Ron 10 #76 December 24, 2004 This kills me. you think he would have been better, but you admit you don't knw anything about him and only know him from a few speaches? Oh my god!!! QuoteI admit I don't know a whole lot about him, my opinion is based mostly on watching a couple of speaches he's made."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #77 December 24, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- UN voted for serious consequences -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What ignore him for another 12 years? Get real. Ok, I get it, you think war was necessary. But the UN did not. Whether you agree with that or not isn't the point. The point is you keep saying that the UN and US Congress voted to use force. They did not. You keep spreading false information. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #78 December 24, 2004 The UN voted for serious consequences Why don't you tell me what serious consequences are."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #79 December 24, 2004 QuoteWell the economy was headed south in the last year of Clinton...So I guess that was Bush's fault? Yes, there was no war, he instead ignored the problem and made someone else clean up a mess he should have done something about No your right, you guys have been much better off with Bush. Some excitement on TV to take your mind off the abysmal economy and the enormous debt. I am not laying blame with anybody, just comparing periods...... 9/11 seems to be slowly attaining its goal. Unfortunately, more so by your own doing than the terrorists doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #80 December 24, 2004 QuoteWhat ignore him for another 12 years? Get real. Outside of the fact that some were getting very rich.......some of those resolutions did seem to have their desired effect. No missles that could reach you. No WMD, No military to speak of, really no threat. Amazing what one guy's lies and one guy's bloodthirst can result in..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #81 December 24, 2004 QuoteNo missles that could reach you. No WMD, No military to speak of, really no threat. No threat is subjective. A nice WMD in a van in the middle of Miami that explodes is an issue. You amy not agree. But Saddam had WMD's he stated that he wanted America to fall. There are ties with him and terror organizations. The evidence points to him being a threat. But you don't seem to be big on evicence. Case in point: QuoteAmazing what one guy's lies and one guy's bloodthirst can result in..... As I have said before...If you have proof please bring it up. But all you do is slander and lie."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #82 December 24, 2004 QuoteAs I have said before...If you have proof please bring it up. But all you do is slander and lie. That would be libel, which would also make the lie part redundant. If it is the truth, it can't be libel. Ron, it really isn't that difficult remembering the difference between libel and slander. QuoteBut you don't seem to be big on evicence. That is quite funny considering the actions of the administration you so blindly follow and defend. QuoteA nice WMD in a van in the middle of Miami that explodes is an issue. So is planes flying into big buildings.....looks like your in the wrong country though...all those dudes came from Saudi Arabia. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #83 December 24, 2004 QuoteThat would be libel, which would also make the lie part redundant. If it is the truth, it can't be libel. Ron, it really isn't that difficult remembering the difference between libel and slander. No but you do both very well...Like I said bring proof, or quit lying. QuoteThat is quite funny considering the actions of the administration you so blindly follow and defend. You can say what you want...It does not change the fact you have no proof, but make claims anyway. Thats called lying. QuoteSo is planes flying into big buildings.....looks like your in the wrong country though...all those dudes came from Saudi Arabia Try to saty on topic...I didn't bring 9/11 into this. The van in Miami is one of the dozens of possible threats from WMD's that Saddam had. Quit trying to confuse the issue."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #84 December 24, 2004 QuoteThe UN voted for serious consequences Why don't you tell me what serious consequences are. That line of argument is silly. I didn't vote for serious consequences. Neither did you. So whatever we think it meant doesn't matter. What matters is what the UN meant by it, since you're using that as proof of justification. And it's pretty clear from their actions that they didn't mean invasion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #85 December 24, 2004 QuoteThat line of argument is silly. I didn't vote for serious consequences. Neither did you. So whatever we think it meant doesn't matter. well what pray tell did THEY mean by it? Coming back after the fact and saying "Thats not what we ment is so....well Kerry" QuoteAnd it's pretty clear from their actions that they didn't mean invasion No its clear from their AFTER actions....But you failed to say (And so did they) what they meant. And like I said I don't think you or they could say it was "Or we will ask again, and again, and again""No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #86 December 24, 2004 QuoteYou can say what you want...It does not change the fact you have no proof, but make claims anyway. Thats called lying. Uhmm, no it is not. Lying is when you claim something that isn't true. Stating something without proof does not make it a lie, some may even call it an opinion. Since you seem to have a really hard time grasping simple concepts like lieing and the difference between libel and slander, it sure makes me wonder about your statements on far more difficult subjects. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #87 December 24, 2004 QuoteAnd like I said I don't think you or they could say it was "Or we will ask again, and again, and again" Why not, it was working. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #88 December 24, 2004 QuoteCongress voted to authorize the president to use force if diplomacy failed.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #89 December 24, 2004 Quote A nice WMD in a van in the middle of Miami that explodes is an issue. I know your not going to bring up Miami and terrrorism. Too late. Have you heard of Orlando Bosch? He fires a bazooka at a Polish freighter in the Port of Miami. To say nothing of his involvement in the explosian of a Cuban airliner, killing all 73 on board. So, what does Bush the elder do? At the urging of his son Pumpkinhead (Jeb Bush for those not privy to local Florida politics), G.H.W. Bush pardoned Bosch. Later, Pumpkinhead appointed his attorney to the Florida Supreme Court. Too bad Bosch isn't the only terrorist who has found sanctuary in Florida. QuoteThe evidence points to him being a threat. Kinly show us that evidence, Ron? You keep mentioning it, but never present it. QuoteBut you don't seem to be big on evi[d]ence. The same could be, and is being, said of you. QuoteBut all you do is slander and lie. A bit like the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #90 December 24, 2004 QuoteCongress voted to authorize the president to use force if diplomacy failed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Diplomacy didn't work for 12 years...I guess we should have waited another 12 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #91 December 24, 2004 QuoteAt the urging of his son Pumpkinhead Man you really can't get over your little nicknames can you? QuoteKin[d]ly show us that evidence, Ron? You keep mentioning it, but never present it. Before you go fixing my spelling...check your own. But as for evidence...Lets see, he had WMD's (can't deny that) and he stated he hated America and wanted us to suffer (Can't deny that either)... So lets see, we have a guy that hates us, had WMD's and even tried to kill a President.. Yeah, I'd say he was a threat. QuoteA bit like the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think? No, your little name calling and lying about all kinds of things is not like me. I ask for proof of your claims that Bush lied, and you can't provide any...cool thing about America is you have to PROVE a person is quilty...Somehting you have not been able to do. The fault lies with you. But feel free to keep lying."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #92 December 24, 2004 QuoteSince you seem to have a really hard time grasping simple concepts like lieing and the difference between libel and slander, it sure makes me wonder about your statements on far more difficult subjects. You seem to have a hard time with the concept of innocent till proven guilty and PROOF. Make me wonder a lot about you. I can see this is going nowhere since you can't get over the fact he is innocent. And you seem to enjoy the lying. Have a nice Christmas"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #93 December 24, 2004 QuoteBut as for evidence...Lets see, he had WMD's (can't deny that) and he stated he hated America and wanted us to suffer (Can't deny that either)... Where are the WMD. They have not been found. Are you denying that? QuoteI ask for proof of your claims that Bush lied His lips moved. QuoteThe fault lies with you. No, the fault lies with Shrub, Rummy, Wolfowitz, etc. for piss poor planning.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #94 December 24, 2004 QuoteWhere are the WMD. They have not been found. Are you denying that? Nope my statement was there were WMD...And you can't deny that. He used the once so he HAD to have them. As for where are they? Well 360 TONS of explosives vanished without a trace...So a few tons should be easy to hide/smuggle accross the border. But if I had proof of where they were, I 'd say something. QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I ask for proof of your claims that Bush lied -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- His lips moved. See its your clear hatred and lack of proof and coments like that that make talking to you very close to a waste of time. QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The fault lies with you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, the fault lies with Shrub, Rummy, Wolfowitz, etc. for piss poor planning. And there you go again...I tell you what, I'm done with you unless you provide some proof, cause otherwise you are just pissing into the wind."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #95 December 24, 2004 QuoteThis kills me. you think he would have been better, but you admit you don't knw anything about him and only know him from a few speaches? Oh my god!!! Read it again. I didn't say I don't know anything about him, I said I don't know much about him, relatively speaking. None the less, it didn't take much to convince me that he's wiser than Bush. This isn't surprising considering a lot of people voted for Bush because he doesn't seem *too* smart. That kills me. Call me crazy, but I want our leader to be exceptionally intelligent. Blairs speaches on foreign policy were well thought out, articulate, and charismatic. I don't know anything about his domestic policies, or how'd they translate if he were a US politician, but I find it unlikely that he'd be any worse than Bush. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #96 December 24, 2004 QuoteSee its your clear hatred and lack of proof and coments like that that make talking to you very close to a waste of time. C'mon. Shrub flip-flops more than even John Kerry did. He can't be telling the truth every time. For example, what is our mission in Iraq? You know, the one the White House has been giving consistently since Sep. 11 2002? Contradiction of statements is proof of lying, generally speaking.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #97 December 24, 2004 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1405428#1405428 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I ask for proof of your claims that Bush lied -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- His lips moved. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- See its your clear hatred and lack of proof and coments like that that make talking to you very close to a waste of time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The fault lies with you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, the fault lies with Shrub, Rummy, Wolfowitz, etc. for piss poor planning. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And there you go again...I tell you what, I'm done with you unless you provide some proof, cause otherwise you are just pissing into the wind. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #98 December 24, 2004 Quote Nope my statement was there were WMD...And you can't deny that. He used the once so he HAD to have them. No one disputes that SH had and used WMD previously. However, they have a limited shelf life, and his capacity to manufacture new ones was disabled. Sanctions and inspections were working. That's why no WMDs have been found since the invasion. Quote As for where are they? Well 360 TONS of explosives vanished without a trace...So a few tons should be easy to hide/smuggle accross the border. Funny you should mention that. For starters, those are conventional weapons, not WMDs. Second, poor planning and foolish decisions on the part of our administration left those explosives completely unguarded. That's why they went missing. As far as I'm concerned, this constitutes gross negligence. Those explosives are almost certainly being used against our troops now. Mission accomplished?! -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #99 December 24, 2004 QuoteNo one disputes that SH had and used WMD previously So therefore he had them. QuoteHowever, they have a limited shelf life, and his capacity to manufacture new ones was disabled. We had no proof of that and UNSCOM knew he had made new WMD's in 1995 and loaded them into warheads. Again all Saddma had to do was allow inspectors, and work with them, but he did not. QuoteSanctions and inspections were working We had no proof they were working, but we did have proof they they were not working. And like I said before al Saddam had to do was allow inspectors full access and then there would have been no issue. QuoteThat's why no WMDs have been found since the invasion. so even though 360 TONS can just dissapear without trace you don't think a few tons could? Please explain the logic in that thought process. QuoteFunny you should mention that. For starters, those are conventional weapons, not WMDs So? Quote Second, poor planning and foolish decisions on the part of our administration left those explosives completely unguarded. I don't agree, but whatever. Please stick to the topic...How can 360 TONS vanish without a trace, but we should be able to find a few tons of WMD?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #100 December 24, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteNo one disputes that SH had and used WMD previously So therefore he had them. Yep. Past tense. Quote Again all Saddma had to do was allow inspectors, and work with them, but he did not. Yes, actually he did. He was a pain in the but about it, but once we started rattling our saber, he started cooperating. QuoteSanctions and inspections were working Quote We had no proof they were working, but we did have proof they they were not working. How's that? Proof that they were working is the fact that nothing was found. Proof that they weren't working would have been the discovery of WMDs. Nothing was found. What proof are you referring to? Quoteso even though 360 TONS can just dissapear without trace you don't think a few tons could? We're finding those missing conventional explosives all the time. Unfortunately, they're often being delivered to our troops via IEDs and suicide bombers. Quote QuoteFunny you should mention that. For starters, those are conventional weapons, not WMDs So? A year after the mission was accomplished , it still appears that the number one reason we cited for invasion was bogus. QuoteQuote Second, poor planning and foolish decisions on the part of our administration left those explosives completely unguarded. I don't agree, but whatever. Please stick to the topic...How can 360 TONS vanish without a trace, but we should be able to find a few tons of WMD? If you don't agree, tell me why. Please stick to the topic? When did you become the arbiter of what's relevant to the discussion? My points are topical. As to your final question: You're asking me to support a position that I didn't actually take. I didn't say we'd easily be able to find a modest stockpile of WMDs. I said we were irresponsible in leaving the conventional weapons unguarded. Now they're undoubtedly being used against us. As for proving that no WMDs exist, I get the impression that you'll be arguing that we just haven't found them yet until every building, house, hut, barn and hill in the whole country has been torn apart. You can cling to that rational for another decade and still claim that we just haven't found them yet. Meanwhile, other countries are busily doing whatever they please because our resources are already tied up. Great! I feel safer already. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
