England: Worst Crime Rate in World

[JohnRich 4]

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(as to your idea for restricting bb guns, well, I don't see the real threat in one...

England is already going crazy about air guns too. In the news:

"A MAN serving a five-year jail term after police found a powerful air pistol at his home will launch a test case in a bid for freedom before Easter... (he) argued the new law relating to these kind of weapons had not been well-advertised by the Government, leaving Gilead entirely ignorant of the offence he was committing."

Source: icSouthLondon

Imagine: 5-years in prison for a BB gun!

[JohnRich 4]

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The UK is clearly safer with a gun ban based on my experience living in both countries for several years.

Then how do you explain how gun crime has gone up since handguns and semi-auto long guns were banned? (See attached chart) The statistics contradict your theory...

[bigway 4]

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Then how do you explain how gun crime has gone up since handguns and semi-auto long guns were banned? (See attached chart) The statistics contradict your theory

because owning a gun is now a crime. Maybe that is why it has gone up.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[kelpdiver 2]

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Growing up in a rough inner city in England, it was inconceivable to me and my peers that we would ever be shot, or encounter any situation with a gun. Stabbed or "glassed" with a broken glass? - sure. Shot? - not in a million years. In England, you can go out at night and you are very, VERY unlikely to be killed in a fight, robbery, whatever. I don't have any particular statistics to back that up, it's just a feeling that I think most people in England and the UK feel - ask people who've lived in both places.

In the US, that feeling just doesn't exist. And if that feeling *didn't* exist, then people wouldn't carry guns for self defense.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the primary message here, but I don't have any great fears of getting shot roaming around even the not so good neighborhoods of San Francisco and Oakland. The people getting killed are by and large criminals themselves.

BTW, England is said to have *far* more than 500k guns in criminal circulation. I also think you underestimate the deadliness of knife attacks.

[KidWicked 0]

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The UK is clearly safer with a gun ban based on my experience living in both countries for several years.

Then how do you explain how gun crime has gone up since handguns and semi-auto long guns were banned? (See attached chart) The statistics contradict your theory...

You've got a chart with a line that goes up on it; I've lived in both countries. Why don't we both just get 'em out and measure them?

Just so I'm clear though: you're saying that if gun laws in the UK were removed, citizens of the UK would have *less* chance of getting shot?

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[KidWicked 0]

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Then how do you explain how gun crime has gone up since handguns and semi-auto long guns were banned? (See attached chart) The statistics contradict your theory

because owning a gun is now a crime. Maybe that is why it has gone up.

Very good point.

Also I think that, in general, there will always be an upward trend in gun violence. Seeing the curve on that graph pointing upwards is really no surprise. If a more efficient way of killing people was invented, even if the use of it was made illegal, there are people who would spend the time and money to circumvent the law and obtain it.

This is very similar to my own field: computer security. Computer security is about making the security sufficiently good such that most attackers can't break it. There will always be hackers who can break it, but protecting against those people is extremely expensive, and so you make a trade-off. Same with guns: banning them reduces the amount in circulation, and makes them become rare, and thus they become expensive for the average criminal to obtain (like precious metals in the traditional economy, for example).

Given that fact, the important metric then becomes the *rate* at which the trend goes up. The chart showing "gun incidents increasing since the gun ban" really is no surprise. Gun incidents were hardly likely to suddenly drop to zero - because there are already a certain amount of guns in circulation. But my feeling is that the ban has kept that rate from rising faster than it has.

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[mikkey 0]

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The UK is clearly safer with a gun ban based on my experience living in both countries for several years.

Then how do you explain how gun crime has gone up since handguns and semi-auto long guns were banned? (See attached chart) The statistics contradict your theory...

Are you now starting again? Isn't it enough that it has been proven that your assumptions do not hold water.

Are you not capable of reading? I explained in DETAIL what was wrong with your "chart" (e.g. the inclusion of replica guns, the definition of "gun crime", the increases due to changed collection methods etc. etc.) and you still make those stupid claims. And you still ignore the updated numbers as per 2004 which show that the chances of being a victim of crime is at a 23 year low.

So you don't listen when people explain the stats to you - you don't listen when people who have lived / live in the UK give you first hand information - no you just carry on and on. What is wrong with you????

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[slug 1]

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The UK is clearly safer with a gun ban based on my experience living in both countries for several years.

Then how do you explain how gun crime has gone up since handguns and semi-auto long guns were banned? (See attached chart) The statistics contradict your theory...

Are you now starting again? Isn't it enough that it has been proven that your assumptions do not hold water.

Are you not capable of reading? I explained in DETAIL what was wrong with your "chart" (e.g. the inclusion of replica guns, the definition of "gun crime", the increases due to changed collection methods etc. etc.) and you still make those stupid claims. And you still ignore the updated numbers as per 2004 which show that the chances of being a victim of crime is at a 23 year low.

So you don't listen when people explain the stats to you - you don't listen when people who have lived / live in the UK give you first hand information - no you just carry on and on. What is wrong with you????

Mikkey

Your responding to a cut copy and paste without a referee to declare a winner, and you expect JR who started the thread to tell you why a blind man can't see

BTW IMO people in the US don't carry guns to protect themselves from gun violence or any other type, but just because they can and they want to its a power trip.

A private citizen discharging his weapon or gun in response to a crime is the last thing a responsiable person wants to do.

R.I.P.

[justinb138 0]

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BTW IMO people in the US don't carry guns to protect themselves from gun violence or any other type, but just because they can and they want to its a power trip.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if your's is wrong.

[slug 1]

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BTW IMO people in the US don't carry guns to protect themselves from gun violence or any other type, but just because they can and they want to its a power trip.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if your's is wrong.

Affirmative

R.i.P.

[kelpdiver 2]

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BTW IMO people in the US don't carry guns to protect themselves from gun violence or any other type, but just because they can and they want to its a power trip.

Can't it be all of the above?

[mnealtx 0]

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BTW IMO people in the US don't carry guns to protect themselves from gun violence or any other type, but just because they can and they want to its a power trip.

A private citizen discharging his weapon or gun in response to a crime is the last thing a responsiable person wants to do.

R.I.P.

Your opinion is incorrect for the large majority of gun owners.

Every person has the right to defend themself from harm, regardless of the method used for defense

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[slug 1]

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BTW IMO people in the US don't carry guns to protect themselves from gun violence or any other type, but just because they can and they want to its a power trip.

A private citizen discharging his weapon or gun in response to a crime is the last thing a responsiable person wants to do.

BTW remember the army movie about "this is my weapon this is my gun this for war and this is for fun"

R.I.P.

Your opinion is incorrect for the large majority of gun owners.

Every person has the right to defend themself from harm, regardless of the method used for defense

Affirmative but there's the law thing about reasonable force vs threat.

Thats why people who carry can't just whip it out and blast away because some dude is bitch slapping them. Or is fleeing with your car that they just stole from in front of your house. (texas blast them)

I'm sure reasonable force has been discussed in SC before more than once or ten times at least

R.i.P.

[crozby 0]

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BTW, England is said to have *far* more than 500k guns in criminal circulation. I also think you underestimate the deadliness of knife attacks.

I don't believe that statistic for one second. Where have you got it from, and what sort of guns is it referring to?

[kelpdiver 2]

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BTW, England is said to have *far* more than 500k guns in criminal circulation. I also think you underestimate the deadliness of knife attacks.

I don't believe that statistic for one second. Where have you got it from, and what sort of guns is it referring to?

This is a second hand link from the Sundays Times, which I believe is considered a respectable paper.
So many gun lovers jumped on it that it's hard to find the original anymore, but this one quotes the entire article.
http://ron.dotson.net/guns/UK/3mIllegalGuns.htm

You can confirm the the article's existence on the TimesOnline site - dated Jan 16, 2000, but you need to be a subscriber to actually pull it out of archives.

Also note this story is from 4 years ago. I doubt it's gotten much better since then. Of course, it could be the British equilivent of Kellerman bullshit. Feel free to provide the opposing research if you can.

[mikkey 0]

Difficult to ascertain how many there are. What we do know is that "only" about 70 or so people got murdered by firearms in the UK last year which is one of the lowest rates per capita in the world and it was a drop of 15% in comparison to the year before. Only in about 0.14% of all crimes firearms (excl. air guns) were used. Here is a good link about the latest crime stats:
www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hosb1404.pdf

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Newbie 0]

Interesting stuff and i think you're right. More guns = more weapons = more likely to fall into the hands of nutcases who would use them on each other without a seconds thought.
I have lived in the US on and off for only 2 or so years (back in the early 2000's) but my feeling was the same. I remember coming back from downtown San Francisco one day from a bike ride i had been on to explore, putting the tv on and seeing an hour earlier (i.e. almost around the same time i was in the area) there had been a police chase with an armed robber and his accomplice, who had been firing out of the window at the cops as they careered through the streets i had been in moments earlier.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[mr2mk1g 10]

Estimates range from 200,000 to a couple of million. Fact is no one knows and estimates have very little info to go on.

Not that it's terribly relevant of course, as the 1997 legislation had very little to do with taking illegally held firearms off the streets.

[Jimbo 0]

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or gun in response to a crime is the last thing a responsiable person wants to do.

Of the concealed carry holders --I-- know, that's the last thing they want to do, also. My guess is that the majority of those with a carry permit feel the same.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[justinb138 0]

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or gun in response to a crime is the last thing a responsiable person wants to do.

Of the concealed carry holders --I-- know, that's the last thing they want to do, also. My guess is that the majority of those with a carry permit feel the same.

-
Jim

I don't yet have a CHL, but I'm thinking about getting one. My mentality about the whole thing is "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." I would assume most people (that have a permit at least) see it the same way.

[slug 1]

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or gun in response to a crime is the last thing a responsiable person wants to do.

Of the concealed carry holders --I-- know, that's the last thing they want to do, also. My guess is that the majority of those with a carry permit feel the same.

-
Jim

I don't yet have a CHL, but I'm thinking about getting one. My mentality about the whole thing is "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." I would assume most people (that have a permit at least) see it the same way.

Hi Jim

We had a CWP just because we could but never carried, so when it was time for CWP renewal we let it expire saved $50/3 yr's.

OTOH last month the chief of police's car was broken into and some slime ball stole the Chiefs work gun from his unmarked car.

Do you really want to go someplace where you think you might need a gun, or lock the gun in you car when you don't need it and have some slime ball steal it.

BTW the COP of seattle hasn't got his gun back yet

R.I.P.

R.I.P.

[christelsabine 1]

-
Jim

[justinb138 0]

Concealed Handgun License, and I'm guessing Concealed Weapon Permit.

There's a ton of acronyms for it, but pretty much the same thing.

[Kennedy 0]

Some people are ok with getting stabbed or glassed, I suppose.

Personally, I don't carry a gun because I expect to get shot. Actually, I expect to have a very uneventful day, no knives, no guns, everybody goes home at night. However, if inescapably confronted by a violent criminal, I will not put myself at the tender mercy of his good nature.

I'm surprised to hear people say they think citizens here in the US carry only to protect themselves from guns. That's just not the case.

The overriding idea behind getting a CCW permit, for myself and most others, is quite simply that "I'd rather have it and not need it that need it and not have it."


ps - it's funny (scary, but funny), but the only place I'm ever really concerned about a violent confrontation is when I go to NYC and need to walk the border of Bed-Stuy. It's a scary kind of funny because that's the only place I go that wouldn't even let me own a gun, let alone carry one.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[JohnRich 4]

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Then how do you explain how gun crime has gone up since handguns and semi-auto long guns were banned? (See attached chart) The statistics contradict your theory

because owning a gun is now a crime. Maybe that is why it has gone up.

Maybe? Can you show that all this increased gun crime is due to simple illegal possession charges?