Botellines 0 #26 December 23, 2004 Alright, but knowing what you do now, would you still have gone to war under those terms? I mean, WMD have not been found yet, neither a suitable delivery way for those WMD, so the threat to use WMD is bogus, specially the time frame of 45 minutes (I believe that was Blair). By the way, the intel was gathered/fabricated by the U.S/U.K, Maybe the sources where from other countries as well, but it is U.S/U.K responsabilities to check first the sources. So, and i am conceding a lot, I put U.S/U.K intel in the same level than SH and the U.N if not more. Of course that is if the "evidence" was gathered, if it was fabricated, i would add to that list in the first position whoever made up those lies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #27 December 23, 2004 hah another one! you are one a roll Ron. keep it up. www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #28 December 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteSocialism is stupid. It ignores human nature and as for the depression, created a headache for the future. I agree...Most of the programs that were instituted are now the subject of major reform today because they are such a drain of funds...These programs were only meant to be temporary... ~R+R... Let me tell you I'm from oversocialised europe (netherlands) and everything above is correct. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #29 December 23, 2004 QuoteAlright, but knowing what you do now, would you still have gone to war under those terms? No, but if I knew then what I know now I would have bought Walmart, IBM and Disney stock when they just came out. Based on the intel at the time I didn't buy those stocks...Boy I wish I had. Based on the intel that they had then, they thought Iraq did have WMD's,he never did comply, and he was not very forth coming or helpful to the inspectors....And there may still be WMD's. 360 tons of explosives managed to dissapear without a trace, so a few tons of WMD's could easily be hidden or moved across the border. So not finding them now is not much proof that they were never there. QuoteWMD have not been found yet Like I said it does not mean he didn't have them or have programs studying how to get them. Quoteneither a suitable delivery way for those WMD He had several methods. And a WMD does not need a "special" delivery method....Remember the Sarin gas in the Tokyo Subway? Lots of folks died from a guy with a can. Quoteso the threat to use WMD is bogus, Nope, if he had them they were a threat. He had missles with a range greater than he was allowed, and like I said a can of gas killed a lot of folks without a special method of delivery. Imagine a crop duster flying over a city....Yikes. And crop dusters are not hard to get. Quotespecially the time frame of 45 minutes (I believe that was Blair). How long does it take to open a canister of gas? And if its Blair that said that...Then thats still not Bush. QuoteBy the way, the intel was gathered/fabricated by the U.S/U.K, Maybe the sources where from other countries as well, but it is U.S/U.K responsabilities to check first the sources. As for fabricating proof...Do you have proof of that? Or are you just guessing? Cause if you have proof I sure would like to see it. If not then why are you lying? As for the intel....Ever been involved with intel? I have on a small scale (I held a Secret clearance due to my job in the Army. Exp in 05). With the cutbacks in the CIA over the years and the push for less HUMIT and more on gizmos and gagets I can't place the blame on one guy...Especially when the intel came from several sources from several countries. And when that same intel was seen by several countries and the UN and they had the same conclusion that he had WMD's. The only difference is some wanted more time for the inspectors to do the job. At this point I would like to bring up that he had 12 years to comply and never did and he kicked out the inspectors at least once in that 12 years. The UN didn't do anything for 12 years about it but talk about doing something....What makes anyone think they would do anything different in the next 12 years? Being that the US is one of the most ripe targets and Saddam had stated several times he wanted to destroy America, and we had intel he had WMD's....Well that makes him a threat."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #30 December 23, 2004 Sorry Ron, but #3 is based upon another myth (that SH kicked out the weapon inspectors in '98) - he didn't ..http://www.fair.org/activism/usat-iraq.html (and other sources)... Quote But Iraq did not "expel" the UNSCOM weapons inspectors; in fact, they were withdrawn by Richard Butler, the head of the inspections team. The Washington Post, like numerous other media outlets, reported it accurately at the time (12/17/98): "Butler ordered his inspectors to evacuate Baghdad, in anticipation of a military attack, on Tuesday night." (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #31 December 23, 2004 QuoteThe U.N. and all countries and corporations, and individuals who supported SH by being co-conspirators in the Oil for Food scam. Which would then also be the US. The Oil-For-Food program was proposed and initially run by the Security Council, which as you know includes the US. I believe it was actually the US who either proposed or vocally supported handing the administration of the program over to SH. The US plays a big part in the UN oil-for-food debacle, even if the US company names involved were blacked out on the list. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #32 December 23, 2004 QuoteSorry Ron, but #3 is based upon another myth (that SH kicked out the weapon inspectors in '98) - he didn't ..http://www.fair.org/activism/usat-iraq.html (and other sources)... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But Iraq did not "expel" the UNSCOM weapons inspectors; in fact, they were withdrawn by Richard Butler, the head of the inspections team. The Washington Post, like numerous other media outlets, reported it accurately at the time (12/17/98): "Butler ordered his inspectors to evacuate Baghdad, in anticipation of a military attack, on Tuesday night." Wanna play dueling sources? Hell from your own source he was not complying, and that is enough to warrent an invasion according the the Resolution. Quote "U.N. weapons inspectors withdraw from Baghdad one day after reporting Iraq was still not cooperating." "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #33 December 23, 2004 i try to stay out of politics lately because i have a son in tha US ARMY in iraq right now, so it's a little too personal. but to answer your question. imo we should have never attacked iraq without UN concensus. that said we should have finished this job in 1991 in the first gulf war. nuff said.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #34 December 23, 2004 Who's to blame for the Iraq Mess? That's simple... In no particular orderof importance: T.E. Lawrence (of Arabia), for raising Arab nationalism during WWI to gain allies. Woodrow Wilson & David Lloyd George for promising 'said Arabs self-government and then perverting their promises. Almost all of the Middle-East's problems stem from British & American actions during 1915-1919. The remainder stem from the creation of the state of Israel from the country of Palestine post WWII. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #35 December 23, 2004 None of the above.............. Fundamentalist Muslims............ their imams and their mis-interpretation of the KoranMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #36 December 23, 2004 No... my point was about the myth of the inspectors being kicked out - which still appears to be banded around dispite evidnce to the contary.... (not SH non-complience - a different issue IMHO). Seasons Greetings Tony (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #37 December 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe U.N. and all countries and corporations, and individuals who supported SH by being co-conspirators in the Oil for Food scam. Which would then also be the US. The Oil-For-Food program was proposed and initially run by the Security Council, which as you know includes the US. I believe it was actually the US who either proposed or vocally supported handing the administration of the program over to SH. The US plays a big part in the UN oil-for-food debacle, even if the US company names involved were blacked out on the list. I said "ALL". My only hope is the whole truth about this scandal comes out. I doubt it though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #38 December 23, 2004 Who is to blame? The inability to coexist is the blame. It goes all the way back to the first human to human conflict. One grunted the wrong way at another. The offended slaps the first. The first then hits the second with a stick. The seconds sees need for a weapons defense system and starts collecting rocks. The first notices the build up and starts collecting himself.... the start of the arms race. Hell, look trhrough the written history of our kind and it is more than 90%(conservative) war and very little if no peace. The blame of all wars lies soley on the entire human race for not being able to be civilize. The definition of civilize is-to bring out of savagery."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #39 December 23, 2004 QuoteU.S. Constitution Article 1 Section 8 Clause 1: " The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;" The Congress is well within their authority. But you left out what essentially defined the role of the Federal Government... Cluases 2-18... perhaps my "No Authority" statment was too braod, but the "No Obligation" part was dead on. QuoteClause 2: To borrow Money on the credit of the United States; Clause 3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; Clause 4: To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States; Clause 5: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; Clause 6: To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States; Clause 7: To establish Post Offices and post Roads; Clause 8: To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries; Clause 9: To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court; Clause 10: To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations; Clause 11: To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water; Clause 12: To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years; Clause 13: To provide and maintain a Navy; Clause 14: To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces; Clause 15: To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; Clause 16: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; Clause 17: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, byCession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And Clause 18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof. All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #40 December 23, 2004 QuoteI said "ALL". My only hope is the whole truth about this scandal comes out. I doubt it though. Fair enough and I doubt it too, doubt it very much Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #41 December 23, 2004 Quote Clinton! Please don't be so dumb. Clearly, it was Monica's fault. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #42 December 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe world for not taking him out sooner?? Last I checked, SH is not in power and not sending in these insurgents. Total miscaculation by the war mongers Bush & Co. I remember hearing the Middle East experts on the news before the invasion start in March 2003 - saying that even with the head cut off, Iraq would never settle for American power in their country. Too bad Bush never listened to any of the experts - he fired anyone that disagreed with him. I'd like to hear what all of those people have to say right now. If he had been dealt with earlier, his network would have been less deeply entrenched. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #43 December 23, 2004 Just a thought..... but you may want to blame the people who put him (and supported him!!) in power in the first place........ you may not need too many guesses to work out who the THEY were. Yo Ho Ho..... Tony (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #44 December 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe world for not taking him out sooner?? Last I checked, SH is not in power and not sending in these insurgents. Total miscaculation by the war mongers Bush & Co. I remember hearing the Middle East experts on the news before the invasion start in March 2003 - saying that even with the head cut off, Iraq would never settle for American power in their country. Too bad Bush never listened to any of the experts - he fired anyone that disagreed with him. I'd like to hear what all of those people have to say right now. If he had been dealt with earlier, his network would have been less deeply entrenched. Then the blame should also fall on the Regan and Bush Sr admins_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #45 December 23, 2004 QuoteIf he had been dealt with earlier, his network would have been less deeply entrenched. Well Bush1 should have gone in and removed SH. However the International comunity didn't want that so we didn't. Clinton had 8 years to deal with it and he didn't. The UN had 12 years and did nothing. If Bush1 had done the job, or if Clinton had delt with him, or (and this is my big beef) the UN had not been all bark and no bite for 12 years this would not have been an issue. But it is not as much fun to bash Clinton or the UN."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #46 December 23, 2004 QuoteThen the blame should also fall on the Regan and Bush Sr admins Don't forget Clinton. He had 8 years to deal with it... I will grant that the US helped create this problem. But the UN let it fester unchecked."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #47 December 23, 2004 QuoteBut it is not as much fun to bash Clinton or the UN. Tell that to Rush, FoxNews or O'Reilly. Not only was it fun, they are successful because of it._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #48 December 23, 2004 QuoteTell that to Rush, FoxNews or O'Reilly. Not only was it fun, they are successful because of it. Well CNN, Stearns, Joan Blades and Wes Boyd all have to be balanced by someone. Besides Bush Bashing is yours and others favorite playtime activity."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #49 December 23, 2004 QuoteTell that to Rush, FoxNews or O'Reilly. Not only was it fun, they are successful because of it. Well CNN, Stearns, Joan Blades and Wes Boyd all have to be balanced by someone. Besides Bush Bashing is yours and others favorite playtime activity. It might be in my top ten things, but it's not #1....I've have too many other fun hobbies. Besides, the administration makes it just too damn easy._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #50 December 23, 2004 QuoteBesides, the administration makes it just too damn easy. Now you understand how much we enjoyed Clinton"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
