Muenkel 0 #1 December 24, 2004 Paul Harvey says: "I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December. I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution. Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game. "But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles. According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect-somebody chanting Hare Krishna? If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer. If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit. When in Rome.. "But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them? Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer. Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations. Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you, well..........just sue me. The silent majority has been silent too long. It's time we let that or two who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what they want. It is time the majority rules! It's time we tell them, you don't have to pray.. you don't have to say the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your right. But by golly, you are no longer going to take our rights away. We are fighting back. And we WILL WIN! God bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him... God bless America, despite all her faults, she is still the greatest nation of all..... God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God... May 2005 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions. Keep looking up...... In God WE Trust. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #2 December 24, 2004 Quotethis is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles. That is an incorrect statement. Our Founding Fathers were not Christian. George Washington never took communion. “[T]he Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion...” --Treaty of Tripoli; Ratified by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams on 10 June, 1797. “In every country and in every age the priest [any and every clergyman] has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.” --Thomas Jefferson “Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.” --James Madison There is a large amount of evidence of this fact online. America was founded on the principle of "seperation between Religion and the government."Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #3 December 24, 2004 This was addressed to Christians. But you're free to post your beliefs. Merry Christmas.Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #4 December 24, 2004 Are Christians entitled to their own facts, seperate from those that everyone else acknowledges as reality? Facts are facts, right?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #5 December 24, 2004 Quote If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer. If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha. None of those countries has a constitution that recognizes the importance of separation of church and state. Merry Christmas none the less. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #6 December 24, 2004 Quote None of those countries has a constitution that recognizes the importance of separation of church and state. Merry Christmas none the less. -Josh We've had this round-de-round before...but the above is not a "separation of church and state" issue.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mirage63 0 #7 December 24, 2004 Wish everyone would read these thoughts Quote (CBS) Weekly commentary by CBS News Chief Washington Correspondent Bob Schieffer. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If I wished you a merry Christmas, some would say, `Well, how improper. He's throwing his religion in my face.' But I hope I'm not, because to me the Christmas story is a message of love and forgiveness. To me, that means tolerance and respect for others. These are wonderful thoughts but no more admirable than Judaism's emphasis on values or Islam's command to help the poor, which to me are just different ways of saying the same thing. I have come to believe that all the great religions are basically true, all part of the same peace, a conclusion I neither ask nor expect anyone to share. If it matters to you, I am a believer but, like Kirkegaard, I am suspicious of all organized religion because too often it professes to know the mind of God and who could know that? To me, the greatest misunderstanding of religion is held by those who try to impose their beliefs on others and teach their children they are somehow superior to those who do not believe as they believe, which would seem to miss the point of all religion. Rather than arguing over the details, wouldn't we all be better off to focus on the values that all great religions share? We'll find out later who got the details right. The one sure thing I know about all this is that the Christmas story helps me. It reminds me that I am happier when I try to be forgiving rather than revengeful, when I try to be helpful instead of judgmental. So I do wish you a merry Christmas, if you know what I mean. By Bob Schieffer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 42 #8 December 24, 2004 Thank you for posting this, I am not a believer but I have always felt that if there was a God, would he not appear to different communities in a way that is most easy for their culture to accept? Since most religions really try to promote the same good kinds of behavior embodied in the golden rule, is it that much of a stretch to suggest that there is but one God represented differently by different cultures? Being a non-believer does not stop me from wanting to wish all of you a Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukah or Best of the Holidays. (you get to pick the sentiment that hits home for you!) Edited to add: I sing in a Barbershop quartet. On Boxing day I'll being singing 3 Christmas carols for a church service. I (an atheist) sing lead, the bass is Jewish, baritone and tenor both Christians."Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #9 December 24, 2004 QuoteThat is an incorrect statement. Our Founding Fathers were not Christian. BUZZZT! Wrong answer please try again. QuoteGeorge Washington never took communion So, my Sister is Christian and never took communion. Seperation of Church and State is one of the most mis-interpreted parts in the Constitution. From the Declaration: QuoteWhen in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator... ...We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name and by the authority of the good people of these colonies solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British crown and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved; and that, as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor. From the Amendments (Which were written two years after the Constitution) QuoteBill of Rights Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. All that says is that we will not have a Government sponsored Religion like the Church of England, or allow the Church to run the Government which was quite the problem back then in both England and France. It also says that we will not prohibit any other religions. Its pretty simple. Its in Black and well Parchment. I fail to see how that is hard to understand. Edit to add: Im not a Christian, but I can read. And I don't understand how people think its fine to attack Christianity, but will defend every other religion."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #10 December 24, 2004 the mention of "God" is not proof of Christianity... mention of "Christ" would be....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #11 December 24, 2004 QuoteAre Christians entitled to their own facts, seperate from those that everyone else acknowledges as reality? Facts are facts, right? That's why the call it Faith. I'm an atheist, but come on, dude, lighten up.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoadRash 0 #12 December 24, 2004 QuoteThank you for posting this, I am not a believer but I have always felt that if there was a God, would he not appear to different communities in a way that is most easy for their culture to accept? Since most religions really try to promote the same good kinds of behavior embodied in the golden rule, is it that much of a stretch to suggest that there is but one God represented differently by different cultures? Being a non-believer does not stop me from wanting to wish all of you a Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukah or Best of the Holidays. (you get to pick the sentiment that hits home for you!) Edited to add: I sing in a Barbershop quartet. On Boxing day I'll being singing 3 Christmas carols for a church service. I (an atheist) sing lead, the bass is Jewish, baritone and tenor both Christians. I agree with this post...and would like to say thanks for posting this thread Chris...I hope you have a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year...~R+R...Now I feel like breaking out in song......~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #13 December 24, 2004 QuoteIts pretty simple. Its in Black and well Parchment. As is the Treaty with Tripoli of 1797. I think the problem people have with many Christians is not the religion or their practice of it, but the proselytizing that Christians are prone to, more than any other religion I know of. I have yet to have any Jews or Muslims come to my door trying to convert me. Anyhow, I am right now listening to the Festival of Nine Lessons and Carols from the Chapel of King's College, Cambridge, broadcast on NPR, something I have done every Dec.24 since around 1956. Apparently this has over 400,000,000 listeners wordwide, which probably makes it the most widely heard Christian service in the world. Merry Christmas... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #14 December 24, 2004 QuoteI think the problem people have with many Christians is not the religion or their practice of it, but the proselytizing that Christians are prone to, more than any other religion I know of. I have yet to have any Jews or Muslims Rabbi's are supposed to turn a person away three times before they are allowed to convert. The whole time they try to talk them out of it. BTW, Im not Jewish either."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #15 December 24, 2004 If you can't handle it, do what Paul Harvey says,"ear plugs and the bathroom". Only once in the bathroom, your can't come out until the last Christmas decoration comes down. Take lots of beerDo your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #16 December 24, 2004 QuoteBUZZZT! Wrong answer please try again. According to written evidence from the FF, they were not Christaian. You will notice that your DoI excerpt made no reference to Christ. Many non-Christians recognize a Creator, it is not an exclusively Christian term. QuoteEdit to add: Im not a Christian, but I can read. And I don't understand how people think its fine to attack Christianity, but will defend every other religion. I have yet to attack Christianity on this forum. Nor am I going to sit back while grossly unfounded claims are made by Christians for no other reason than to try and make their religion seem more important than all the others in this country. Happy Yule!Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
profallrate 0 #17 December 24, 2004 To those of us who beleive, MERRY CHRISTMAS. To those who do not, MERRY CHRISTMAS. I hope everyone is safe, happy, healthy, warm, dry, and well fed, and in the company of friends and loved ones. To those of us SKYDIVERS who are actually out there SKYDIVING this weekend(instead of in front of the computer screen), I hope you can stay safe, warm, dry, and well fed and in good company. MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL! .........................................................................------------------------------------------------- Lord please help me to be the person that my dog thinks I am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #18 December 24, 2004 QuoteThat is an incorrect statement. Our Founding Fathers were not Christian. George Washington never took communion. “[T]he Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion...” --Treaty of Tripoli; Ratified by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams on 10 June, 1797. Christianity in itself is not a "religion", rather is refers to a whole group of doctrines which share some commonality in the belief of Jesus. Many of these Christian faiths do not take communion. In fact, I think Catholics and Episcapalians are the only two that do (I could be wrong).So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #19 December 24, 2004 QuoteChristianity in itself is not a "religion", rather is refers to a whole group of doctrines which share some commonality in the belief of Jesus. Many of these Christian faiths do not take communion. In fact, I think Catholics and Episcapalians are the only two that do (I could be wrong). We have a winner! All it takes to be a Christian is a belief that Jesus was the Savior...Religions have split based on the beliefs of HOW to worship, or other trivial manners. One religion was created just so the King could get divorced. Others say you have to be dunked to be Baptised, others say just a sprinking of water is all that is needed. So it is VERY possible to be a Christian without Communion, or even Baptism. I have read several reports of the Founding Fathers that show they did believe in Christ. They in most cases did not push it on the new Country the formed for fear of creating a situation just like England and France had in the 1600-1700's."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #20 December 24, 2004 Do you believe everything you read "on-line"? Surely, no despot, anti-Christian zealot or anyone else would post false statements "on-line"!? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #21 December 24, 2004 Quote Seperation of Church and State is one of the most mis-interpreted parts in the Constitution. That's your opinion. The supreme court ultimately decides what the founding fathers meant, and they've fairly consistently ruled in favor of a rather stout wall between the two. From the Declaration: ...to which the laws of nature and of nature's God ... ...all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator... ... appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of... I find it very telling that the founding fathers went to such great lengths to omit any reference to a specific religion's god. Personal correspondence from the Jefferson and others makes it exceedingly clear that this was intentional. Particularly when other historical documents state explicitly that our government is in no way founded upon the Christian religion. QuoteBill of Rights Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... All that says is that we will not have a Government sponsored Religion like the Church of England, or allow the Church to run the Government which was quite the problem back then in both England and France. It also says that we will not prohibit any other religions. Its pretty simple. Its in Black and well Parchment. I fail to see how that is hard to understand. What you fail to see is that there are conflicts between various aspects of the constitution and bill of rights. It's cut and dry on paper but a little messier in the real world. In theory, we are all guaranteed free speach, but that doesn't mean we can say anything we want, anywhere we want. I can't get up on a podium and tell people to kill Christians or assassinate Bush for example. Why? Because even though I'm theoretically entitled to free speach, that speach crosses a line that violates other rules our society has. I fail to see how *that* is hard to understand. Quote Edit to add: Im not a Christian, but I can read. And I don't understand how people think its fine to attack Christianity, but will defend every other religion. I missed the part where anyone attacked Christianity. Could you provide some of that evidence you've been ranting about? -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #22 December 24, 2004 QuoteChristianity in itself is not a "religion", rather is refers to a whole group of doctrines which share some commonality in the belief of Jesus. Many of these Christian faiths do not take communion. In fact, I think Catholics and Episcapalians are the only two that do (I could be wrong). True, not all denominations of Christianity take Communion (from the same root origin as communism, BTW), however, it was offered at the Church Washington attended with his family, but he consistantly refused it. I have nothing against Christianity; I was raised a Christian. I do, hawever, take offense at our nation's history being perverted so as to make Christian zealots out of men who were, in actuality, not Christians. This country was not founded upon Christian (or any other religion's) values. It was founded on the principle of liberty.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #23 December 24, 2004 Quote “[T]he Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion...” --Treaty of Tripoli; Ratified by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams on 10 June, 1797. It's not as though this is not a matter of public record. I don't know how much more clearly it could be stated. And, considering Adams signed the Constitution, it is safe to say he was qualified to make the statement.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #24 December 24, 2004 Quote All it takes to be a Christian is a belief that Jesus was the Savior...Religions have split based on the beliefs of HOW to worship, or other trivial manners. Yep, and occasionally they kill each other over such trivia. Quote I have read several reports of the Founding Fathers that show they did believe in Christ. Some of them did, some of them did not. Collectively, they were in agreement that the government be secular. Quote They in most cases did not push it on the new Country the formed for fear of creating a situation just like England and France had in the 1600-1700's. Ding, ding! As you said, we have a winner. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #25 December 24, 2004 QuoteQuoteChristianity in itself is not a "religion", rather is refers to a whole group of doctrines which share some commonality in the belief of Jesus. Many of these Christian faiths do not take communion. In fact, I think Catholics and Episcapalians are the only two that do (I could be wrong). True, not all denominations of Christianity take Communion (from the same root origin as communism, BTW), however, it was offered at the Church Washington attended with his family, but he consistantly refused it. I have nothing against Christianity; I was raised a Christian. I do, hawever, take offense at our nation's history being perverted so as to make Christian zealots out of men who were, in actuality, not Christians. This country was not founded upon Christian (or any other religion's) values. It was founded on the principle of liberty. Newsflash, much of the world perception of us is as a deeply religious, or spiritual country, with strong Judeo/Christian values engrained in the growth of our society. They aren't far off the mark in my opinion. It is a double-edged sword, it's also not a 100% correct perception. Individual liberties, back in the 18th century, were partially defined by one's faith. Secularism barely existed back then, if at all. People were burning witches at the stake, Europe was a series of monarchies with bishops of one church or another pushing their Kings around, Kings that were "embodiments" of God. Religious persecution was a strong emmigration factor to get people to the "new world". Secularism is now abound all over the "old world" and the void of morality or moral guidance is now showing in the forms of scandals, creaking social systems and my own perception of dissatisfaction amongst a common man trying to make his way through a system that thwarts, rather than supports creative thinking.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
