To all Christians out there.

[jcd11235 0]

First, the Salem witch trials pre date the Constitution by about 100 years.

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Secularism is now abound all over the "old world" and the void of morality or moral guidance is now showing in the forms of scandals, creaking social systems and my own perception of dissatisfaction amongst a common man trying to make his way through a system that thwarts, rather than supports creative thinking.

I find it very difficult to believe that "the void of morality or moral guidance" has anything to do with all the scandals in todays world. The root cause of that is, by and large, Capitalism, with notable exceptions, such as the pedophilic scandals of the Catholic Church.

I agree that our society discourages free thinking, but it has been my experience that many churches also do that, so, it is likely that the seperation of church and state actually keeps the problem from being worse than it is.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Gawain 0]

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I find it very difficult to believe that "the void of morality or moral guidance" has anything to do with all the scandals in todays world.

That is funny sh*t!! Lack of moral direction not playing a role in the lack of moral behavior. You validated my point.

If there was a stronger sense of "right and wrong" taught in society, perhaps those getting embroiled in these scandals would have thought twice before getting involved.

You think Capitalism is the root of evil? That's even funnier. The vast majority of successful business in Capitalism is due to adhering to strict standards of business conduct.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 2,027]

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That is an incorrect statement. Our Founding Fathers were not Christian.

George Washington never took communion.

“[T]he Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion...”
--Treaty of Tripoli; Ratified by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams on 10 June, 1797.

Christianity in itself is not a "religion", rather is refers to a whole group of doctrines which share some commonality in the belief of Jesus. Many of these Christian faiths do not take communion. In fact, I think Catholics and Episcapalians are the only two that do (I could be wrong).

I think you are - our local Lutheran church has communion.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jcd11235 0]

Capitalism works on the premise that one can obtain labor at a lower cost than its actual value, ie the exploitation of workers. Yes, I feel that that is more responsible for moral decay than not attending Sunday school. It shows a lack of respect to fellow man, which is the very moral decay we are speaking of.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Gawain 0]

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Capitalism works on the premise that one can obtain labor at a lower cost than its actual value, ie the exploitation of workers. Yes, I feel that that is more responsible for moral decay than not attending Sunday school. It shows a lack of respect to fellow man, which is the very moral decay we are speaking of.

That is incorrect.

This is the best explanation I've seen about capitalism.

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The essential nature of capitalism is social harmony through the pursuit of self-interest. Under capitalism, the individual's pursuit of his own economic self-interest simultaneously benefits the economic self-interests of all others. In allowing each individual to act unhampered by government regulations, capitalism causes wealth to be created in the most efficient manner possible which ultimately raises the standard of living, increases the economic opportunities, and makes available an ever growing supply of products for everyone. The free-market operates in such a way so that as one man creates more wealth for himself, he simultaneously creates more wealth and opportunities for everyone else, which means that as the rich become richer, the poor become richer. It must be understood that capitalism serves the economic self-interests of all, including the non-capitalists.

Contrary to widely held beliefs, capitalism is not a system which exploits a large portion of society for the sake of a small minority of wealthy capitalists. Ironically, it is actually socialism that causes the systematic exploitation of labor. Since the socialist state holds a universal monopoly on labor and production, no economic incentive exists for the socialist state to provide anything more than minimum physical subsistence for the workers except to perhaps prevent riots or revolutions. Exploitation is inherent to the nature of socialism because individuals cannot live for their own sake, rather, they exist merely as means to whatever ends the socialist rulers -- the self-proclaimed spokesman of "society," may have in mind.

See the rest of the explanation/faq here: http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Politics/Articles/Capitalism/capit-2.htm

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jcd11235 0]

Interesting, but academically incorrect.

Capitalism works by exploiting labor.

Incidentally, the theory behind Marxism is fromeach, according to their ability, to each, according to their need.

It is basic economic theory. Whether one supports capitalism, or socialism, or a combination thereof, does not change what those concepts are.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kallend 2,027]

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Do you believe everything you read "on-line"? Surely, no despot, anti-Christian zealot or anyone else would post false statements "on-line"!?

Not sure to what you refer. The Treaty of Tripoli is historical fact. Wikipedia is a reputable site with no axe to grind, for example.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Mirage63 0]

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Interesting, but academically incorrect.

Capitalism works by exploiting labor.

God I know better than to get into this, but could you please back you statement up with something other than repeating it?

[jcd11235 0]

W would be happy to explain, but someone else has already done a better job:

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For capitalism to exist there must be two types of people, or social classes: capitalists and workers. Capitalists, the holders of capital, must harness workers to create surplus value in production. Capitalists as a class own and control the means of production, whereas workers have only their labor-power, which they must sell to the capitalists for a wage if they are to subsist.

The objective of the capitalists is to expand their capital by combining labor and means of production and selling the resultant commodities, which are their property, for a profit. The profit actually arises in the course of production, not in the sale of the product, as the worker's labor adds more value than what the worker is paid in wages; the capitalist expropriates this surplus value. Capitalist production is for exchange, not directly for use; exchange value is measured in terms of money. Under capitalism, labor-power is itself a commodity (an item for sale on the market), bought and sold on the market like any other article of exchange. To maximize profits, the employer is constantly trying to increase the amount of surplus value taken from the worker.

Because capitalists and workers have antagonistic interests, class struggle is an inherent feature of capitalist production itself, and of capitalist society.

http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/courses/geog100/About_Capitalism.htm

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kelpdiver 2]

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I find it very difficult to believe that "the void of morality or moral guidance" has anything to do with all the scandals in todays world.

That is funny sh*t!! Lack of moral direction not playing a role in the lack of moral behavior. You validated my point.

If there was a stronger sense of "right and wrong" taught in society, perhaps those getting embroiled in these scandals would have thought twice before getting involved.

Implied in your words is that behavior was better in the "good old days."

You know, back when they lynched blacks and the cops beat up striking workers. When women weren't allowed to vote. And so forth.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a
Jewish prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to
hear a Muslim prayer. If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would
expect to hear someone pray to Buddha.

None of those countries has a constitution that recognizes the importance of separation of church and state.

Merry Christmas none the less.
-Josh

It's frightening that in a discussion of freedom, we're comparing ourselves to Iraq, China, and Israel. There is little about those 3 countries that we want to be similar to.

[flyontheground 0]

As an Agnostic, I would like to wish the Christian Community a Very Merry Christmas! Also, a Happy Hanakah to the Jewish Community as well as any other purported faith that has a Peaceful attitude to the world community!

The Founding Fathers were principally Deists; they believed that God created the world as it is and then moved on to create other worlds, leaving mankind to its' own devices. That is an over generalization, but should suffice for all intended purposes.

As far as the country being founded by Christians, there is merit to that, however, there many different sects of Christians who came here to escape religious persecution from the Catholic and Church of England authorities as well as the politically motivated Parliament and the Crown who all subscribed to different extractions from the Bible. Thus, New England is primarily Protestant and Catholic, Pennsylvania Dutch and Quakers, and to shorten the list, all of the other colonies were comprised of other sects to numerous to mention here.

Because of the factionalism, not unlike the discussions that go on here, the framers, primarily Franklin, found it necessary to find a remedy for the different Christian sects that were having nothing to do with each other so he had Jefferson and Madison discuss the separation of Church and state issue with an eye on allowing an individuals faith and beliefs to be practiced as they wish, as long as the practice and belief did not intrude on the rights of others to practice their faiths and beliefs. All the separation clause was intended to do was to allow free worship without intervention by other sects and the central government. Therefore..."CONGRESS SHALL PASS NO LAW..."

To the issue of prayer at public events. What ever happened to the thirty-seconds of silence that would allow every denomination to silently pray without someone of a particular sect pray on their behalf? If one denomination is allowed to say a mass prayer, what about all the other denominations being able to say their thirty second prayer? With hundreds of denominations of Christianity and all the other forms of religion in this country, I'm afraid the game or event would ever come to pass, given the prayer and time it takes to allow each sect or religion to approach the podium. I hope everyone gets the gist here.

Well now that I have had my say, I will turn the podium over to other opinions!

Happy Holidays EVERYONE!!!

Thank God I'm an Atheist! Kevin

[kallend 2,027]

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If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a
Jewish prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to
hear a Muslim prayer. If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would
expect to hear someone pray to Buddha.

None of those countries has a constitution that recognizes the importance of separation of church and state.

Merry Christmas none the less.
-Josh

It's frightening that in a discussion of freedom, we're comparing ourselves to Iraq, China, and Israel. There is little about those 3 countries that we want to be similar to.

Funny, in the "death penalty" threads the supporters don't seem to find such comparisons bad AT ALL.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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Some of them did, some of them did not. Collectively, they were in agreement that the government be secular.

That does not mean that the US was not founded on Christain beliefs.

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They in most cases did not push it on the new Country the formed for fear of creating a situation just like England and France had in the 1600-1700's.

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Ding, ding! As you said, we have a winner.

And they didn't, but they did base the country on faith.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,027]

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Some of them did, some of them did not. Collectively, they were in agreement that the government be secular.

That does not mean that the US was not founded on Christain beliefs.

Where is that written? Find me a reference to Jesus in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. A 1797 treaty signed into law by President Adams and ratified by the Senate explicitly states that the US are not Christian.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[3ringheathen 0]

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Some of them did, some of them did not. Collectively, they were in agreement that the government be secular.

That does not mean that the US was not founded on Christain beliefs.

I find your argument puzzling.
We've established that some of the founding fathers were Christian, and some were not.

We've established that the Treaty of Tripoli explicitly states that the US is not founded upon Christian beliefs. This was ratified by Adams and congress.

So how do you arrive at your conclusion?
What exactly are you trying to say?
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

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[kelpdiver 2]

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It's frightening that in a discussion of freedom, we're comparing ourselves to Iraq, China, and Israel. There is little about those 3 countries that we want to be similar to.

[kallend 2,027]

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It's frightening that in a discussion of freedom, we're comparing ourselves to Iraq, China, and Israel. There is little about those 3 countries that we want to be similar to.

Funny, in the "death penalty" threads the supporters don't seem to find such comparisons bad AT ALL.

[Ron 10]

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Where is that written? Find me a reference to Jesus in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.

The President at his Inauguration swears with his hand on the Bible, and kisses it at the end.

Well lets see....Washington read Genesis 49:13 when he took the oath of office.

April 30, 1789 -- George Washington
Pronounced the words, "So help me God" after taking the oath; other presidents have followed this example.
Set the precedent of kissing the Bible after the oath.

Franklin Pierce did not swear, he affirmed and did not kiss the Bible.

In fact GWB #1 used the same Bible Washington used. Bush #2 was going to use it, but the weather prevented it.

Why would the procedure for taking the highest office in the US have a Bible as part of it?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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We've established that the Treaty of Tripoli explicitly states that the US is not founded upon Christian beliefs. This was ratified by Adams and congress.

Just becasue one President says it is not (After the fact I might add) does not mean anything.

Notice that even Adams swore to the office on a Bible, and kissed it afterwards.

From Washingtons Address.

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Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own, nor those of my fellow-citizens at large less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency; and in the important revolution just accomplished in the system of their united government the tranquil deliberations and voluntary consent of so many distinct communities from which the event has resulted can not be compared with the means by which most governments have been established without some return of pious gratitude, along with an humble anticipation of the future blessings which the past seem to presage. These reflections, arising out of the present crisis, have forced themselves too strongly on my mind to be suppressed. You will join with me, I trust, in thinking that there are none under the influence of which the proceedings of a new and free government can more auspiciously commence.

And from your man Adams:

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Relying, however, on the purity of their intentions, the justice of their cause, and the integrity and intelligence of the people, under an overruling Providence which had so signally protected this country from the first,

I feel it to be my duty to add, if a, veneration for the religion of a people who profess and call themselves Christians, and a fixed resolution to consider a decent respect for Christianity among the best recommendations for the public service, can enable me in any degree to comply with your wishes, it shall be my strenuous endeavor that this sagacious injunction of the two Houses shall not be without effect.

And may that Being who is supreme over all, the Patron of Order, the Fountain of Justice, and the Protector in all ages of the world of virtuous liberty, continue His blessing upon this nation and its Government and give it all possible success and duration consistent with the ends of His providence.

He then took his hand off the Bible and kissed it.

Edit to add...From everyones Favorite Prez...JFK

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Vice President Johnson, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Chief Justice, President Eisenhower, Vice President Nixon, President Truman, reverend clergy, fellow citizens, we observe today not a victory of party, but a celebration of freedom—symbolizing an end, as well as a beginning—signifying renewal, as well as change. For I have sworn before you and Almighty God the same solemn oath our forebears prescribed nearly a century and three quarters ago.

The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life. And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe—the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God.

Let both sides unite to heed in all corners of the earth the command of Isaiah—to "undo the heavy burdens ... and to let the oppressed go free."

Finally, whether you are citizens of America or citizens of the world, ask of us the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,027]

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Where is that written? Find me a reference to Jesus in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.

The President at his Inauguration swears with his hand on the Bible, and kisses it at the end.

Well lets see....Washington read Genesis 49:13 when he took the oath of office.

April 30, 1789 -- George Washington
Pronounced the words, "So help me God" after taking the oath; other presidents have followed this example.
Set the precedent of kissing the Bible after the oath.

Franklin Pierce did not swear, he affirmed and did not kiss the Bible.

In fact GWB #1 used the same Bible Washington used. Bush #2 was going to use it, but the weather prevented it.

Why would the procedure for taking the highest office in the US have a Bible as part of it?

Where does Genesis mention Jesus? Which President said "So help me JESUS"? The issue you raised was Christianity, not Deism.

You are avoiding the question beacuse you can't answer it.

Muslims and Jews are also "People of the Book", it's not a Christian monopoly.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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Where does Genesis mention Jesus? Which President said "So help me JESUS"? The issue you raised was Christianity, not Deism.

Notice Adams mentions CHRISTIANITY by name.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,027]

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Where does Genesis mention Jesus? Which President said "So help me JESUS"? The issue you raised was Christianity, not Deism.

Notice Adams mentions CHRISTIANITY by name.

Is that the same Adams that signed the Treaty of Tripoli?

Bush mentions Jesus by name too. How does that affect the foundation of the nation?

WHERE in the Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution is ANY mention made of Jesus or Christianity?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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Is that the same Adams that signed the Treaty of Tripoli?

Yes, the same.

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Bush mentions Jesus by name too. How does that affect the foundation of the nation?

Bush was not there at the founding of the Nation, so it does not. Adams was and did.

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WHERE in the Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution is ANY mention made of Jesus or Christianity?

It does not, but you never answered why does the swearing in of the President happen on a BIBLE?

And the question was Founded on Religious Beliefs.

And the answer is ....Yes.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,027]

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And the question was Founded on Religious Beliefs.

And the answer is ....Yes.

That's not what you wrote here:
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1406206#1406206


And the answer is NO. There is nothing specifically Christian about he founding of the nation.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.