kelel01 1
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Ron 10
QuoteIs this thread here for you and Ron to preach to us smokers or is it about civil rights.
where have I said you should not be allowed to smoke?
I said I don't understand why people start it when they know it is bad for them.
I also don't see how a kid today can't know it is bad for them, but do it anyway.
I do however feel that you can do as you please.
However, don't expect me to pay for your smoking related health problems.
And I completly understand a company wanting to not hire smokers. I don't think that is a legal stance.
I would have no problem if a company wanted to pay smokers less for all the breaks they take (Or give non-smokers more pay of time off). I also think a company has the right to deny health care to a smoker, or charge a higher rate.
And yes, the same thing applies to skydiving. If a company does not want to cover a jumper, or wants to charge him more, that is the companies right.
You can smoke all ya like.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
jdhill 0
QuoteNow back to civil rights
I was reading my Constitution, and all the Amendments, and I could not find a right to smoke anywhere, nor did I find anything in the Civil Rights Act ('91) about smokers being a "protected" group (race, color, religion, or sex) with regard to anti-descrimination... where is the civil rights issue?
J
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke
rehmwa 2
QuoteHi,
I'm a non-smoker, but the article sited at the start of this thread has caused me to speak(write) out above in support of smokers civil rights... and that's kind of interesting when you stop and think about it because many smokers regularly ignore the civil rights of non-smokers (every day).
But when it boils down to it... I'll still support your civil right not to be sacked from you job simply because you smoke in your own time even though my right to breath clean air will still be abused daily..
So is it the rights that we support not the isuues. ... is that weird?
I can't put it any better than this.
For Judy - The "why start" is a different conversation about who is really responsible for the costs of the habit to an individual, their family, their workplace, etc. I agree it's a side topic and won't go further.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Civil Rights include equal protection of the laws and freedom from discrimination.
They are discriminating against people who smoke.
We might just as well live in Cuba.
I hope they go after the drinkers - I can't stand being around drunk people. They smell, they can't speak correctly, they fall down, slobber, break stuff and make messes, not to mention all the work they miss cause they are hungover. But that's another debate.
Judy
They are discriminating against people who smoke.
We might just as well live in Cuba.
I hope they go after the drinkers - I can't stand being around drunk people. They smell, they can't speak correctly, they fall down, slobber, break stuff and make messes, not to mention all the work they miss cause they are hungover. But that's another debate.
Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.
QuoteI was reading my Constitution, and all the Amendments, and I could not find a right to smoke anywhere, nor did I find anything in the Civil Rights Act ('91) about smokers being a "protected" group (race, color, religion, or sex) with regard to anti-descrimination... where is the civil rights issue?
It would fall under the "inherent" right to privacy. It does not have to be spelled out in the constitution to exist.
jdhill 0
QuoteCivil Rights include equal protection of the laws and freedom from discrimination.
The equal protection clause of the CRA only applies to race, color, sex, age, national origin, or disability (by the ADA)... it does not protect smokers.
The company, under current law, is within its rights to hire and fire whomever they wish so long as their firing is not due to being a member of a protected group (see above). The company gave the employees two years to quit smoking (with company sponsored assistance) or find another job... Perhaps smoking is a personal liberty, but that does not mean I have to employ you... if you want to work for me, follow my terms of employment.
In many companies, if someone comes to work with even trace ammounts of alcohol in their system, they could be fired.
If my company told me to quite jumping, or be fired, I'd have to make a choice... quit jumping or find a new job... as much as we would like it to be, jumping is not a right in a constitutional sence, and neither is smoking.
J
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke
jdhill 0
QuoteIt would fall under the "inherent" right to privacy. It does not have to be spelled out in the constitution to exist.
But the consitution applies to the government, not to private companies... many companies dictate behavoir while off the clock, as a condition of employment... you want a job, follow the employer's rules.
Take for example, a DZ that says staff cannot date students, on or off the DZ... date one (and get caught
) and you're fired... Does a DZ have the right to say that? I say they do... and I don't see a real difference in that and smoking.
J
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke
rehmwa 2
QuoteWe might just as well live in Cuba.
Now we are talking about cigar smoking?
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
billvon 2,991
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>Would it be fair for me to be fired, based on that?
Wasn't talking about being fired, I was talking about time off. If you don't take any additional time off it's not an issue.
Wasn't talking about being fired, I was talking about time off. If you don't take any additional time off it's not an issue.
billvon 2,991
>Prove it - that their wastage is in ADDITION.
I worked there and saw it. It's not rocket science - if you take more breaks a day but start and end at the same time you are at the workstation less than someone who doesn't take breaks. That's just math.
I worked there and saw it. It's not rocket science - if you take more breaks a day but start and end at the same time you are at the workstation less than someone who doesn't take breaks. That's just math.
QuoteQuoteWe might just as well live in Cuba.
Now we are talking about cigar smoking?
No, just the rights belonging to an individual by virtue of citizenship including civil liberties, due process, equal protection of the laws, and freedom from discrimination.
Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.
rehmwa 2
QuoteNo, just the rights belonging to an individual by virtue of citizenship including civil liberties, due process, equal protection of the laws, and freedom from discrimination.
That's quite a serious and heavy load.
I thought we were talking about a specific company making a poor choice in policy. And that they are likely wrong and will end up paying for it one way or another in either court cases or staffing issues. But if we are getting all philosophical about it.....
1 - Civil liberties - apply provided one's CLs don't infringe on another's CLs. Smoking can be argued here from both sides. We are loose with what we call CLs in this society, but, a non-smoker could easily argue that 2nd hand smoke is a violation of CLs. I think a CL argument for or against smoking is an abuse of the argument. But if used, it's a stalemate at best.
2 - Due Process - applies to crime, not a company's policy (firing is a staffing action, not a punishment for a crime - smoking is not a crime). But the term can used in analogies well in this case. But even then, it's an exageration at best.
3 - The equal protection clause is very specific in its definition, though, but certainly you can use that as an analogy but not a legal discussion. Also an exageration of a pissy issue.
4 - Discrimination - this fits, but smoking (a voluntary action) is pretty petty when you consider the discrimination that occurs relative to race (including AA) and gender (both of which are not voluntary). But you could make an analogy to religious discrimination as another voluntary activity.
Company's can hire and fire for any reason. Best way to handle it is to be in an "at will" employment contract thus they would give no reason at all. Saves all the complaining. They made the mistake of announcing why they fired, (set aside the 2 year warning and support they offered) rather than just make the RIF and not provide justification.
They'll get burned pretty bad likely. Unless they're in California
, then they'll likely get a government grant....
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
jdhill 0
Quotecivil liberties
No one is saying you can't smoke, but non one says I have to employ you, and bare the burdern of your health care, either.
Quotedue process
1) Due process applies to the government... 2)The employees were told two years ago of the policy change... there was ample opportunity for them to change their behavior, or seek other employment.
Quoteequal protection of the laws
There is no Michigan or Federal law that governs a company from establishing and enforcing this employment policy.
Quotefreedom from discrimination
The legal definition of discrimination encompasses things that people have no control over (race, color, sex, age, yada, yada, yada)... you can decide to smoke or not to smoke.
Its just another condition of employment... you can either accept it and work there, or not accept it and work somewhere that allows smokers.
J
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke
Rehmwa - all I gave you was the definition of Civil Rights as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary.
If you want to make this into a bigger issue, that's fine. I don't work for that company, nor ever will.
And some people could debate whether or not gender is a voluntary issue. Ever heard of a sex change?
Judy
If you want to make this into a bigger issue, that's fine. I don't work for that company, nor ever will.
And some people could debate whether or not gender is a voluntary issue. Ever heard of a sex change?
Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.
If you want the government in your house, in your face, in your bedroom, in your car, that is your privlege in this wonderful country, as is my right to smoke at my house (I don't smoke inside), on my land that I pay for and taxes on.
What if one of these employees gets a ride to work from their spouse that smokes. Their clothes will probably smell of smoke and now its up to the employee to HAVE to prove its not them. What a great country Guilty til proven Innocent.
Judy
What if one of these employees gets a ride to work from their spouse that smokes. Their clothes will probably smell of smoke and now its up to the employee to HAVE to prove its not them. What a great country Guilty til proven Innocent.
Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.
jdhill 0
QuoteIf you want the government in your house, in your face, in your bedroom, in your car, that is your privlege in this wonderful country, as is my right to smoke at my house (I don't smoke inside), on my land that I pay for and taxes on.
This is NOT a governmental action... it is a private company that the individuals involved can either choose to work for, or not.
If someone whose spouce smoked worked there, they should understand the risk that their spouce is imposing on them.
J
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke
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