penniless 0 #151 January 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteThat is certainly true. Doesn't mean it's right. Then leave. DZ.com is what it is. Don't like it? Leave. Feel the Moderators are unfair? Leave. Don't like that DZ.com ain't no damned democracy? Leave. Wan't a democratic DZ.com style web page? Leave and go build it. Try using Rec.Skydiving as a model for your anarchy-governed site. DZ.com not good enough for you? Leave. There always has to be a boogeyman to justify authoritarianism. Jews, terrorists, commies, rec.skydiving Quote I think is very disrespectful to walk into a free site where Moderators work hard to be fair and enforce the rules and whine that it is unfair. It is like a homeless person bitching that the free soup isn't the kind they like. Do you want the soup or not!?!? Don't want the free soup? DON'T EAT IT AND GET OUT OF THE WAY OF THE PERSON WHO DOES!!!! The soup isn't free, it's provided by the participants. People don't come here to look at the template, as nice as it is, any more than they go to the library to look at the ceiling. This is a VERY NICE SITE but its value comes from the content, which the participants provide. I sometimes think the administrators forget that we are not parasites, we are symbiotes. Just IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #152 January 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteDerek, The opening sentence in this thread reads: "Please don't ban me for this; " Now, does that indicate anything to you? Do you not think there's the slightest suggestion in that sentence that something is amiss with the banning policy here? Or is Mardigrasbob deluded? You're kidding right!?! Please don't slap me for this; but your logic has nothing to do with actual enforcement of this site. [MY GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE! First off let me thank Sangiro H.H. and the whole gang of moderators I love you guys!for an extremly good website for us crazy folks who jump out of perfectly good airplanes. I started this poll during a delusional moment and I was truely interested in the results, but was somewhat blown away by six pages in 24hrs. The mere fact that this has not been locked or deteriorated into a hatefest delights me. Debate and delusion are alive and well on DZ.com. got to go, knees in breeze! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #153 January 6, 2005 QuoteThere always has to be a boogeyman to justify authoritarianism. Jews, terrorists, commies, rec.skydiving Huh? QuoteThe soup isn't free, it's provided by the participants. That is where we disagree then. I don't feel DZ.com exists because of my input. I like learning, discussing, etc. This forum is the nicest place for me to do that. If I felt that I was getting screwed over, I would leave. And I would come out ahead, since I didn't spend anything. I could also just read and not post, basically getting something for nothing. I don't call up Yahoo and complain that sometimes normal e-mails go to my Spam box or sometimes e-mails take more than .2 seconds to arrive. I don't think I have any position bitching to Yahoo because their free service isn't always 100%. If Yahoo was that bad, I would buy an e-mail service and then have the right to complain about any problems to whoever I bought the service from. But as long as it's free, I'll count my self as ahead of the game and take what I can get. I simply cannot understand why people would complain about this site. I can see offering suggestions for making it better, as I'm sure anyone appreciates a good idea. But if they say, thanks, but no thanks, I'll either decide I can live with it or not. I don't think Yahoo would give a damn if I quit using their free e-mail service. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakbrother 0 #154 January 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteThere always has to be a boogeyman to justify authoritarianism. Jews, terrorists, commies, rec.skydiving Huh? QuoteThe soup isn't free, it's provided by the participants. That is where we disagree then. I don't feel DZ.com exists because of my input. I like learning, discussing, etc. Derek "Think I wonder how many incidents have been avoided because DZ.com exists?" I find it very hard to believe that you so readily discount the contributions of the users. Who wrote the safety articles and accident analyses tha allowed incident to be avoided? Who wrote the equipment reviews? Who writes the tips on camera and video techniques. I know a now banned guy who contributed a lot of safety stuff. Do you just consider these people parasites?. . www.freak-brother.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #155 January 6, 2005 QuoteDo you just consider these people parasites? Not at all, since I consider myself one of those contributers. That doesn't mean I have the right to tell HH how to run his site. That doesn't give me the right to break the rules. If I am banned for this post, that is his right. If I don't like that I can be banned anytime for anything (which he is nice enough not to do), then I am free to not click on www.dropzone.com. Posters have not earned anything, giving them any rights. The site is what it is. If you want to use it, go ahead, but understand you are subject to the owner's will. You aren't owed anything by HH. You have no rights on DZ.com That being said, the Moderators do a great and difficult job, for free, to make this site a good place. If you disagree, offer up a suggestion, but don't be under the illusion that that suggestion has to be acted upon or that you are owed something. QuoteI know a now banned guy who contributed a lot of safety stuff. I don't know who you are talking about, but he must have over estimated his value to DZ.com if he is banned. Writing articles doesn't put you above the rules. The articles, etc I have written doesn't mean I won't be banned if I deserve it. And that is being nice, I could be banned even if I don't deserve it. I simply can't believe people are wining about how DZ.com is run. OK, I think I've said everything 3 different ways now. Read my posts on the subject and draw your own conclusions. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #156 January 6, 2005 It isn't just one user, but all users put together. The users provide the content of the forums. Sangiro provides the venue. Without the venue, you end up with a disorganized mess. Without the users, you end up with an empty forum. I think it's kind of like the government providing roads, and the citizens providing cars. If there weren't any roads, but a lot of cars, we'd have chaos. If there are no cars, it makes the roads kind of pointless. However, with roads and cars comes the need for laws and law enforcement. With a well run forum, there is a need for rules and moderators. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #157 January 6, 2005 Quote With a well run forum, there is a need for rules and moderators. ... that the users perceive as fair. Some people appear unable or unwilling to distinguish between the canvas and paint and Mona Lisa, the vinyl and Beethoven's 9th, the paper and ink and Hamlet,, the chunk of marble and David. Ron said it a few posts back - the poll shows that a majority of users here perceive a bias, and they are just the ones that are still around to vote.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #158 January 6, 2005 Quote- the poll shows that a majority of users here perceive a bias, and they are just the ones that are still around to vote. There are 106 votes - out of 35,000+ registered users. A lot of those users never even click on Speaker's Corner, so this poll is hardly representative of how all dropzone.com users feel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #159 January 6, 2005 QuoteThere are 106 votes - out of 35,000+ registered users. A lot of those users never even click on Speaker's Corner, so this poll is hardly representative of how all dropzone.com users feel. I bet most of the moderation is in SC. So those in SC would have a better idea of bias than someone who never posts, or just reads the Saftey and Training."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #160 January 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteThere are 106 votes - out of 35,000+ registered users. A lot of those users never even click on Speaker's Corner, so this poll is hardly representative of how all dropzone.com users feel. I bet most of the moderation is in SC. So those in SC would have a better idea of bias than someone who never posts, or just reads the Saftey and Training. And I bet most of the people who get warned or banned are the ones who post a lot in SC - so they're the ones who are more likely to feel like the moderators are biased (and the ones more likely to be voting in this poll). And just because they feel like the moderators are biased doesn't mean that they are. I'm sure there are cases where everything was not 100% fair (such is life), but I think in general the moderators do a really good job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #161 January 6, 2005 QuoteQuote- the poll shows that a majority of users here perceive a bias, and they are just the ones that are still around to vote. There are 106 votes - out of 35,000+ registered users. A lot of those users never even click on Speaker's Corner, so this poll is hardly representative of how all dropzone.com users feel. A lot of those users never log in at all. A poll is about sampling. I think this is a fair sample of SC users. We have just selected USPA BOD. I'll bet no-one got 17,000 votes, or even remotely close. Does that invalidate the election? What % of eligible citizens voted for Bush last Nov? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #162 January 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteThere are 106 votes - out of 35,000+ registered users. A lot of those users never even click on Speaker's Corner, so this poll is hardly representative of how all dropzone.com users feel. I bet most of the moderation is in SC. So those in SC would have a better idea of bias than someone who never posts, or just reads the Saftey and Training. And I bet most of the people who get warned or banned are the ones who post a lot in SC - so they're the ones who are more likely to feel like the moderators are biased (and the ones more likely to be voting in this poll). . How can someone who is banned vote in this poll? That was Ron's point (one of them). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymama 37 #163 January 6, 2005 Interesting thread... I think you all are really overestimating how many people get banned around here. If you look at the # of users compared to the # of bannings, it would probably come up to less than 1%! As far as people saying that men get banned more than women, it's probably true. It's also probably true because most women know how to play "nice" more so than men. As Flyangel2 said, there are ways to get your point across and still tow the line. Finally, as far as playing favorites, you all need to remember that we do have a special Team Forum and we do discuss what is going on in the forums all the time. The Speaker's Corner bannings was heavily discussed by almost every moderator we have. Just because one Mod did the banning doesn't mean that it was only that Moderator's opinion.She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man, because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #164 January 6, 2005 QuoteInteresting thread... I think you all are really overestimating how many people get banned around here. If you look at the # of users compared to the # of bannings, it would probably come up to less than 1%! Is that 1% of all registered users, 1% of anyone who ever posted to any forum, 1% of SC posters? 1% of those who post to SC at least once a week? I can't imagine many get banned from History and Trivia or Relative Work (could be mistaken).If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #165 January 6, 2005 It might be a fair sampling of SC users, but it's not a fair sampling of all the regular dropzone.com users. (I don't know how many log on regularly, but I'll bet it's considerably more than 106.) And for the 64 SC users who think the moderators play favorites, what do you suggest that sangiro do? Fire them? Reduce their $0 salary? (I see that Ron has already made one useful suggestion and that it is being taken into consideration. And actually, the "suggestions and feedback" forum would probably be a better place for bringing up subjects such as this - rather than starting a "gripe" thread.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #166 January 6, 2005 QuoteA lot of those users never log in at all. A poll is about sampling. I think this is a fair sample of SC users. This isnt sampling since polls here are open to people to respond, as opposed to a random selection of posters. If you think the moderating is fair, good on ya. If you dont, either live with it or find another way to pass your hours if its too much to bare and keeps you awake at night....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,457 #167 January 6, 2005 I have a feeling that there isn't any single person (barring perhaps Sangiro -- after all, it's his soup bowl/living room/boat/table/whatever) without whose input dz.com cannot survive and prosper. After all, there are lots and lots of very knowledgeable people out there who don't post to dz.com ever, and it survives without them, too. Maybe it would be richer, but, well, right now it is what it is. There just isn't anyone that special, ya know? Me included. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #168 January 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe soup isn't free, it's provided by the participants. That is where we disagree then. I don't feel DZ.com exists because of my input. I like learning, discussing, etc. This forum is the nicest place for me to do that. If I felt that I was getting screwed over, I would leave. If enough people left, the site would become unviable. The bulk of the value is provided by the users. That said, the value provided by Speaker's is pretty minimal. If political discussions outside of skydiving legal philosophy were removed, few would be any worse off. But it is extremely difficult to have established bbs communities that don't topic drift into the current elections, etc. Anyone can create an online forum - software is readily available. The challenge is to create the community, esp when lurkers tend to outnumber posters. Lots of dead ones out there, with 10 or 20 active posters. No critical mass. If too many people feel they're treated badly, they'll leave and make those cupcakes. OTOH, if there is total anarchy, different people will leave (ie, factory reps). So you want to accommodate as many as you can, sacrificing if necessary the least valueable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #169 January 6, 2005 QuoteThis isnt sampling since polls here are open to people to respond, as opposed to a random selection of posters. Those polls allow you to vote more than once. If you check as a guest you can vote once, then vote once you log in. Also, as a guest you can keep voting if you clear out your cookies. Yes, it's stupid and childish but I bet people do it._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #170 January 6, 2005 Maybe while you're at it you could do a pie chart, regression analysis, and a scatter graph. Then you'd REALLY have the answer. |I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #171 January 6, 2005 QuoteMaybe while you're at it you could do a pie chart, regression analysis, and a scatter graph. Then you'd REALLY have the answer The XL file is to big to attach"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #172 January 7, 2005 QuoteMaybe while you're at it you could do a pie chart, regression analysis, and a scatter graph. Then you'd REALLY have the answer. | That's it, the gloves are coming off. It's one thing to mock people, but's it's clearly another to mock statistics and graphical analysis. First one to pass out wins (but how will you know?) I'll go first. I'm sorry, what were we talking about? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwslut 0 #173 January 7, 2005 I simply can't believe people are wining about how DZ.com is run. ------------------------------------------------------------ I think people are voicing concerns in an open, mature manner. It's obviously a subject you feel strongly about. If one puts emotionality/loyalties aside, there is some excellent feedback on how to make a good site ...better. YMMVWhat could possibly go wrong? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #174 January 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteI thought it was him. Maybe it was someone else. I know it was a liberal greenie at any rate. The only other two people on the site that have been Greenies that aren't still greenies are Alan and Skybytch. Incorrect. Hooknswoop was formerly a moderator as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakbrother 0 #175 January 7, 2005 QuoteI simply can't believe people are wining about how DZ.com is run. ------------------------------------------------------------ I think people are voicing concerns in an open, mature manner. It's obviously a subject you feel strongly about. If one puts emotionality/loyalties aside, there is some excellent feedback on how to make a good site ...better. YMMV That will only work if someone takes notice rather than dismissing it as whining.. . www.freak-brother.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
