Does the USPA membership and officers need to step up to preserve the safety of the membership and vitality of the sport?

[tphilpin 0]

Re: [MakeItHappen] Fatality - Eloy - 31 December 2006 [In reply to] Edit | Delete | Quote | Reply

What I think, some people are failing to realize is that what Tom did was TOTALLY PREVENTABLE AND HAS BEEN THAT WAY FOR MANY YEARS and THAT is why I am so angry about this incident.

Segregated/ separate landing areas for swoopers and non-swoopers have been in existence for many years, especially at the larger DZs, such as Eloy, Perris, Elsinore, Crosskeys, Skydive Chicago.

Someone tries to put the 'oh-you have your own area to land in, type landing into the this is our landing area' causes an accident.

Friends of the deceased try to explain away the incident, by saying he did that time and time again at home without a problem. That is true, but Eloy was NOT his home DZ. He had not jumped there for a year (or more). And this was at a boogie too!

People try to explain away this incident by saying swooping is here to stay and will not go away. Swooping is a National event on the USPA calendar. I know it is here to stay. I also know that the swoops are done in cleared airspace, NOT in a congested boogie airspace.

There is a time and place for swoops. Boogies are not the time or place for 270s or other such radical swoops.
As one friend of mine says '270s are a big dick maneuver, nothing more, nothing less'.

.

How many USPA members need to die or have close calls before the USPA members and officers will act to protect their members from others and themselves?

When might USPA members and officers require group member DZs to establish remote designated landing areas for swoopers, at least during boogies or big way events and enforce their use?

When might USPA members and officers require and empower a safety officer to protect the lives of its members at boogies and other events?

When might the USPA members and officers hold members responsible for unsafe behavior that is unhealthy for its membership and the sport"?

Canopy collisions, and hook turn accidents are on the rise. The USPA takes DZ reports on those accidents resulting in death. Neither the members or USPA officers have any idea how many are actually injured, or had close calls in order to make an informed decisions about accepting the risk or policing the sport.

Does anybody else think more needs to be done to preserve the lives and limbs of the membership and skydiving as a sport?

If people are making bad decisions, than the freedom to make those bad decisions needs to further restricted or eliminated for the good of all. At one time opening altitude was a personal decision, and that only affected the decision maker.

As a fixed wing pilot I have standards and procedures during phases of flight that must be followed or I risk losing my right to fly. FAA officials attend and make their presence known at air shows and fly-in events, supervising operations. The FAA will also create special procedures and publish them for special events. Pilots file reports of near misses for scrutiny of operations. NASA has a confidential reporting system to report personal safety lapses without consequences to the reporter. The FAA's primary mission is public safety while considering efficiency.

Seems as though the FAA cares more about me than the USPA, a "membership" organization.


(Replies to this post belong in another forum, although the contemplation of the ideas applies here.)

[davelepka 4]

Have you done a search on this topic? This had all been covered ad-nauseum.

The USPA needs to get their collective heads out of their asses and recognize that the trend for open canopy incidents representing the majority of incidents and fatalities has continued and will continue to rear it's ugly head until the issue is addressed.

Education and emphasis are the key factors here. Teach jumpers more about thier canopies. Give them the information they need to use their canopies to their fullest potential and to make sound decisions from exit to landing.

The eductation will in turn lead to the emphasis. By having the governeing body place importance and training in the area of canopy piloting it demonstrates the importance of always striving to imporve your canopy piloting skills. The current state of required training has canopy piloting about as important as spotting (which we all know is a skill that has been allowed by GPS ot fall by the wayside).

A poster and a DVD does not cut it. The BOD knows the problem exists, and several of them know that it really does need a great deal of attention (I have personally spoken to them about this) however the meeting s come and go, and issue is either swept aside alltogether, or given a cursory glance, and is never the focal point of any real action.

Will this stop collisions? Who knows, but I can't help but think that the more info everyone has, the more organized patterns will be, and the more predictable pilots will be.

This last incident in Eloy, with the near miss, looks to be a prime example. If I read correctly, the jumper who was almost hit had just completed a right turn onto final. At my home DZ, and other I've been to, there is a left hand landing pattern. Is the pattern at Eloy a right hand pattern? Is their a dedicated pattern at all?

A simple thing like a universal pattern direction at all USPA DZ's with sinage to support this, and maybe a mention everytime an experienced jumper signs a waiver for the first time would be a good start.

In all reality though, don't expect much from the USPA except for ever increasing dues, a pretty new building and some swell keychains and polo shirts that apparently make great gifts.

[grue 1]

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Is the pattern at Eloy a right hand pattern? Is their a dedicated pattern at all?

A simple thing like a universal pattern direction at all USPA DZ's with sinage to support this, and maybe a mention everytime an experienced jumper signs a waiver for the first time would be a good start.

The pattern at Eloy depends on where you are landing, but it is clearly indicated in the briefing, or at least was for me.

That having been said, you can't really expect to dictate a certain pattern as a blanket for all DZs, because such a thing might not work for all DZs for one reason or another.

My DZ back in the US, if you're landing in a certain area and crops are high, you can't execute a left-hand pattern if you want to land to the south, because your base leg would take you right over the runway.

Well, I guess you could if your base leg was about 60 metres wide and the pattern was adjusted for that

Veeeeeeery long landing area, but not so wide.

cavete terrae.

[rehmwa 2]

Dave - this is all very important, but can you direct me to those swell USPA keychains?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[davelepka 4]

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Dave - this is all very important, but can you direct me to those swell USPA keychains?

Yet another failure of the USPA. How are you supposed to buy promotional branded products if you can't even find them?

Skydivers everywhere are losing keys left and right, and the USPA doesn't seem to care.

[davelepka 4]

I've always thought of patterns as being easily adjustable. Stretch out one leg, or tighten up the other to make it fit. Unusually shaped landign areas often times present problems with pattern use, not overflying hazzards, and lading in an area with clean air.

None of these problems are deal breakers, and a properly eductated jumper can overcome them, and create a flight plan with a solution that adheres to the field pattern, and provied a safe flight path for themselves.

Did ya catch where I said, 'Properly educated'?

That education needs to include visiting jumpers as well. Mayeb orientation to a new DZ needs to include a briefing on field procedures.

Pilots have charts for the airports they are going to. These include runway diagrams, radio frequencies, and other specifics to that airport. These are all written in a standard format with universal abbreviations so all pilots appraoching the field have the same info.

Did you catch where I said, "Standard" closely followed by, "Universal"?

I never said it would be easy, like my grandpa used to say, nothing worthwhile ever is.

[kkeenan 14]

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... you can't really expect to dictate a certain pattern as a blanket for all DZs ...

This is true. Each DZ has physical constraints that govern the pattern. However, the landing pattern for that DZ should be known by all jumping there and needs to be enforced to locals and visitors alike.

Also true that this has become the No. 1 problem in skydiving and is not likely to change. Skydiving has always been about freedom to do your own thing. But now that HP landings have become a form of self-expression, it is affecting everyone. I hope that some of the leaders of the HP swooping community can get together and offer some ideas to work this out. Canopies are not going to get slower and people are not going to become less ballsy.

Swoopers have been burning in pretty regularly for a few years, now. This is sad, but most swoopers know the score. As with BASE, they accept the risks and make their decisions. However, now that the incidence of swoopers endangering other jumpers is on the rise, changes have to be made.

Kevin

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[davelepka 4]

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Swoopers have been burning in pretty regularly for a few years, now. This is sad, but most swoopers know the score. As with BASE, they accept the risks and make their decisions. However, now that the incidence of swoopers endangering other jumpers is on the rise, changes have to be made.

Knowing the score or not isn't a factor here. we're all jumping out of airplanes, and if you don't understand that you may not come back from your next jump, then you need to get a reality check, and move forward with a new understanding (not you personally).

BASE is a little different. In the US, it's still an outlaw sport. Concessions are made to allow access to objects like jumping after dark, breaking and entering, and jumping in less than ideal conditions. All of these factors are detrimental to maintaining safety (relax BASE guys, I know you do what you can).

We have a more controlled enviornment when we skydive, which could afford us a safer situation.

I'm not suggesting a ban on anything, or a removal of freedoms. It's just about having a system in place that allows for the personal expression for all involved.

Freeflying is a fine comparison. Near collisions between freeflyers and rw guys from different groups used to be a problem. Different airspeeds, and different rates of freefall drift were the culprits.

In the beginning, freeflyers got out first because they would fall faster. Made sense at the time. Know we know that the effects of freefall drift dictate the faster faller gets out after the slower groups.

Problem solved, with everyone still doing their own thing in freefall.

Swooping is a new deal. We can't expect it to fit into the system created for the old deal. I'm sure we can adapt and overcome, and find solutions to the problems. All we need is a body to help govern us and move in the right direction.

[skybytch 273]

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However, now that the incidence of swoopers endangering other jumpers is on the rise, changes have to be made.

It's not just swoopers doing the endangering. It's been stated that the surviving jumper in the incident on the 30th did a 180 toggle turn to final just prior to impact.

If jumpers who are not swoopers fly a traditional downwind/base/final pattern they are predictable. Being predictable in the pattern makes you less likely to find yourself in the path of a swooping canopy, and it allows those who are swooping to tell if you will enter "their" airspace or not. Requiring non-swoopers to fly that traditional pattern instead of doing 180's to final, doing big S turns on final and/or sprialing down to 500 feet and entering final after the last spiral (all things that I've seen done very recently) could very well save lives.

Perhaps if USPA had produced a DVD that actually taught us something instead of being a 30 minute commercial for canopy control courses... Education, not regulation - that's the USPA line. So when are they going to start educating??

Seems obvious to me that education from USPA will not come until the membership demands it. How many more friends are you willing to lose before you stand up and tell them (note - posting on dz.com does not constitute standing up and telling them...)?

[kkeenan 14]

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... Swooping is a new deal. We can't expect it to fit into the system created for the old deal. I'm sure we can adapt and overcome, and find solutions to the problems. All we need is a body to help govern us and move in the right direction...

Well said. We know (or should) how this sort of thing plays out - either we figure it out ourselves, or some sort of Big Brother USPA or FAA) will step in, usually with some heavy-handed solution that pisses everyone off.

Hopefully, the solution will come from some of the Major Dudes of the swooping world and thus, be ideas that the junior swoopers will respect.

Kevin

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[bofh 0]

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A simple thing like a universal pattern direction at all USPA DZ's with sinage to support this, and maybe a mention everytime an experienced jumper signs a waiver for the first time would be a good start.

Depending on the layout of the dropzone, a left hand pattern might not always be safe.

My home DZ has a very long and narrow landing zone next to the runway. With a left turn pattern and some winds we have to fly over the runway before the final turn. Since we are not that busy, we let the plane make a go around, but if we were more busy we would restrict flying over the runway and having a right hand pattern instead.

[tphilpin 0]

Education???? The majority of people who are killing themselves and others are not ignorant of how to fly a pattern or control their canopy. The people are making bad decisions or exceeding "reasonable" boundaries.

Bad decisions can be eliminated through the use of restrictive procedures. Procedures and boundaries are only effective if enforced.

[rehmwa 2]

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In the beginning, freeflyers got out first because they would fall faster. Made sense at the time. Know we know that the effects of freefall drift dictate the faster faller gets out after the slower groups.

We still fight that on a regular basis. Unlike freeflying, I'd like to see swoopers be proactive and lobby their own DZOs for a separate landing area. But fat chance they'll want to give up the shorter walk to the packing area.... (I know a few that would gladly do just this for both the safety and the bonus of a clear landing zone, but they are the exception). The above analogy fits as we still have freeflyers that want out first because of selfish reasons like a spot choice, etc. (I can give similar analogies to RW, etc for those FFs that will get their panties in a wad on this comment - the point is all skydivers are alike in this regard.)

And, this will continue as most DZOs are also jumpers and will make policy in accordance with their own personal opinions. Very experienced jumpers of all stripes will sacrifice that safety for the convenience of a good spot or a short walk...

On the plus side, for those DZs that REALLY understand freefall drift and exit order, the right thing is happening without USPA involvement on a DZ by DZ basis. One can hope that it will also be analogous for swooping (per Daves post).

I don't think USPA can solve this directly. But they can help by actively putting out guidance that DZOs have to at least be aware of while making their own choices until it becomes obvious (like it is only just lately becoming for exit order).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skybytch 273]

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Bad decisions can be eliminated through the use of restrictive procedures. Procedures and boundaries are only effective if enforced.

Regulation will only affect those who respect rules.

You can't legislate against people making mistakes. You can't legislate against people making bad decisions. Look at drunk driving statistics; we all know we shouldn't drive after a few beers but hell, we made it home safe the last time we did it. The same applies to canopy flight.

That said, I do support some regulation and I have for some time. Required canopy control education beyond the A license level will save lives - and I'm not targeting only new jumpers with this; every skydiver needs continuing education on canopy control. Limits on the size and type of canopy that new (and even uncurrent experienced - like myself) jumpers can fly will save lives, or at a minimum, save some titanium.

It's sad when an experienced person dies swooping but I can accept that they aren't infallible no matter how good they are, and it's likely that they knew the risks they were taking by swooping. It's beyond sad when someone dies because another person has stopped learning and continues to fly their canopy like it's 1993.

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

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It's beyond sad when someone dies because another person has stopped learning and continues to fly their canopy like it's 1993.

Ummm... Bytch... what do you mean by that?

[skybytch 273]

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what do you mean by that?

180 toggle turns to final, sashaying on final and spiraling down to pattern altitude were all cool at the dz I jumped at in 1993.

It's not 1993 anymore. For good or bad, skydiving has changed. Even those of us who don't swoop need to keep learning, if only to keep ourselves safe in crowded airspace. One of the things we need to learn is that the only way to land in crowded airspace is to fly a predictable traditional pattern.

I know far too many jumpers with numbers like mine who stopped learning back in the early '90's. Until a couple of years ago, I was one of them. It's only luck that kept me from being part of an incident report...

edit to add - I am not saying that the incident on the 30th was the fault of the surviving jumper. I am speculating based on secondhand information that was posted by an eyewitness. I am saying that I could very well have done exactly what the secondhand information says the surviving jumper did if I hadn't made an effort to learn more about canopy control.

We shouldn't have to make an effort to learn more about survival skills...

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Bytch... Not sure what DZ you were jumping at in 93, but in 93/94 when I started, sashaing on final or spiraling down in the pattern would get you a talkin' to at the DZ I started at and still will.

And... thanks for the explanation. I didn't want to jump to the conclusion that you were saying that folks that don't do high performance landings and do prefer to do straight in approaches on final while jumping a canopy that isn't much loaded over 1:1 were soooo 90's.

[stratostar 5]

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It's not just swoopers doing the endangering. It's been stated that the surviving jumper in the incident on the 30th did a 180 toggle turn to final just prior to impact.

This is any smarter then someone doing a 270 in traffic, how? Yet I keep seeing hotrod pilot's saying and posting their canopies come down so much faster as if to say the low canopy has the right of way is no longer valid. I wasn't there, didn't see it, could it be this 180 was done to avoid another hotshot,? I doubt it, but maybe.

I see more hotrod pilots flying unpredictable patterns in order to do their "look at me joe cool swoop set up's" with no regard for others airspace rights and often backed up with the claim their canopy comes down much faster then those "big old boats", so now days if you jump anything over 100 sq ft your a minority and "in the way". In anothers posting it was claimed the "real pilots" wouldn't do such things as to endanger someone else, yet one of those names posted I personally watched swoop over the spectator area at a boogie and kick off the hat of an old man, yet he didn't get grounded because he was one if the "cool kids" we have today showboating around and all the swoopers thought it was cool. When will we start to see people using some common cense and less time spent on looking cool?

It used to be you would get cut off 90% of the time by a rookie, in the last 10 years it has changed 100% the other way around to now 90% of the people doing the cutting off are flying pocket rockets and doing some crazy ass turn to swoop. We tried to solve to problem @ SWC by mandating a swoop only LZ, the problem was none of them would follow the rule and cried about it was to far to walk back, IMHO it was really because the LZ was to far away for them to look cool and put on a show for the staff, students and the wuffo's who come to watch their friends jump. At least now we have less of them deal with (@ SWC) due to their own stupid actions or they have moved on to hotshot else where in someone else's playground.

In the last 5 years I have been cutoff more times by super swoopers then any of the others, even those doing a right hand in a left pattern. With so many hotshots in the air these days I feel much safer doing working jumps then fun jumps, at least I'm out last, deepest on the spot and can pull higher and often can be one of the last to land and avoid the idiots. I think more people need to come to the understanding that they don't need to swoop on every jump and try to land in the main LZ if their going too, but that wouldn't be in fashion these days.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[skybytch 273]

Pointing fingers at those who fly their canopies differently than we do is not going to solve the problem. We are all part of the problem, regardless of what canopy we fly and how we fly it.

If we don't want to lose more friends to canopy collisions or collision avoidance, it's up to all of us to come together and figure out how we can share the air safely. The solution may mean that some of us will have to walk a bit further to get back to the packing area. I'm okay with that... I'd rather parahike than meet a paramedic...

[davelepka 4]

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I think more people need to come to the understanding that they don't need to swoop on every jump and try to land in the main LZ if their going too, but that wouldn't be in fashion these days.

More of the problem is the swoopers who don't fully understand the concept of traffic management, back up plans, and sound desicion making.

It's possible to swoop into a regular LZ with an otter full of jumpers around provided you're willing to do the work. Counting canopies, and sequencing yourself into traffic, having and being open to using a back up plan (or two) are essential.

The real problem I think comes back to education. Just because I can swoop into the main LZ at my home DZ with an otter full of jumpers I know doesn't mean that other are equipped to do so.

The problem comes from the observer who sees what I am doing, and without understanding what's behind it, takes it at face value, and assumes that it's oK for him as well. This is where the educational side of it would help.

For example, I'm sure that very few pilots will watch Sean Tucker do his arishow routine, and then attempt to replicate it in a 152 Aerobat or a Citabria. The reason is that pilots are educated to the hilt during their training, and they have enough of an understanding of the differences between an aileron roll or two, and the full on blender-on-overdirve bit that you see at the airshow.

Without the knowledge base to correctly understand what I'm doing, and what's involved, I have unwittingly become a bad role model.

There are two choices as remedies. I can stop what I'm doing, and maybe take away the inspiration for the ensuing hazzardous situation.

The other choice is to educate the up and comers, and let them understand the full scope of whats happening. Let them know that when I learned to swwop, I needed to turn over the center of the LZ becasue I was never sure of where I would end up. Make sure they see that you need to be at a point where the swoop is second nature, and the traffic mangement can be your primary activity.

I, of course, vote for option two. Part of it is because I don't want to change what I'm doig, sure, but the bigger part is that option two has extensive education attached to it. This will only lead to smarter and better swoopers who can go on to create even more smart swoopers, and set a better example than I am.

[billvon 2,990]

>It's possible to swoop into a regular LZ with an otter full of jumpers
>around provided you're willing to do the work. Counting canopies,
> and sequencing yourself into traffic, having and being open to using
> a back up plan (or two) are essential.

I think the incidents this weekend indicate otherwise. Per witnesses, in both cases the airspace near the landing area was clear except for one other jumper. While I suspect most jumpers can look around and guarantee that MOST of the jumpers are not an issue, I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to remember that otter 36 had 21 on board, invitational 4 had 23 on board, and then count 43 jumpers before beginning their approach. Nor can they "just look" - I have little doubt that both swoopers looked before they began their 270.

>The other choice is to educate the up and comers, and let
>them understand the full scope of whats happening.

This is a good goal. But it would not have helped with these incidents. The problem was not a lack of swooping skill; the initial problem in both cases was the decision to do a 270 in an uncrowded main landing area.

>Make sure they see that you need to be at a point where the swoop
>is second nature, and the traffic mangement can be your primary
>activity.

I think that could describe the two jumpers here. Again, I don't think that solves the problem.

[stratostar 5]

First of all I'm NOT pointing fingers only addressing what I see going down, an when "we" try to remedy the issue it gets disregarded and an attiude coped, I have seen way to many hotshots overtaking lower canopies from above and behind, at our DZ a lot of the time it was students/lowtimers they were overtaking, and when asked to land out and way from the standard LZ so they could have their owns space to do as they like, they chose to disregard others requests in order to keep looking cool and put on a show,as you can see from the attachment it is very wide open and plenty of room for everyone to land safe, yet if they can't land right in front and put on a show the swoop area is not cool, this attiude is now common place in todays sport, with all that said we are on the same page here, really, I too chose to stay away and will land out at anytime, walking is good for my fat ass in the summer heat.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[davelepka 4]

An importsnt note to make is that I indicated that at my home DZ, with an (as in one) otter full of jumpers I know I can swoop into the pattern.

This is a case of not seeing the whole picutre. At another DZ, or with a bigger or multiple AC, or if there's a meet in progress with visiting teams, none of what I said applies.

Any of those factors casue me to forefit an essential level of control, and thus makes it not possible to swoop in the pattern. These are things that I know before even boarding the plane, so the decision was made for me.

This is the type of thing I'm talking about. If you don't understand the factors I need in place to do what I do, or don't undertand the no exceptions policy I have on any one of those factors not being present, you could mis-constue what I'm doing.

The thing is, none of this is rocket science, and if presented, I think anyone smart enough to earn a license could easily grasp the info.

Diligence in planning, and observing the rules is another story, and I think that the general failure to do this is whats going to necessitate separate landing areas in to the future (not to mention the growing popluation of swoopers. If there were more swoopers at my DZ, again, I might have to operate in a different fashion).

[skybytch 273]

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First of all I'm pointing fingers only addressing what I see going down, an when "we" try to remedy the issue it gets disregarded and an attiude coped,

Oh, I agree that some swoopers have attitudes and won't listen. What I'm pointing out is that some of us "old timers" also have attitudes and sometimes we also won't listen. If we can all get over ourselves and work together to educate all skydivers, we can reduce the number of funerals we have to go to.

Is it going to be easy? Nope. Is it a worthy goal? I think so...

[AFFI 0]

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With so many hotshots in the air these days I feel much safer doing working jumps then fun jumps, at least I'm out last, deepest on the spot and can pull higher and often can be one of the last to land and avoid the idiots. I think more people need to come to the understanding that they don't need to swoop on every jump.

Ditto, Exactly...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…