Ron 10 #26 January 25, 2005 Quote Many millions of them need society to give them a helping hand to quit. How is it anyones fault but your own that you started smoking? How is it anyone elses job to help you quit? Why do you insist that your errors are the fault and responsibility to fix of someone else? YOU choose to start smoking. It is not anyone elses fault or responsibility...It is yours and yours alone."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #27 January 25, 2005 QuoteI agree with you position, but not your rant. While I don't smoke I do respect the rights of others to smoke...As long as they don't affect me. That means that as long as you don't make me smell your smoke, then feel free to blaze away. I do however find that it is funny that people bitch about the cost of health care in this country, but then smoke, drink, and eat junk food. I don't care if you smoke....As long as you don't make me smell it, or make me pay for your health problems cause of it. But it is not an employers place to make that call. They could deny them health insurance, but not employment based on that IMO. pretty much my position but: If an employer wants to ban smoking anywhere on their property (including parking lots) - they should get to do that. That means they can fire for cause anyone smoking in the parking lot or hanging out by the entrance, etc. If it's a bad policy, then they'll suffer by having fewer qualified people trying to work there. another: "And so far it's been pretty tough with 3 kids and only her husband's income to get by. Cara Stiffler: "We have to cut back and things are tough, but it's been tough, I'm just trying to stay positive." " She apparently decided that her addiction is much more important to her than her children (take this in a couple ways since she also smokes and has kids - even if she doesn't do it in front of the kids). Tell me that even if it's misplaced and counterproductive and will likely cause more problems than help, likely the company has good intentions with their policy. Good intentions? restrictive of freedoms? complete lack of understanding of consequences? must be democrats. The company is on shaky ground trying to get them to completely quit, though. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #28 January 25, 2005 QuoteShe apparently decided that her addiction is much more important to her than her children (take this in a couple ways since she also smokes and has kids - even if she doesn't do it in front of the kids). Bullshit. Maybe she decided the freedom to do as you wish (legaly) on your own time is something she wished to take a stand on, and defend for her childeren.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #29 January 25, 2005 QuoteBullshit. Maybe she decided the freedom to do as you wish (legaly) on your own time is something she wished to take a stand on, and defend for her childeren. Bullshit right back at ya fella. Like she is some kind of noble personage oppressed and self sacrificing because of a principle.... They needed the money, she quit before finding another job. I doubt that this policy annoucement was just 'sprung' on them in one day and she was fired that afternoon. Get another job and leave - that sends a real message (apply stupid policies and you lose good employees). Or let them fire her, then start a court case and collect unemployment while looking for a new job - that also sends a message. But don't make it easy on the idiots applying the stupid policy by quitting. that's really nuts. (BTW - I think the company really overstepped themselves and hope they get sued a lot. But it doesn't separate or release that decision from her responsibility to the kids.) edit: reread the article. she was fired, not quit. But she did have a year to take another action (quit smoking, get another job, take legal action) and didn't. I have more sympathy for her, but still not too much. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #30 January 25, 2005 A private employer can make whatever rules they want for their employees. They decided years ago not to tolerate pot smoking or cocaine or other illegal drugs and have been testing everyone ever since (which is something I hate, but they can do it). In the old days if you worked for Ford and lived in company housing, the Ford company police could come in and search your home. If they found alcohol or tobacco, you were OUT. Fired AND evicted (nice, huh ?). I'm a non-smoking, non drug using, alcohol drinking libertarian who believes people should be able to use ANYTHING, up to and including heroin, responsibly. People can smoke if they want, just not around me because it stinks and I have a right not to put up with it. It does seem harsh to me for an employer to fire someone for smoking a taxed and legal product, but they do have the right. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #31 January 25, 2005 >What's next, drinkers? Heck, there are entire TOWNS who outlaw alcohol, never mind companies. But would you really be outraged if an airline had a policy that said its pilots couldn't drink while they were on an active schedule? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #32 January 25, 2005 QuoteBut would you really be outraged if an airline had a policy that said its pilots couldn't drink while they were on an active schedule? No. But I'd think it wrong if they fired a pilot for drinking in his off duty time, provided he or she was sober while on duty.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #33 January 25, 2005 Hi QuoteTo state that is to discount the addictive properties of nicotine Again, true up to a point... Surely it's not that addictive. I kind of feel that people tend to over use this as an excuse and no one made them start up in the first place. But all that said .... it still doesn't warrant the blatant discrimination being shown by the compoany involved - No that IS out of order. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #34 January 25, 2005 >No. But I'd think it wrong if they fired a pilot for drinking in his off >duty time, provided he or she was sober while on duty. Let's say you run an airline. You have several pilots who are busted by the FAA. They were technically sober but were seen drinking in their off-duty time a few hours before flying, and there was a minor incident during the flight. You have to pay tens of thousands in fines, and pilots get their ratings suspended. One of them sues you for allowing this to happen. Do you think you should have the right to say "if you want to fly for my airline, you can't drink at all while you're on the flight schedule?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #35 January 25, 2005 QuoteLet's say you run an airline. You have several pilots who are busted by the FAA. They were technically sober but were seen drinking in their off-duty time a few hours before flying, and there was a minor incident during the flight. You have to pay tens of thousands in fines, and pilots get their ratings suspended. One of them sues you for allowing this to happen. If they were drinking prior to 8 hours before flight time they were breaking the law. QuoteDo you think you should have the right to say "if you want to fly for my airline, you can't drink at all while you're on the flight schedule?" No, but you do have the right to not allow drinking while they are at work or on standby."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #36 January 25, 2005 QuoteHow is it anyones fault but your own that you started smoking? It isn't. I didn't say it was. QuoteHow is it anyone elses job to help you quit? Ditto. QuoteWhy do you insist that your errors are the fault and responsibility to fix of someone else? Ditto. QuoteYOU choose to start smoking. It is not anyone elses fault or responsibility...It is yours and yours alone. True. Kids choose to do a whole load of things that are stupid. Most of those things don't involve legal addictive substances. I was merely pointing out that a lot of smokers need help quitting because it is very difficult. If it wasn't there would be far fewer smokers IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflight 0 #37 January 25, 2005 well, they are doing nothing new. some insurance providers will not cover you if you have poor health. it would be cheaper to make everyone quit, then to pay for their treatment for all the smoking related problems. if you exersise your premium should be a bit less then if you don't. and give it time, they will get to fast food as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #38 January 25, 2005 Quotewell, they are doing nothing new. some insurance providers will not cover you if you have poor health. it would be cheaper to make everyone quit, then to pay for their treatment for all the smoking related problems. I dont think that is the point ... the article didn't say that they would loose their insurance ... it implied thet they would loose their jobs. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflight 0 #39 January 25, 2005 yes, but with their job comes a health plan. no job, no health plan, no money lost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #40 January 25, 2005 How can you say: Quote It isn't. I didn't say it was. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How is it anyone elses job to help you quit? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ditto. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why do you insist that your errors are the fault and responsibility to fix of someone else? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ditto. When right here you said it was? QuoteMany millions of them need society to give them a helping hand to quit. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #41 January 25, 2005 QuoteHow can you say: Quote It isn't. I didn't say it was. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How is it anyone elses job to help you quit? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ditto. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why do you insist that your errors are the fault and responsibility to fix of someone else? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ditto. When right here you said it was? QuoteMany millions of them need society to give them a helping hand to quit. Someone needing a kidney donor in order to survive doesn't make it your fault that they need a kidney, nor your responsibility to give them one. Someone needing a helping hand of any sort doesn't make it your fault or your responsibility to provide it. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #42 January 25, 2005 QuoteLets be honest about this: smoking is a disgusting dangerous habit. Smokers smell really bad. In fact that is an understatement: they stink. Most smokers only do it because they are addicted and simply do not possess the willpower to quit. No, smoking is a vice, just like many others. It offers some benefits, has some consequences. Is a bit harder to shake than most vices. But it's still a choice people make. If the company is concerned about performance or sick days, fine. They can fire those that don't perform. Roll sick days into a PTO program. Mandate the number of length of breaks. (BTW, I doubt that smokers waste as much time as internet surfers do). But you and this company is presupposing that the smokers will universally be less productive. My working experience at quite a few companies indicates otherwise. Frankly, the forcing them to take the elevator downstairs and smoke 50ft from the doors has more costs then just having a smoking room. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #43 January 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteReally this is unbelievable, if someone smokes it's none of the company's damned business, I hope the lawyers leave a smouldering crater. It is if: * Smokers spend less hours immersed in their work because they are haffing ciggy breaks. * Smokers smoke is breathed by other company employees. * Smokers stink of smoke around the office. * Smokers have more days off sick each year. * Smokers hang around outside the company offices smoking like a bunch of kids. Companies are entitled to restrict smoking on premises and almost always do. Don't confuse the issue. Smokers needn't affect other employees. w.r.t. health insurance if that's your issue you can make them pay an appropriate additional premium (if that's your position). Smokers hang outside the office smoking because they're banned from smoking in the building, in fact often they must maintain a significant separation from the premises. Great you managed to quit, what would have happened if you'd been fired before you did? You can blame the tobacco companies because you were dumb enough to start smoking because you thought you'd look cool, but it's really a different issue entirely. I don't smoke and never have, it's a bloody stupid thing to start, but people shouldn't be fired for being smokers. Someone running a company should focus on their business instead of inviting financial ruin by meddling in the lives of their employees. I hope the aforementioned ruin comes hard & fast. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #44 January 25, 2005 >If the company is concerned about performance or sick days, fine. My friend and I used to work in a company with a lot of smokers. They'd take "smoking breaks" outside, generally a bunch of five-minute breaks over the course of a day. We started taking "smoking days" about once a month where we'd take a day off, given that we didn't spend an half an hour a day outside smoking. Got the smokers really mad at us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #45 January 25, 2005 QuoteThey'd take "smoking breaks" outside, generally a bunch of five-minute breaks over the course of a day. They are usually nearer 10 minutes when you add the to'ing and fro'ing to the time it takes to smoke the cigarette. Smokers at our place put in about an hour less per day, or over half a day less per week. Years ago I heard that some companies in Germany used to pay their smokers less than their non-smokers to compensate for this. I expect that's been banned by the EU now though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #46 January 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteReally this is unbelievable, if someone smokes it's none of the company's damned business, I hope the lawyers leave a smouldering crater. * Smokers have more days off sick each year. *** Do they have more sick days than those that drink? I don't drink AT ALL but I do smoke about 1/2 a pack a day. I have not had to miss work because of illness in 3 years, yet those that drink (usually too much) can't seem to make it in every day. Those that have kids miss more work than ANY other group (smokers/drinkers, etc.) I know. I do not blame anyone for my smoking but me, not the tabacco companies, not society, just me, but that does not give an employer the right to fire me because of my LEGAL habit. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #47 January 25, 2005 Years ago I heard that some companies in Germany used to pay their smokers less than their non-smokers to compensate for this. I expect that's been banned by the EU now though. What? Years ago? That's an actual issue in discussion. Same time, many companies do not tolerate any longer the "smoking breaks" of smokers. Our smokers really are facing hard times I am too bad, I do not mind, as I am a non-smoker. But another disturbing side effect: My best friends are no more coming to my home as they have to stay outside for smoking a cigarette. I cannot accept smoke in my home. So, to see them I have to visit these smoking friends. And after coming home from a nice night at smoking friends, I smell like an old Irish pub.... These are troubles, I tell you! I do not like to wash my long hair 3 times per week before entering my bed .. Tobacco really is affecting my social life. Christel dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #47 January 25, 2005 Years ago I heard that some companies in Germany used to pay their smokers less than their non-smokers to compensate for this. I expect that's been banned by the EU now though. What? Years ago? That's an actual issue in discussion. Same time, many companies do not tolerate any longer the "smoking breaks" of smokers. Our smokers really are facing hard times I am too bad, I do not mind, as I am a non-smoker. But another disturbing side effect: My best friends are no more coming to my home as they have to stay outside for smoking a cigarette. I cannot accept smoke in my home. So, to see them I have to visit these smoking friends. And after coming home from a nice night at smoking friends, I smell like an old Irish pub.... These are troubles, I tell you! I do not like to wash my long hair 3 times per week before entering my bed .. Tobacco really is affecting my social life. Christel dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #48 January 25, 2005 QuoteDo they have more sick days than those that drink? I don't know. I'm getting misquoted all over the place. Dorbie said "it's none of the company's damned business" and i responded with "It is if:" followed by my list, and everyone seems to have blind-spotted the "if". I'd guess not though. Where I work it seems to be drinkers, then parents, then lazy arses like myself that take the most time off. See I do blame the tobacco companies. They wouldn't spend over 10 billion dollars per year in the USA alone if it didn't have any effect on getting people to smoke. And now that the markets are shrinking in the developed world they are moving operations to the developing world where the markets are less regulated and people are less aware of the dangers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #49 January 25, 2005 QuoteSee I do blame the tobacco companies. I blame the people who smoke. See I could kinda understand my parents smoking (50-65) They really didn't know smoking was bad for you. I can kinda understand my sister (almost 40) There was anti smoking stuff out, but it was considered stupid, and from bad sources. I don't understand my brother 35 since he and I had the same message. Now I have no clue how some 25 and under folks can smoke....It is a proven fact that it will kill you. But I don't blame the tabacco Companies...Its not like they held a gun to anyones head. I find it disturbing that you always want to blame anyone but the person who commited the act."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #50 January 25, 2005 Quote[See I could kinda understand my parents smoking (50-65) They really didn't know smoking was bad for you. I can kinda understand my sister (almost 40) There was anti smoking stuff out, but it was considered stupid, and from bad sources. I don't, and I don't understand my old man either (78). 1st time. You smoke and it makes you cough. It's not that hard a concept, is it? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
