lot of people?

You wonder why Palestinian gunmen aren't referred to as soldiers? Give me a break. Perhaps because soldiers don't break into compounds at night a kill children and terrorists do? Or perhaps because soldiers don't go into cafes and blow themselves and closeby women/children/innocents to smithereens? Could either of those be reasons?

Why the hell SHOULD the US cease using depleted uranium rounds? Because YOU say so, we'll just get rid of our ammo stockpiles and have more instantly appear? Not going to happen, nor should it.

We did give Saddam Hussein WMDs in the '80's. There was this minor[sic] incident with our embassy in Iran, this minor[sic] spat known as the Cold War, and a few other foreign policy things going on at the time that served as an impetus for the gift. Cookie cutters are for baking, not foreign policy.

To what persecution of Muslims are you referring? Raiding the offices of losers sending funds to Hezbollah under the guise of charity? Whatever. Think that's persecution if it makes you feel better.
How many Jewish synagogues are in Palestinian controlled territories? Zero? Thank you.

The press not living up to it's responsibilities? I'll agree with you there. By leaning so far to the left CNN et al really do the country a disservice.

You got a problem with criminals being in jail? That's your problem - deal with it.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[EBSB52 0]

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Have we become what we most fear in this country? There seems to be a lack of honest debate among our citizens right now. And our media is silent when we need it the most. Elections free of corruption are something we only hear about in other countries, these days.
Dissenters are labeled unAmerican, or worse yet, terrorists or terrorist sympathisers. There seems to be little difference between the scare tactics of Shrub's administration and the anti-communism hysteria of McCarthyism in the fifties.
We have adopted a foreign policy that relies on preemptive invasions to eliminate imagined threats. While we are engaged in a war on terrorism, against phantom enemies, we are littering the countryside of the countries we invade with Uranium, and other radioactive metals found in our Depleted Uranium ammunition. To say nothing of the thouseands of Iraqi civilians, not insurgents, that our military operations have already killed.
We have less credibility with the international community than anytime in the past hundred years or more. It's as if we expect to be the only country that is exempt from the authority of the U.N.
Is our government (not to be confused with our Constitution) really any better than those they claim to be protecting us from?

What has to happen before we take responsibility for our government's actions?



http://www.counterpunch.org/shivani1026.htm

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

http://www.makethemaccountable.com/podvin/media/040627_MaximizingShareholderValue.htm

http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp

Where does one start?

I guess the easy way is to say I disagree with all of your post. Mostly the unAmerican and debate part.

The left called "themselves" unAmerican and tried to pin the label maker as if it came from the right. They did this to try and put themselves on the political high road. (Hillery in particular). IMHO

Once again we have some one here that thinks because the majority of those involved in politics don't agree with them, the majority therefore is uninformed, stupid or both

Dam frustrating if you ask me

See, manyconservatives will just address the peripheral aspects of why the US is unAmerican or not, why the left wants to be perceived as unAmerican or not, etc.... Address some substanive questions like we have become what we fear. Why not define what we fear, then argue why it is what we fear, then argue whether we fear that or not. See, you kind of support the counterarguments when you just get frustrated that people want to argue the subject when taht is what America was founded upon; right to dissent.

This is essentially the flag burning issue all over again.

[Ron 10]

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As for people not going to jail for protesting Shrub? Guess again. Has happened more than once.

They were arrested and held for two hours....They did not go to Jail.

They will either go to trial, or the charges will be dropped.

And last I checked, Bush didn't order these guys to be arrested.

And from your own site:

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The ACLU filed a similar lawsuit last year, ACORN v. Secret Service, which charged that the Secret Service violated protesters’ free speech rights during events attended by President Bush and other senior federal officials. According to ACLU legal papers, local police, acting at the direction of the Secret Service, violated the rights of protesters in two ways: people expressing views critical of the government were moved further away from public officials while those with pro-government views were allowed to remain closer; or everyone expressing a view was herded into what is commonly known as a "protest zone," leaving those who merely observe, but express no view, to remain closer. The federal court in Philadelphia dismissed that case in March after the Secret Service acknowledged that it could not discriminate against protesters through the use of out-of-sight, out-of-earshot protest zones.

Well gee, protesters where moved? So what? They moved all of them, or maybe they only moved the ones causing a problem? Most pro-anybody folks are not going to start a problem, a few anti-somebody folks will.

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Ever wonder why the Israeli fighters are referred to as soldiers, while the Palestinian fighters are called militants or terrorists. Is there really a difference between what they do to one another, except that Israel does a lot more of it?

Yeah, Israeli soldiers don't strap exposives on and go try and kill people just ridding a bus. They are uniformed soldiers, not people wearing civi clothes and targeting civilians on a bus.

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Is there any plan to discontinue use of the depleted uranium?

No, because it is dense enough to work really well against armor.

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Again, you are dismissing accusations out of hand without offering any supporting evidence. The electronic voting machines are a joke, and an insult to any voter who expects his vote to be counted. If it sounds like I'm a little bitter, well its because the early voting tally got effed up, so my vote probably didn't get counted.

Oh so you have no proof, but are pissed anyway?

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We went prematurely

Saddam had 12 years, and while he might have not had any WMD's he NEVER complied with the resolutions...According to the resolutions he HAD TO TELL AND SHOW US WHAT HE DID WITH THE WMD's.

He never did comply.

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without good intelligence.

We had intel for several sources, from several countries, telling us all the same thing.

He had WMD's (we sold some to him, so we knew he had them). He never complied with the resolution...If he had, he would still be in power...I mean we did give him 12 years after he started his last war.

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But the press is not living up to its responsibilities.

Thats not the governments fault....But what do you expect when the left slams Fox, but rallies behind CBS when they bring forged documents and then forgives them?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rushmc 23]

I know I generalized terribly in my last post. For that I am sorry.

........but, debating your post gives validity to your assertions. (namely the unAmerican comment)

If that label was placed to another by a group then let the debate begin. I do not think that is what happened. Those wanting to debate other topics placed that label on themselves and blamed the other to gain political advantage........so I don't buy it.

I also do not agree with anything else you posts as being valid.

Personally, I do not understand where that kind of thinking comes from. You, ( and I am not presuming to know what you think) may not understand how I can not see your point

Want to talk it over? Great, but is will not happen with me. Not because your opinion doesn't count or should not be debated, but because I can not even come close to accepting your starting point.

Stubborn, ya unAmerican......not a chance.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[TheAnvil 0]

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Try that with a judge. The immunity is transferred to judges, so the Monarchical immunity isn't with the King/Queen but the real rulers, the judges. And yes, you will be lynched if you say anything about a judge. Hell, try slamming a cop, that'll work too. Many lawyers refuse to sue cops, some are ballsy enough tho.

So now the inability to tell a judge off in a court of law is proof positive the US is a repressive dictatorship? ROFLMFAO! Saying anything bad about a judge will get you lynched? Ted Kennedy and friends say bad things about two of the most powerful judges in the land - Scalia & Thomas - and have yet to be lynched! Cops not get sued? Give me a BREAK! How many cops do you know? My friend has been sued twice in the past YEAR in Memphis and he's not the only guy in the precinct!

Calling something asinine isn't a personal attack. Deal with it.

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I don't know tons about McCarthy and the correlations to Bush, but would you entertain arguments and comparisons to Fascism? Don't make me research and post if you're going to summarily pick over the points; you must promise to answer them all as will I answer all counterclaims.

If you like, go ahead. Since Fascism is towards the right end of the political spectrum I'm sure there are parallels, just as there are obvious parallels between socialism and communism and the Democratic party platform.

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Again - which war has yielded no civilian casualties?

Which wars were fought w/o cause? Korean, Viet Nam, Gulf, Iraq, and more smaller wars I'm sure.

I see you don't like my question so I'll answer: NO WAR HAS EVER PRODUCED NO CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

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Right, we're right, most ofthe rest of the world is wrong. Mmmmhhhm. Uh, and since you guys rely on the ends justifying the means....oops, you're wrong. I will give the cons credit for not flying in the WMD's in a C-130 at 3am. Oh well, there's still time.

What are you talking about?

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So, what does a reasonable entity do when they're wrong? Do they undo the error? Yes. Now that we realized we were wrong aboutthe WMD's, why not restore the country and bow out? Not change their ideology and political structure, but restore things the way they were. Noooo, ya see, that gives us away - we went in to change the countries government and political structure. The rest of the world knows that, but the US cons don't. Naw, they do, but the facade must continue to justify the Imperialism.

Bwwaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaabwaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaa

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Are you joking? You comapre the US with actions of countries like China and many Middle Eastern countries to suppport your, "the US is a great place" argument. Hey, here's an idea, why not compare us to Scandinavian countries? How about many countries in Europe. Hell, even compare us to the former USSR, they don't even kill their citizens anymore. That is a skewed argument to compare us to the worst of the worst, but I see how you could do that considering that there are like 8 countries in the world that still kids people for juvenile crimes - maybe you're right on track.

Humorous. Some fellow asks if we've become a repressive regime and you want a comparison with non-repressive regimes to prove that we're not ourselves repressive. That's good for a morning chuckle. What sort of comparison with the Scandinavians would you like? Tax rates perhaps? Let's go there. HAHAHAHA. How about that USSR? That would be a REALLY funny one.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[PhillyKev 0]

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I spend a couple hours a day with the news. Are you saying I should spend four?

I think he meant you should spend more time on the news that HE likes...you know, FOX, Drudge, Newsmax.

[jdhill 0]

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I've beat my head agaist a wall for years

Maybe you ought to stop doing that... it can't be good on the brain... I've heard it even causes blury vision...

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke