SpeedRacer 1 #26 January 5, 2005 Quotehas it occurred to you that there might be a reason nature gave rise to things such as humans? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yes, it's occured to me. Haven't figured it out yet though. You can find a benefit to the ecosystem for just about every living and non living thing on this planet except two. Viruses and humans. you are measuring all value based on cost to the ecosystem though. I'm saying that although that is important, there may be other values of worth. -------- and even if we stick to environmental concerns as the only concerns of value: the worst pollutants of all were the photosynthetic cyanobacteria during the PreCambrian era. They produced free oxygen (O2), a substance so caustic that it can oxidize iron. These cyanobacteria produced this dangerous waste product in such great amounts that it decimated the ecosystem & killed nearly all life forms present at that time. By far the worst air pollutant ever. Subsequent life forms actually had to evolve enzymes to neutralize the toxic effects of free oxygen. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #27 January 5, 2005 sorry SBS, I know what you said is not like christian fundamentalists. maybe I wasn't clear. I simply meant that the tsunami happened as a result of tectonic movement, not as nature's punishment for human's environmental pollution. and that to say it was is to manipulate the facts, just as much as saying the tsunami happened to punish non-christians. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #28 January 5, 2005 Understood. Thanks for the clarification. Steve_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #29 January 5, 2005 Quoteno it is just that we've modified our enviroment to the point where few pay attention to the senses they do have.... Or perhaps the human polulations there migrated rapidly from other environments not subject to Tsunamis too recently for natural selection to make them instinctively worried about the ground trembling. We have advanced brains with a lot of non instinctive learned behaviors in society, it's one thing that tends to distinguish us from animals. Most animals would be pretty flawed in downtown NY or the antarctic, but man manages and adapts. Look at a newborn zebra, it's pretty much ready to go, just add milk & grass, a human child has a lot to learn. We're supposed to teach our kids survival skills suited to the environments they will encounter as a substitute for instincs we can't posess for all occasions, it's part of being flexible, that failed in a lot of cases here. Although it didn't work for everyone, there are anecdotes of local customs and lore saving some families. They learned, they passed along the lore through generations and they survived this event. Next time around there will be more of their descendants around to repeat the process. Man isn't flawed because of this, feeling stressed and heading for the hills whenever the ground trembled would make for a bad office worker in downtown SanFrancisco, and could be fatal for someone living near an active volcano. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #30 January 5, 2005 So you are proposing that our adaptive strength exists at the expense of our instincts? Interesting. Also sounds reasonable.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #31 January 5, 2005 QuoteSo you are proposing that our adaptive strength exists at the expense of our instincts? Interesting. Also sounds reasonable. How else do armies get troops to advance into machine gun fire? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #32 January 5, 2005 QuoteQuoteSo you are proposing that our adaptive strength exists at the expense of our instincts? Interesting. Also sounds reasonable. How else do armies get troops to advance into machine gun fire? For that matter, how does a skydiver get the will to exit? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #33 January 5, 2005 QuoteSo you are proposing that our adaptive strength exists at the expense of our instincts? Interesting. Also sounds reasonable. I'd say an alternative interpretation is that we've evolved away from *some* instincts due to the nature of the environments we exist in, or perhaps we never had them. I don't think it's a given that one is at the expense of another although we can train to override some instincts. We all have instincts or deeply imprinted responses, they evidently don't include whatever instincts led animals to retreat from a pending Tsunami (if that happened). I think if we can train to overcome some instinctive responses it's possible animals can too given the right stimulus. As humans we may have more of a capacity to override/suppress/ignore/unlearn what instincts we have. w.r.t. some of the comments, it's a safe bet we don't have any instincts on machineguns, but possibly we do to big flashes, bangs and the conscious concept of death. I have no idea how our conscious mind is wired to our subconscious and instinctive sides, a conscious knowledge of death and danger can produce a visceral response to stimulus we obviously have no genetic predisposition on. But similar sorts of effects have been seen in animals since Pavlov & his dog. It's not entirely sensible to assume that aspects of our mind are independently evolved. We're an integrated organism and conscious knowledge of abstract concepts may play a role in our own intincts, that complexity may even confuse of confound more primitive instinctive mechanisms. The bottom line is I just don't know it's interesting to ponder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #34 January 5, 2005 the other problem to ponder is what exactly is "instinct"? it has never been clearly defined. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScubaSteve 0 #35 January 5, 2005 We can save the planet from outsde forces like an astorid. Hey i seen it in a movie. We can also fend of alien attackers, also from a movie. Maybe thats our purpose. Can any other spieces do that. Or maybe we havent developed enough yet to understand out purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #36 January 5, 2005 It has been said that we are nature's way of Knowing itself. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #37 January 5, 2005 QuoteWe can save the planet from outsde forces like an astorid. Hey i seen it in a movie. We can also fend of alien attackers, also from a movie. Maybe thats our purpose. Can any other spieces do that. Or maybe we havent developed enough yet to understand out purpose. We have a purpose? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #38 January 5, 2005 QuoteWe can save the planet from outsde forces like an astorid. Hey i seen it in a movie. We can also fend of alien attackers, also from a movie. Maybe thats our purpose. Can any other spieces do that. Or maybe we havent developed enough yet to understand out purpose. Maybe we are the alien attackers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #39 January 5, 2005 QuoteMaybe we are the alien attackers. no, that would be me. Time to play "Hide the Pellet!" Bend over! Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeryde13 0 #40 January 6, 2005 grrrrrrrrrrrr, ruff, ruff ,rrrrrrrrruff_________________________________________ people see me as a challenge to their balance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #41 January 6, 2005 QuoteThere were virtually no animal deaths from the tsunamis. All the wild animals moved to higher ground just about everywhere it hit. Why all these other species of animal, but not humans? http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0104_050104_tsunami_animals.html People are too stupid to live. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #42 January 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteThere were virtually no animal deaths from the tsunamis. All the wild animals moved to higher ground just about everywhere it hit. Why all these other species of animal, but not humans? http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0104_050104_tsunami_animals.html People are too stupid to live. (Joke, not personal attack coming. Can't be too careful around here) They don't all swoop ponds. Nice avatar you have.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
