TomAiello 26 #51 January 10, 2005 Quote Is that a philosophy? Probably not. Now, let me hear about yours... To paraphrase Frank Yerby. I believe that every man has a right to a house, if he can afford it. And around that house, he has a right to build a fence. And in that fence, he may decide to put a gate. And in that house, he may keep a gun. And if anyone, be he the President of the United States, or the Secretary General of the United Nations, walks through that gate without permission, he has a right to use that gun.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tantalum 0 #52 January 10, 2005 You just made the point for the Iraqi resistance... I rest my case. Quote Quote Is that a philosophy? Probably not. Now, let me hear about yours... To paraphrase Frank Yerby. I believe that every man has a right to a house, if he can afford it. And around that house, he has a right to build a fence. And in that fence, he may decide to put a gate. And in that house, he may keep a gun. And if anyone, be he the President of the United States, or the Secretary General of the United Nations, walks through that gate without permission, he has a right to use that gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #53 January 10, 2005 Quote And if anyone, be he the President of the United States, or the Secretary General of the United Nations, walks through that gate without permission, he has a right to use that gun. What if the Pres/ SecGen walks through that gate because the man's children asked for help? What if they walk through that gate under suspicion that you might become aggressive, if left alone?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #54 January 10, 2005 Quote You just made the point for the Iraqi resistance... I rest my case. Ok, whatever. I missed the part where I was expressing any opinion about Iraq (or current world events). Where was that, again? Remember, I was asking about your "nothing justifies violence" philosophy--not about any particular current events. It seems like you think I'm arguing some side here. I'm really not. edit: By the way, wouldn't "nothing justifies killing" mean that resisting violent occupation was unjustified, since even violent occupation doesn't justify responding with violence?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tantalum 0 #55 January 10, 2005 Tom: not sure about the level of abstraction you are aiming for. Keep in mind that this threat (and, at least, my postings) always had a connection w/ events in Iraq. May I suggest to open another threat on Hegalian politics to which I may contribute, but not authoritatively. Enjoyed our civilized exchange. I am out of this threat: it has run its course. Til next time. Quote Quote You just made the point for the Iraqi resistance... I rest my case. Ok, whatever. I missed the part where I was expressing any opinion about Iraq (or current world events). Where was that, again? Remember, I was asking about your "nothing justifies violence" philosophy--not about any particular current events. It seems like you think I'm arguing some side here. I'm really not. edit: By the way, wouldn't "nothing justifies killing" mean that resisting violent occupation was unjustified, since even violent occupation doesn't justify responding with violence? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #56 January 10, 2005 While NPR is my favorite, http://news.google.com is my primary news source. It would have made it. It covers most all the news spectrum, from Rense to National Review. *** Funny how 1st hand accounts are not as accurate in your eyes as NPR. I saw a number of accounts of Iraqi's thanking the troops for freeing them. Perhaps your view of the world and the "evil US" shades what you see. You felt the 1st gulf war was all about oil and you were wrong then and wrong now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #57 January 10, 2005 Quote While I can rationally argue and disprove your point, I won't. Nice cop out -- in other words, you can't answer my questions. Ok. Quote After all, posting in this forum is not about convincing anyone that my position is right. Instead, it is about exposing everyone to a different line of thought. At least in my books... Spending time "exposing people to a different line of thought" without hope of convincing anyone of anything doesn't make sense. You stated earlier that you are here to "educate", which surely means you are here to convince people that you are "right", (which you aren't). . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #58 January 10, 2005 Quote Quote Quote So, if the kids asked you for help, would you call the cops? You mean like Sudan? Actually, I was thinking in pretty generic terms. I'm more interested in the general philosophy. If I had to pick a real world example, I'd use Auschwitz. Those "kids" didn't really rise up or anything, but I still think the cops needed to show up to stop the abuse. In Illinois the kids would be tansferred to the care of the state DCFS, which in repeated scandals has shown itself to be a bad and abusive surrogate parent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #59 January 10, 2005 Quote I think we should have figured out we weren't wanted there when they didn't welcome us in the streets as Rummy predicted.*** they did welcome us in the streets, where did you here otherwiseHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #60 January 10, 2005 Quote they did welcome us in the streets, where did you here otherwise Err .. in the news? Repeatedly. By many different news sources. The truth is that here and there Iraqis welcomed US forces in the streets, but it wasn't as Rumsfeld had expected (which was grateful Iraqis lining the streets, throwing flowers at the heroic US liberators). To be fair, because neither SH nor his sons, nor many of the top party people were captured many Iraqis who might have welcomed the US intervention were too cautious to do so. Maybe if the first US actions had been to find those people and to secure the country, instead of focussing on oil production things might have panned out differently. Anyway, that was then. Now, after months of ineffective security, hopeless communication with the Iraqis, piss-poor reconstruction, continuing high unemployment, relentless heavy-handedness, and countless deaths at the hands of US troops and insurgents, the vast majority of Iraqis absolutely do not want the coalition there. And who can blame them? The US bombed their civic infrastructure to shit. The US accidentally on purpose killed thousands of the Iraqis they were there to liberate. The US disbanded their armed forces, police and other security forces, leaving in its place near anarchy. The US allowed the total looting and destruction of their civic offices and other structures absolutely critical to the running of the country. And if all that wasn't dumb enough the US then sent in American companies to try to put it all back together again (oh and coincidentally make mega-bucks in the process) If you were an Iraqi, after all the shit that has gone on, would you want the US in your country? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #61 January 10, 2005 Quote Quote Quote Applies to interference in Sudan also, where the UN has repeatedly called for action to no avail. I agree. Nobody wants the police at their house unless they've been called. Sure, but when they're abusing their kids, it's probably better if the cops show, even if the parents haven't called. Following your analogy, it seems that the cops liked so much the living room and what it has that they don´t want to leave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #62 January 10, 2005 I think the main problem here is the inhability of some people to put themselves in the other side´s shoes. I very much doubt that any american, proud to be american, as some people likes to say, would accept an occupation/liberation force in their homeland that accidentally kills and torture his fellows americans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #63 January 10, 2005 Quote Quote Quote Quote Applies to interference in Sudan also, where the UN has repeatedly called for action to no avail. I agree. Nobody wants the police at their house unless they've been called. Sure, but when they're abusing their kids, it's probably better if the cops show, even if the parents haven't called. Following your analogy, it seems that the cops liked so much the living room and what it has that they don´t want to leave. Well, more accurately you might say that the cops decided that if they left without any adults in charge of the house, it might develop into a crack den. We're sort of straining the analogy here. I'm not expressing an opinion on what I think of the current US occupation of Iraq, morally. I think that politically it's necessary to the point of inevitablilty.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #64 January 10, 2005 Quote I very much doubt that any american, proud to be american, as some people likes to say, would accept an occupation/liberation force in their homeland that accidentally kills and torture his fellows americans. Certainly they would not. But the American people would be unlikely to accept a dictator who abducted and tortured his political opponents in the US, either. I can't say what I would think were I an Iraqi. I rather suspect I'd be one of the guys lobbing bombs around, but since I'm not there, I have no idea.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #65 January 10, 2005 Quote But the American people would be unlikely to accept a dictator who abducted and tortured his political opponents in the US, either. Fair enough, but dictators doesn´t have to be necesarily accepted by the people. They only need to be accepted by the military forces or an equally powerful group. I assure you that if it was up to the people there wouldn´t have been many dictators in history. But once they are in charge, it is up to the people to get rid of them. Unless some extreme circumstances, no one enjoys a foreign military in his country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DexterBase 1 #66 January 10, 2005 Quote ....the vast majority of Iraqis absolutely do not want the coalition there. Where do you get the information to quantify this statement? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #67 January 10, 2005 Quote Where do you get the information to quantify this statement? Take a look at this report: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5217874/site/newsweek/ of this poll http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5217741/site/newsweek/ Or this http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm Gallup have a whole load of polls saying the same kind of stuff, but you need to subscribe to get them in detail. Spend 10 minutes googling and you'll find a whole load more. Why do you ask anyway? Do you think they actually do want the coallition there? If so, what on earth gives you that idea? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #68 January 10, 2005 Quote If so, what on earth gives you that idea? Just judging by his previous posts, I'd say that his personal experience on the ground there is the thing that gives him that idea.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #69 January 10, 2005 But, he gets his news from reputable media sources... Dexter, Pajarito, DZJumper and the other guys on the ground are obviously either brainwashed or only being shown the "good stuff" I still believe that overall, the Coalition is doing good things over there. Are there some bad apples? Of course. But just because there are a few bad apples doesn't mean that the whole barrel is bad. It's too bad that some are so determined to find the bad in a situation that they can overlook the good...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #70 January 10, 2005 Quote But, he gets his news from reputable media sources... Dexter, Pajarito, DZJumper and the other guys on the ground are obviously either brainwashed or only being shown the "good stuff" I don't doubt that Dexter has had some iraqis tell him they are happy he is there. That is very different from suggesting that the majority want the US there. And frankly, a soldier on the ground gets a very blinkered view of the situation. It's a bit like suggesting that an insurance clerk has a better understanding of the running of the insurance company than market analysts specialising in insurance. The clerk is a small cog in a big machine. Additionally soldiers are of course fed propaganda by their superiors, so their picture of what is going on is bound to be more upbeat. Quote I still believe that overall, the Coalition is doing good things over there. Are there some bad apples? Of course. But just because there are a few bad apples doesn't mean that the whole barrel is bad. The question was not if the coalition are doing a good job but whether the Iraqis want the coalition there. Quote It's too bad that some are so determined to find the bad in a situation that they can overlook the good... You can turn that statement on it's head too. I guess the difference between my post and yours is that mine contains some evidence backing up my claim, whereas yours clearly does not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,031 #71 January 10, 2005 >Just judging by his previous posts, I'd say that his personal experience >on the ground there is the thing that gives him that idea. When I first got to Niger, I thought all the natives hated white people, based on my experience in Niamey. By the time I got to Sandire (a town of ~300 people) it seemed like they all loved white people. Even when you're actually there, you are often only exposed to the people who are pre-selected to hate you or like you. If you're an american tourist and you go to Paris, and you hit all the tourist spots, you're going to see parisians who deal with tourists all the time (and american tourists can be pretty rude; that works both ways.) If, on the other hand, you're a politician and you go only to events in paris put on by your supporters, you're going to see lots of nice people who support you. It all depends on the tiny fraction of people you meet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #72 January 10, 2005 Sure. I wasn't saying he'd gone out and done a survey, or anything. The question was basically "what makes you think that?" I thought that DexterBASE had already explained that, and was trying to help point that out. That said, I wouldn't expect someone attached to a Marine force to be meeting only "friendly" natives. In fact, I'd expect that a soldier on the front lines would be more likely to see the unfriendly faces, and their view might be skewed a bit toward the negative.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,031 #73 January 10, 2005 >That said, I wouldn't expect someone attached to a Marine force to >be meeting only "friendly" natives. A friend of mine just got back from Iraq after a stint as a military air traffic controller. 99% of the Iraqis he met were either Iraqi police, Iraqi military or volunteers doing office work and the like. That's a bit of a skewed sample for him; I imagine other people get similarly skewed samples (in both directions.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #74 January 10, 2005 Of course. I was just reading (perhaps too much) into DexterBASE's comment about meeting average Iraqi's while patrolling through their neighborhoods. If I saw armed foreigners patrolling my neighborhood, I'd have to feel pretty strongly positive to overcome my initial reaction and chat with them.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #75 January 10, 2005 Quote friend of mine just got back from Iraq after a stint as a military air traffic controller. 99% of the Iraqis he met were either Iraqi police, Iraqi military or volunteers doing office work and the like. That's a bit of a skewed sample for him; I imagine other people get similarly skewed samples (in both directions.) that may be true if you only look at one or two people there or a larger sample from same units or kind of units. From the groups I've heard from the Iraqi's do not see us as the enemy. Which makes sense otherwise the extremist wouldn't have to import others to fight the "cause." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
