turtlespeed 220 #76 December 29, 2004 QuoteQuotebut stay the fuck out of other peples problems until you can sort your own out first Does that mean we should not give any aid to other countries? I mean minding our own business and all. I believe he means that we should let them control what we do. We have money and we should let everyone else have it. I like your idea better - lets pull everyone out of everywhere - and that means EVERY WHERE - all global help - everywhere - no more grain going over seas, no more exports AT ALL. No money - no clothes no aid, no military help - It really surprises me how fucking ungrateful people can be - I would like to see their faces if that were a real possibnility. Be careful what you wish for.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #77 December 29, 2004 Another framer of the Constitution QuoteJohn Jay, one of the framers of the Constitution, was appointed by George Washington in 1789 to be the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States (and later served two terms as governor of New York). He wrote, in a private letter (1797) to clergyman Jedidiah Morse: Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #78 December 29, 2004 Ron, did you or did you not write: "That does not mean that the US was not founded on Christain (sic) beliefs." in post 39 of this thread? Ever since you've been back-pedalling and trying to turn "Christian" into "religious". You've given proof that certain of the founders were Christians, but no-one has denied that.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #79 December 29, 2004 Like you, I'm getting confused. Ron and Turtle both are saying that no one will admit that the country was founded by religious men. I don't see anyone denying that, and I don't know what point they're trying to make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #80 December 29, 2004 QuoteRon, did you or did you not write: "That does not mean that the US was not founded on Christain (sic) beliefs." in post 39 of this thread? Ever since you've been back-pedalling and trying to turn "Christian" into "religious". You've given proof that certain of the founders were Christians, but no-one has denied that. In response to his statement QuoteSome of them did, some of them did not. Collectively, they were in agreement that the government be secular. "That does not mean that the US was not founded on Christain (sic) beliefs." Is a valid answer. Notice the ....does NOT mean the ..... in there? Just because they wanted to prevent the Church running the State, or the State running the Church does not mean they were not Christian, and they did not base the Nation on their beliefs...Which just happen to be Christian. I can agree that the intent was not to have the Church run the Government, or the Government run the Church. But it is quite clear that this Nation was founded on Christian Principals... Using the Bible to swear in our offices. Using the Bible to swear in witnesses. Even later when "In God we Trust" was put on our money. Or "One Nation under God" was added to our pledge. Or how you claim the "religious right" put Bush into office. So a Government of the people is going to include the religion of those people. And as you like to say that Adams Treaty stated that we are not based on Christianity, he himself mentioned Christianity in his oath of office."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #81 December 30, 2004 QuoteAs for my next post: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *** -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That does not mean that the US was not founded on Christain beliefs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Was in response tou you saying they wanted the Government to be secular...Just because you may WANT it to be secular does not mean it was not based on certain principals. There is a pretty big difference between founding a country on Christian beliefs (ie. Jesus as the Son of God, Creation, etc.) and Christian principles (ie. tolerance of those that are different than we are, pacifism, honesty, charity), which are shared by most all religions. You have stated both, but I am interested in which one you meant. Have you flipped, Ron, or just flopped? I understand why you like Shrub so well; he won't admit when he is wrong, either.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #82 December 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteRon: It's clear in your first post, #9 in this thread: Ron's busted That you're specifically referring to Christianity Wrong he said the founding Fathers were not Christain...And he was wrong. A categorical statement that ALL of the founding fathers were, or were not Christian is false either way. That's not in dispute, AFAIK. That doesn't have any bearing on the fact that you 1st stated that the US was founded on the Christian religion, and then back pedaled and flatly denied doing so. You've contradicted yourself and it's public record. If you simply failed to make it clear what you meant, that'd be fine if you'd clarified your meaning at the first sign that it was misunderstood. But you didn't. Instead, you chose to deny what you'd clearly written, and even claimed you'd written something entirely different. Quote I also said I was not a Christain...And my sister was. Go fish. No one disputes this, but it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Quote As for my next post: "That does not mean that the US was not founded on Christain beliefs." Was in response tou you saying they wanted the Government to be secular...Just because you may WANT it to be secular does not mean it was not based on certain principals. As was pointed out by JCD(?), there's a significant difference between Christian beliefs and Christian principles. If you'd said the latter, I wouldn't necessarily disagree, except I'd also note that those principles are by and large not unique to Christians. Deists, atheists, and many others share similar values and live by similar principles. This reality renders your presumed point moot. Quote QuoteIs the fact that you've dug your own grave on this why you've resorted to insinuating that I plagiarized a quote from Douglas Adams? When you can't win the argument on merit, try character assassination? I did not see it as assasination. You however seem to be fine with taking someones work and saying its your own, then trying to blame me when you get caught. Says tons about your level of character, so this is done. What exactly have I been caught at? Using the word 'panic'? I plagiarized nothing. Since you can't recognize the glaring distinction between "Don't Panic" and "If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive.", it's not surprising that the other points people have made in this discussion are lost on you. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #83 December 30, 2004 QuoteDoes that mean we should not give any aid to other countries? I mean minding our own business and all. ------------------------------------------------- um i think giving aid is a bit different to carpet bombing, you wanker"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #84 December 30, 2004 Quoteum i think giving aid is a bit different to carpet bombing Then you should have specified that - your post said we should keep out of other people's business until we've straightened out our own. The message is only as clear as the speaker makes it. *** you wanker What is it with all the personal attacks with you guys?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #84 December 30, 2004 Quoteum i think giving aid is a bit different to carpet bombing Then you should have specified that - your post said we should keep out of other people's business until we've straightened out our own. The message is only as clear as the speaker makes it. *** you wanker What is it with all the personal attacks with you guys?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #85 December 30, 2004 QuoteThere is a pretty big difference between founding a country on Christian beliefs (ie. Jesus as the Son of God, Creation, etc.) and Christian principles No not really. To quote the Bible...Its been a while so bear with me... Galations 6:16 (I think like I said its been a while) Faith without works is dead. But thanks for playing today."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #86 December 30, 2004 QuoteAs was pointed out by JCD(?), there's a significant difference between Christian beliefs and Christian principles. No, not really. But thanks for playing. QuoteWhat exactly have I been caught at? Using the word 'panic'? I plagiarized nothing. Since you can't recognize the glaring distinction between "Don't Panic" and "If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive.", it's not surprising that the other points people have made in this discussion are lost on you. You wrote an exact line from another and claimed it was your own. Call it what you want, but in school you would get an "F" for that. But if you sleep better thinking otherwise...Fine. Like I said, Thanks for playing, but I see no need to discuss anything with someone like that. So good day."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #87 December 30, 2004 QuoteI mean minding our own business and all. Minding our own business includes not handing out money. Quoteum i think giving aid is a bit different to carpet bombing, you wanker Nice Personal Attack! If you can't keep from atacking me with blatant insults...don't expect me to care what you write."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #88 December 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteAs was pointed out by JCD(?), there's a significant difference between Christian beliefs and Christian principles. No, not really. But thanks for playing. Your resonses have degenerated to the "No they aren't!" portion of an argument typically heard in a sandbox. Quote QuoteWhat exactly have I been caught at? Using the word 'panic'? I plagiarized nothing. Since you can't recognize the glaring distinction between "Don't Panic" and "If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive.", it's not surprising that the other points people have made in this discussion are lost on you. You wrote an exact line from another and claimed it was your own. If I did, you ought to take great pleasure in citing what I copied, and the page(s) it can be found in. You can't do that, because you are, once again, wrong. That's libel, and each time you repeat the unfounded accusation, you look worse. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #89 December 30, 2004 QuoteThat's libel, and each time you repeat the unfounded accusation, you look worse. True Side note: Whoever wrote the quote, it's a good one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #90 December 30, 2004 Quote...you wanker This is a personal attack. Please review the forum rules, and consider yourself warned. I will ban you for 14 days at your next offense. Thanks.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #91 December 30, 2004 QuoteYour resonses have degenerated to the "No they aren't!" portion of an argument typically heard in a sandbox. I'm done with you. You refuse to see evidence. QuoteIf I did, you ought to take great pleasure in citing what I copied, and the page(s) it can be found in. You can't do that, because you are, once again, wrong. That's libel, and each time you repeat the unfounded accusation, you look worse. Kepp saying that. Maybe someone will believe you. I for one really don't care. You did copy it and claim it is yours. You might have done it by accident, but is now clear you did it knowing it. Keep lying to yourself and have a nice day."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #92 December 31, 2004 QuoteQuoteYour resonses have degenerated to the "No they aren't!" portion of an argument typically heard in a sandbox. I'm done with you. You refuse to see evidence. QuoteIf I did, you ought to take great pleasure in citing what I copied, and the page(s) it can be found in. You can't do that, because you are, once again, wrong. That's libel, and each time you repeat the unfounded accusation, you look worse. Kepp saying that. Maybe someone will believe you. I for one really don't care. You did copy it and claim it is yours. You might have done it by accident, but is now clear you did it knowing it. Keep lying to yourself and have a nice day. Is there any procedure through which one can apply for a waiver to the no personal attacks rules? Pretty please? -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #93 December 31, 2004 QuoteQuoteThat's libel, and each time you repeat the unfounded accusation, you look worse. True Side note: Whoever wrote the quote, it's a good one. Thank you on both counts. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #94 January 1, 2005 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That is an incorrect statement. Our Founding Fathers were not Christian. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BUZZZT! Wrong answer please try again. ---------------- Actually, they were Diests...they did not acknowledge God by name. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #95 January 1, 2005 Capitalism works on the premise that one can obtain labor at a lower cost than its actual value, ie the exploitation of workers. --------------- Since when? That is how WE approach capitalism. In its purity, capitalism represents a balanced exchange for goods or services. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #96 January 2, 2005 QuoteActually, they were Diests...they did not acknowledge God by name. Adams mentions Christianity by name twice in his Inaugural address."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #97 January 2, 2005 QuoteSince when? That is how WE approach capitalism. In its purity, capitalism represents a balanced exchange for goods or services. The profit of capitalism comes from workers working for wages, rather than owning the fruits of their labor. The wages are worth less. That is what makes it capitalism. Those wiyth the capital hire those without capital (workers) at a cost that, when added to the profit, equals the value of the labor.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #98 January 2, 2005 QuoteThose wiyth the capital hire those without capital (workers) at a cost that, when added to the profit, equals the value of the labor. And when someone is not there to pay the wages, the labor is valueless. So, it is the fruits of the labor of the company owner that allows the workers to realize their own. Why should that company owner not make a profit? One needs the other. The company owner needs the worker to produce, and the worker needs the company owner to give value to his/her labor. The idea is that they negotiate a wage with which both parties are happy. Does that always happen? No. Is that the fault of capitalism? No. People are going to misuse and abuse systems, regardless of what is in place. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #99 January 3, 2005 Before capitalism came to America, we had skilled craftsman. Along came Henry Ford with his assembly line, and suddenly there was minimal need for skill, thus more competition for any given job. Where workers had once sold the fruits of their own labors to earn their living, they now are paid less for their time, so that a middleman, who contributes only capital, but no work, can make a profit. I'm not arguing that Capitalism is 100% evil. It's not. For example, I would oppose nationalization of parachute equipment manufacturers. The demand for skydiving equipment is so low compared to the size of the nation, it would bog down in bureacracy, with little to no application of advances in technology. Profit currently drives the system so we can fly extremes and velocities, if we want. However, that same profit in healthcare, or education, is nothing more than a drain on society. The demand for services is nearly equal to the national population, so there is no need for additional market motivation.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #100 January 3, 2005 QuoteHowever, that same profit in healthcare, or education, is nothing more than a drain on society. You are either ignoring or are unaware of the fact that profit, in any business, is a motivator to do better. Profit motivates people to innovate, create, enhance, streamline and refine. While there is no risk in people no longer getting sick or needing education -- there is risk is in whether or not the organization you've invested in can do it better than the next guy. And either way, the public wins via the above mentioned inherent benefits of competition. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
