christelsabine 1 #76 March 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhat a brilliant comparison! I am impressed, JohnRich Actually I think it a good one. People are afraid to go out without a weapon...Maybe. Thx for confirmation. Maybe Such a comparison is simply fat BS. If I decide to skydive, I take over a high risk on my own. With my own will. If I go out, leaving my un-armed home, I do not expect to walk into the danger itself. I just leave and enjoy my life. That's it. I just now try to imagine that my kind neighbour from the left, entering his car same time like me in the morning, heading to the office, is armed; OK, perhaps not fully but, it would be sufficient if he carries a nice little S&M under hit jacket. Horror! Cya, Ron. "Shoot" your way through life like John Wayne. I don't mind and don't need to. @ JohnRich: I'm surprised about such a statement. Expected a little more form you. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #77 March 2, 2005 QuoteSuch a comparison is simply fat BS. If I decide to skydive, I take over a high risk on my own. With my own will. If I go out, leaving my un-armed home, I do not expect to walk into the danger itself. I just leave and enjoy my life. That's it. See its even better... You make a CHOICE to put yourself at risk when you jump. You have NO Choice if you run into a crazy guy with a gun. You think all those that have been killed by guns CHOOSE to be killed? QuoteCya, Ron. "Shoot" your way through life like John Wayne. I don't mind and don't need to I have never un-holstered my weapon. In fact most times I don't not carry one. At work I amy not carry one, and at school I may not carry one. I see no need to carry one at the DZ. I have very little need to carry. However, I do have a loaded gun in my home, and carry when I travel."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CornishChris 5 #78 March 2, 2005 QuoteI have never un-holstered my weapon. In fact most times I don't not carry one. At work I amy not carry one, and at school I may not carry one. I see no need to carry one at the DZ. I have very little need to carry. However, I do have a loaded gun in my home, and carry when I travel. But surely this is hypocritical of your position in itself. You already stated that you don't know when you will run into a crazy guy with a gun so why would you not carry one all the time. What about those disgruntled workers? What about killings in school? Surely you are more at risk out and about than you are at home where you always have a loaded gun. Why do you then need one when you travel? Are you suddenly at higher risk? The problem with any gun argument, as a brief flick through the SC archives will show, is that neither side will ever back down from their position. The gun owners cannot understand why their opposites do not want to protect themselves and find it ridiculous that they don't and then there are people like Brok3n and myself that will never fully understand the need to carry a gun every where we go. I think our issue is that carrying a gun makes it more likely that you will use the gun, either in a correct situation to defend yourself, or in a snap decision when angry. This is not a disputable point by the way - if you have no gun you have no chance of using it. I don't doubt that mosty people on DZ.com will never use their gun in anger on another person, or in any way act unlawfully but it does happen, and even the gun owners must acknowledge this. In the Bonfire recently there was a thread about someone having an intruder in their house. AggieD recommended that if they had a gun (can't remember which one), that the recognisable loading sound would have scared the intruder away. Well what if the owner had panicked, what if they had shot the intruder. Now in hindsight you can say that they were protecting themselves, but on this occasion the guy actually left with no trouble - other than being there in the first place. That would be one dead intruder who it turns out had not been a threat to life and property. I am not justifying the intruder here, just saying that with guns around this could have gone much worse. What if a concealed gun carrier comes home early one day to find his wofe being banged by the milkman - in a fit of rage he shoots that person but it is not justifiable. I don't doubt that guns save people every day in the states. I also don't doubt that it would be impossible to get rid of guns in the US as there is such a plethora of them there. My view is - keep your guns, don't try to force them upon those of us that have made the decision not to have them and I will not try and force you to get rid of them. Guns are not the cause of, or the solution to all of life's problems. Eveyone knows that the answer to that is BEER. CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #79 March 2, 2005 Quote My view is - keep your guns, don't try to force them upon those of us that have made the decision not to have them and I will not try and force you to get rid of them. I wish more people shared your view. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #80 March 2, 2005 QuoteYou think all those that have been killed by guns CHOOSE to be killed? Oh! Oh! Mr. Kotter! I did! I did! No, wait. I didn't. Neither did anyone else. Those killed in violent crime were simply too stupid to recognize it and avoid it. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #81 March 2, 2005 QuoteMy view is - keep your guns, don't try to force them upon those of us that have made the decision not to have them and I will not try and force you to get rid of them. Completely reasonable. Is it also reasonable that those who have chosen not to carry or own a weapon should prevent those who think it's prudent from owning or carrying a weapon? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #82 March 2, 2005 ***My view is - keep your guns, don't try to force them upon those of us that have made the decision not to have them and I will not try and force you to get rid of them. My view is.....Dont take up firearms ownership,if you're not ready to accept all the responsibilities that entails.But dont try to force non ownership on those who choose to take responsibilty for their personal safety,and we wont "force" you to take them up against your will........but it would be really easy since you would be unarmedMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #83 March 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteI cannot begin to imagine what it must be like to live in such fear that you daren't go out without a gun. I cannot begin to imagine what it must be like to skydive in such fear that you daren't jump without a reserve parachute. Isn't it amazing how substituting a different tool and activity in your sentence, totally destroys the validity of your argument? Skydivers who have reserve parachutes do not jump in fear of having a main parachute malfunction. Citizens who own guns do not live in fear of being attacked by criminals. I both cases, they are just prudent measures to take in preparation in case the worst should happen. Come on JR that’s a little bit of a loose comparison, Reserve chutes and guns… How many people have been murdered by someone who had a concealed PD150 reserve??? Do you think that Columbine would have been the same if the two chaps were armed with 9 cell ZP reserves… Jumping out of a plane puts you at risk of injury or even death every time, therefore it is prudent to have a reserve that might protect you or save your life… I can’t imagine that it is so dangerous in the US that every time you walk down the street, drive somewhere that your life is at risk to point that it is prudent to be packing heat….----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #84 March 3, 2005 Damn, and I said to myself that I wasnt going to get sucked into this thread today ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,068 #85 March 3, 2005 >I can’t imagine that it is so dangerous in the US that every time you > walk down the street, drive somewhere that your life is at risk to > point that it is prudent to be packing heat…. It's not. Unless, of course, you have a gun - in which case you don't have to avoid bad areas or situations. After all, you have to justify carrying it somehow! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TypicalFish 0 #86 March 3, 2005 Quote QuoteMy view is - keep your guns, don't try to force them upon those of us that have made the decision not to have them and I will not try and force you to get rid of them. Completely reasonable. Is it also reasonable that those who have chosen not to carry or own a weapon should prevent those who think it's prudent from owning or carrying a weapon? - Jim Did I miss something? Isn't that what is being said?"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #87 March 3, 2005 No, I missed something. Not the first time and it won't be the last! - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #88 March 3, 2005 QuoteMy view is - keep your guns, don't try to force them upon those of us that have made the decision not to have them and I will not try and force you to get rid of them. Your viewpoint is perfect. Unfortuantely, there are many political groups in this country that do want to take away our firearms. That's why I belong to the NRA. Oh, and BTW, I came up with the reserve parachute/gun analogy, like, 7 posts ahead of JohnRich. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #89 March 3, 2005 Quote It's not. Agreed. Quote Unless, of course, you have a gun - in which case you don't have to avoid bad areas or situations. After all, you have to justify carrying it somehow! If you're being serious: Do you actually read the posts before you respond? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TypicalFish 0 #90 March 3, 2005 Quote No, I missed something. Not the first time and it won't be the last! - Jim ... I am dyslexic sometimes (among my myriad of other problems) and just couldn't figure out where I wasn't getting it..."I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #91 March 3, 2005 "Unfortuantely, there are many political groups in this country that do want to take away our firearms." The other issue is that of governments looking to their neighbours to see how they approach issues such as gun control. So you have the resident pro gun folks constantly trying to persuade, say, us Brits to change our laws, so that the US govt won't hold our legislation up as the 'way to do it'. Even though it has been agreed that a great many factors influence any individual society's attitude towards weapons ownership and control. The anti-gunners are guilty of doing this as well. What we need is more tolerance of different approaches, and the realisation that our societies are different, not necessarily any better than each other, just different.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #92 March 3, 2005 QuoteJumping out of a plane puts you at risk of injury or even death every time, therefore it is prudent to have a reserve that might protect you or save your life… I can’t imagine that it is so dangerous in the US that every time you walk down the street, drive somewhere that your life is at risk to point that it is prudent to be packing heat…. Apparently it is in Texas. Glad I live in Chicago.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #93 March 3, 2005 "Jumping out of a plane puts you at risk of injury or even death every time, therefore it is prudent to have a reserve that might protect you or save your life… " The main problem with this analogy is that the use, or misuse of my reserve is less (ignoring premature deployment scenarios) likely to place others in peril, so its not really a good analogy for concealed carry etc.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #94 March 3, 2005 QuoteApparently it is in Texas. Glad I live in Chicago. http://www.packing.org/state/index.jsp/illinois Well then, how convienent that Illinois is one of the 4 states that simplied denies gun rights instead of having some sort of provision. Hell, even the hard core liberal states have some sort of provision for carry. Here's a list of the 35 shall issue states, all of them must be more dangerous then Chicago as well by the anti-gun-rights professor. http://www.packing.org/state/report_basic.jsp?search=shall_issue And of course, just for fun, here's a graphic showing the 24 states that allow a Texas CHL holder to carry in their state as well. http://www.packing.org/state/index.jsp/texas/ Its a good thing that Chicago has no crime, since once again, Illinois doesn't play with the other states. Its almost like Illinois fought their own war and was their own country before deciding to go ahead and join the US...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #95 March 3, 2005 QuoteBut surely this is hypocritical of your position in itself. You already stated that you don't know when you will run into a crazy guy with a gun so why would you not carry one all the time. I know I take a risk...Its one I have to take. QuoteWhat about those disgruntled workers? Simple...Take one to work and I'll get fired. I have to balance having a job with the small chance that a co-worker will go nuts...to get to my office you have to go through a metal detector and all your belongings have to be Xrayed...To work here you have to pass a 10 year background check, any violence on your record and you can't work here. Also we have the police department less than a mile away, Airport police, Customs, the FBI, and private security....I'm pretty safe at work. Quote What about killings in school? How many killings at a professional college have you heard of? See my classmates are all late 20's to 50's. I have found no cases where a shooter went to one of these...Also, I am not allowed to carry there according to the rules...One of the first things you have to abide by if you carry is the property owners wishes. QuoteSurely you are more at risk out and about than you are at home where you always have a loaded gun. The two places listed (actually I listed three...The DZ) I am not allowed to carry due to law, or property owners rules. I will not break the law just to carry. See gun laws only prevent people who would carry legally from carrying...A crazy would not care about the law. I am allowed to have a weapon in my home...So I do. It is to protect myself from a home invasion. IF I could carry at work and school I would, but it would not be legal, so I don't. QuoteWhy do you then need one when you travel? Are you suddenly at higher risk? Yes. I know my area, and the places in my city where I can go with a degree of safety. When traveling I don't know the area, and circumstances that I can't control (Flat tire, almost out of gas) might force me to be in an area I would not go to if I knew better or had another choice...If I have the choice I still don't go there...But you don't always have that choice. QuoteThe gun owners cannot understand why their opposites do not want to protect themselves and find it ridiculous that they don't and then there are people like Brok3n and myself that will never fully understand the need to carry a gun every where we go. BS...I can think of a few reasons not to carry a gun. 1. You are not trained in the use of a firearm...If you are one of those that buys a gun for "protection" loads in and puts it into your sock drawer and never shoots it...Keeps it "in case". I'd rather you not have one. And I'd really rather someone like that not carry one. However if you are like Dave and train with it, or like me Ex-Military I don't have a problem. 2. You go someplace you don't need it. If I am going to my parents for dinner, or a friends for lunch I don't need to carry. I know the route and there is little risk of me being in a conflict from my house to another persons house. 3. You go someplace you are not allowed to carry by law. Such as my office, or my school. The problem is you will never admit that at time someone WITH a gun is a good thing..such as this case where one man saved lives. Can you even admit that there are times when a civilian with a weapon is a good thing? The problem comes for you, not me...I can admit there are times when I don't need one..And in those times I don't carry...Can you admit there are times when you might? QuoteI think our issue is that carrying a gun makes it more likely that you will use the gun, either in a correct situation to defend yourself, or in a snap decision when angry. In the very story that started this thread a guy with a CWP had a gun and did not use it...He made the choice to direct police to the criminal...So your theory that having a gun will make you use it is BS...Dave had a gun and did not fire it. QuoteThis is not a disputable point by the way - if you have no gun you have no chance of using it. The same could be said of AAD's...But I bet most have them. QuoteI don't doubt that mosty people on DZ.com will never use their gun in anger on another person, or in any way act unlawfully but it does happen, and even the gun owners must acknowledge this. There are MUCH more cases of a guy without a license to carry shooting someone that a guy with a CWP...That is a fact you can not deny. QuoteIn the Bonfire recently there was a thread about someone having an intruder in their house. AggieD recommended that if they had a gun (can't remember which one), that the recognisable loading sound would have scared the intruder away. Well what if the owner had panicked, what if they had shot the intruder. Now in hindsight you can say that they were protecting themselves, but on this occasion the guy actually left with no trouble - other than being there in the first place. That would be one dead intruder who it turns out had not been a threat to life and property. I am not justifying the intruder here, just saying that with guns around this could have gone much worse. Without a gun it could have been much worse...Did you read about the judges family in IL who were murdered? If they had a weapon that might not have been the case. We can play this game all day long. Just cause you have a gun does not mean you have to use it...Also in the case you talked about..They both had a sword. Still a deadly weapon..Why is a sword OK, but not a gun? QuoteWhat if a concealed gun carrier comes home early one day to find his wofe being banged by the milkman - in a fit of rage he shoots that person but it is not justifiable. Find me a case of this happening...For every case of this you find, I will find two where the guy took a bat or other heavy object and killed the guy. #1 cause of Domestic violence death...Blunt force trauma...Check it out. QuoteEveyone knows that the answer to that is BEER. We would be a much safer society if we outlawed alcohol instead of guns."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #96 March 3, 2005 QuoteIt's not. Unless, of course, you have a gun - in which case you don't have to avoid bad areas or situations. After all, you have to justify carrying it somehow! You assume that anyone that has a gun goes out looking for trouble...thats silly and you know it. If it were true there would be a BUNCH more cases of shootouts involving CWP holders."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #97 March 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteApparently it is in Texas. Glad I live in Chicago. http://www.packing.org/state/index.jsp/illinois Well then, how convienent that Illinois is one of the 4 states that simplied denies gun rights instead of having some sort of provision. Hell, even the hard core liberal states have some sort of provision for carry. Here's a list of the 35 shall issue states, all of them must be more dangerous then Chicago as well by the anti-gun-rights professor. http://www.packing.org/state/report_basic.jsp?search=shall_issue And of course, just for fun, here's a graphic showing the 24 states that allow a Texas CHL holder to carry in their state as well. http://www.packing.org/state/index.jsp/texas/ Its a good thing that Chicago has no crime, since once again, Illinois doesn't play with the other states. Its almost like Illinois fought their own war and was their own country before deciding to go ahead and join the US... You Texans appear afraid to walk or drive the streets of your state unarmed, while we Illinoisians aren't. Go figure.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #98 March 3, 2005 QuoteApparently it is in Texas. Glad I live in Chicago. Quote A comfortable arrangement for all... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #99 March 3, 2005 chicago.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm dallas.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm This is the link I used, they got their data from the FBI crime stats, Dallas can be a fairly dangerous city so I went ahead and picked dallas out of the group of large Texas cities I could have used. However, Houston, San Antonio, Austin, FT Worth, El Paso and every other town I looked at had even lower numbers then Dallas. So to keep everything fair and all I used the city with the higher numbers. When I could have used a city like Ft Worth or San Antonio and made your statements look even more off the wall and basically worthless. These are from 2002. Lets see, in 2002 Chicago had 648 murders, Dallas had 196. Chicago had 18,532 robberies and Dallas had 8041. Chicago had 24,842 aggravated Assaults and Dallas had a scant 8125. Would you like me to continue? The trend is the same for every other crime that they reported. So you're right Kallend, even though there were 452 more murders in Chicago then Dallas, 10,491 more robberies in Chicago then Dallas and 16,717 more aggravated assaults then in Dallas, Chicago is obviously a very safe city. So please continue to state that Chicago is safer, we all know its a lie and we'll all just continue to shake our heads at your untruths every time you insist on repeating them. I just hope that you actually teach facts in the classroom, unlike the "facts" you like to state in reference to your anti-gun-rights stance, otherwise I do pitty your students.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #100 March 3, 2005 Are Dallas and Chocago similar sized populations and have similar demographics Dave? I'm guessing so... FWIW, I never experienced any stressful situations or feared for my safety whilst in Texas. Apart from driving on the loop.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
