Texas shoot out.

[Ron 10]

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Apparently it is in Texas. Glad I live in Chicago

Yeah Chicago is safe



http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1505537#1505537

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Federal Judge Joan Lefkow arrived home from work Monday to find her husband and her mother dead in a basement study of her Edgewater home.

Labor lawyer Michael Lefkow and the judge's 89-year-old mother, Donna Humphrey, visiting from Denver, were found in a pool of blood, sources said. It was unclear how they died. Police found no initial signs of forced entry.

Jan-June 2002:
277 murders
914 criminal sexual assult
8,165 robberies
12,008 Agravated Assult and Batteries
11,343 burgleries

21,364 violent crimes.

Source http://www.chicago-neighborhoods.net/crime_stats.php "know the city"

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AggieDave 6]

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Are Dallas and Chocago similar sized populations and have similar demographics Dave? I'm guessing so...

Sort of, its about as close as I could get it. We have more hispancs then Chicago, though. Houston has a closer demographic, but the numbers were even lower so I wanted to use the higher numbers out of all the TX cities I looked at. That way it would be a little more fair with the differences not being too dramatic (which they were anyways).


You're right though, its only been once since I got my CHL that I felt honet to go threatened for my well being, and that was a random happen stance. I know quite a few CHL holders and most of them have never had to even think about drawing their weapon. However, there's been a couple I've talked to that had to draw and fire, one was on his own property, one was an older man that some men in their 20's had run off the road and tried to assualt/rob. The man couldn't get his weapon drawn before they were pulling him through the car window, BUT his wife (similar age, in their late 60s) drew her 357 snub nose from her purse and unloaded. She shot 3 of them and the other two fled the scene in fear.

The crime statistics also showed the point that crime isn't as bad here, but there are many citizens in this state (as well as just about every state in the union, check the links a couple posts up) that would rather not play the game of fear, but would rather be prepared. Just like having a spare tire for your car, you want to be ready just in case.


EDIT:

Forgot to say...the loop? You were scared for yourself on the loop? Hey nacmac, I like you man, you know that, but until you come back and get on a motorcycle and go cruising with me through the loop and 45 and 290 on a bike...you ain't seen scary!

There's a reason why I make for damned sure to wear full leathers even in the summer heat if I'm on my bike going to H-town! I'm not living my life in fear, I just want to be prepaired incase something does happen.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"but until you come back and get on a motorcycle and go cruising with me through the loop and 45 and 290 on a bike...you ain't seen scary!"

Now your talking Bro, me and you and a brace of fine looking cruising hogs....That's definitely scary.
I really just wanted to chip in with my experiences of Texas, as a sort of neutral outsider who lived there for the better part of a year. I never felt under threat, whether that sense of security was due to so many citizens being armed or not is obiously a matter for some discussion.

Keep wearing those leathers Dave, ride like they are all out to kill ya, its the same over here.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[AggieDave 6]

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I really just wanted to chip in with my experiences of Texas, as a sort of neutral outsider who lived there for the better part of a year.

That's why its cool when you post about these sorts of things. Since you're definately not from TX, even though you liked it here.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[airtwardo 7]

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a guy with a CWP had a gun and did not use it...He made the choice to direct police to the criminal...So your theory that having a gun will make you use it is BS

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Logical & well stated argument Ron...

Just to add...
I'm betting the reason the guy DID follow them
and report, is because he felt secure enough to do so.
Might not have, had he been unarmed.

(I know I wouldn't have)

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Kennedy 0]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149250,00.html

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Good Samaritan Gun Use
Thursday, March 03, 2005
By John Lott, Jr.

A multiple victim public shooting last week outside the court house in Tyler, Texas, stemming from a custody dispute, resulted in the murder of two people and the wounding of four others.

Killings like this frequently make the news, and this story was carried by all the television networks and most major newspapers. ABC and NBC evening news coverage was fairly typical; they noted, respectively, that “David Hernandez Arroyo (search) fired off more than 50 rounds. He killed two people before police shot him dead” and “A gunman killed his ex-wife and a bystander and wounded four others between--before being shot to death by police.”

Of the 71 unique news stories found by a computerized Nexis search of stories in the four days after the attack, 38 percent mention that an AK-47 (search) or high-powered rifle was used by the attacker. As usual, gun control groups called for more gun control.

Eric Howard, with the Brady Campaign to End Gun Violence (search), said “These are military-style weapons that pose a significant risk to civilians and the police officers trying to protect the public.”

Only two stories mentioned that the AK-47 was a semi-automatic, not a machine gun, and, while it is understandable, none of the articles provided context by explaining that Arroyo’s weapon functioned the same as deer hunting rifles, firing the same caliber bullets, at the same rapidity, and doing the same damage.


Seems like pretty standard media coverage. But what makes this case different is that 21 percent of the news stories actually mentioned that a citizen licensed to carry a concealed weapon used his gun to try and help stop the attack.

The citizen, 50 year old Mark Wilson, was one of the two people murdered. As CNN reported, “Everyone here agrees, Wilson saved lives.” Fox News' website quoted the sheriff as saying "if it hadn't been for Mr. Wilson, [Arroyo's son] would be dead."

Wilson, a licensed concealed handgun permit holder, heard Arroyo’s shots and saw the commotion from his apartment window. He grabbed a handgun and headed toward the attacker. Arroyo had already wounded several police officers and there was no one left to prevent his rampage.

Arroyo had also shot his 22-year-old son and was about ready to shoot him again from very close range when Wilson fired his gun, hitting Arroyo several times in the chest. Arroyo was wearing a bullet resistant vest and flak jacket and Wilson's shots did not seriously wound him. Yet, Wilson’s shots forced Arroyo to come after him, and it used up a couple of minutes of his time. Unfortunately, in the exchange of gunfire, Arroyo eventually fatally shot Wilson. With police arriving, Arroyo fled the scene and was later shot to death by police as they pursued him.

Neighbors described Wilson as “one of the nicest, sweetest guys I've ever known.” Others pointed out that “He's not going to sit back and -- when he could do something about it, and just let it happen” and called him a hero.

It is not remarkable that someone such as Mark Wilson was there at the scene to stop the attack before police arrived. For example, in about 30 percent of the multiple victim public school shootings that have captivated Americans’ attention starting in 1997, people used guns to stop the attacks before uniformed police were able to arrive on the scene. Few people know about these cases because only about one percent of the news stories on these cases mention how the attacks were stopped.

What is remarkable is that this heroism--an act of defensive gun use (search)--did receive some national attention. Undoubtedly, much of the coverage came from the fact that Mark Wilson was killed by Arroyo, but it still doesn’t take away from the fact that many stories admitted that he had saved at least one life and a few stories quoted police saying that he had probably saved multiple lives.

Of course, gun control advocates draw their usual conclusion from all this. Kristen Rand, legislative director for the pro-gun control Violence Policy Center (search) in Washington, D.C., claims the Tyler shooting last Thursday shows that criminals are undeterred by people potentially carrying concealed weapons. But, in fact, more nearly the opposite is true. When Arroyo faced the choice of continuing to shoot others or defending himself, he was forced to defend himself. Making Arroyo's attacks more risky caused him to change his behavior.

More generally, though, it is strange that Rand points to one case as evidence that deterrence doesn't work. In the book, The Bias Against Guns, Bill Landes of the University of Chicago Law School and I examine multiple-victim public shootings in the United States from 1977 to 1999 and find that when states passed right-to-carry laws, these attacks fell by 60 percent. Deaths and injuries from multiple-victim public shootings fell on average by 78 percent.

Many people find it hard to believe that 18 national surveys by academics as well as national polling organizations show that there are 2 million defensive gun uses each year. After all, if these events were really happening, wouldn't we hear about them on the news? Yet when was the last time you saw a story on the national evening news (or even the local news) about a citizen using a gun to stop a crime? ABC’s and NBC’s news coverage continued this pattern, but at least some CBS and CNN news reports provided some balance and Fox News’ website also gave the full story.

This misreporting actually endangers people's lives. By selectively reporting the news and turning a defensive gun use story into one that merely says "police shot him dead," the media give misleading impressions of what actions saved the lives of people confronted by violence. As Wilson's case demonstrates, defensive gun use is not a guns-rights myth. Guns have been and are used by law abiding citizens to protect and save their own lives and the lives of others.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Ron 10]

Yes, but still only two sources for the bravery of Ron Martell who heard the shots, had a weapon and a CWP but instead of shooting at Arroyo, led police to him.

So much for the "If you have a gun, you will use it crowd".

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Kennedy 0]

Some people will always think that the trigger pulls the finger, responsibility be damned. What can you do?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Ron 10]

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Some people will always think that the trigger pulls the finger, responsibility be damned. What can you do?

Yeah, just last night I had to tackle my .357. It was drunk, and running all by itself towards the door to go out looking for trouble.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[christelsabine 1]

It was drunk, and running all by itself towards the door to go out looking for trouble.

[Ron 10]

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Who is "it"?

My .357 was going out on its own looking for a fight. I was lucky I saw it before it got out the door and killed someone.

Some people still think that guns kill people. Mine just lay there and do nothing...Not once have I been able to catch it moving on its own, much less kill someone....But I keep my eye on it just in case it is lulling me into a false sense of security.

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Or should I go back to school to learn proper English?
Don't understand.

It was a joke...I am sure your English is much better than my German....I can only call people "Pig-Dogs" and order a few german beers.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[justinb138 0]

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It was drunk, and running all by itself towards the door to go out looking for trouble.

Who is "it"?



Or should I go back to school to learn proper English?
Don't understand.

Thx.

[christelsabine 1]

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Who is "it"?

My .357 was going out on its own looking for a fight. I was lucky I saw it before it got out the door and killed someone.

Some people still think that guns kill people. Mine just lay there and do nothing...Not once have I been able to catch it moving on its own, much less kill someone....But I keep my eye on it just in case it is lulling me into a false sense of security.

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Or should I go back to school to learn proper English?
Don't understand.

It was a joke...I am sure your English is much better than my German....I can only call people "Pig-Dogs" and order a few german beers.

Ok. Now I understand all. Guns don't kill people, it's the trigger pulling the finger (I think, someone stated that before me). Accepted.

But much more I would like to know your German words for a pig dog and a real tasty German beer!

How was your S&W telling you to go out and look for a fight?

Ron, I think you just wanted to say: It was dark outside, I was drunk.... we were.. (perhaps your S&W and you? )
What's barrel length? Just curious.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[JohnRich 4]

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Come on JR that’s a little bit of a loose comparison, Reserve chutes and guns…

How many people have been murdered by someone who had a concealed PD150 reserve??? Do you think that Columbine would have been the same if the two chaps were armed with 9 cell ZP reserves…

You are confusing lawful self-defense with criminal murder. The first does not cause the second.

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Jumping out of a plane puts you at risk of injury or even death every time, therefore it is prudent to have a reserve that might protect you or save your life…

I can’t imagine that it is so dangerous in the US that every time you walk down the street, drive somewhere that your life is at risk to point that it is prudent to be packing heat….

Your odds of being a victim of criminal attack might be somewhat less than that of having a main parachute malfunction, but nevertheless, when the worst happens, having the means to save yourself is an absolute must. You only have to use a reserve parachute or a gun once, to appreciate that it added many years to your life and enjoyment on this earth.

I am in favor of every citizen having the freedom to choose for themselves what protective measures they should take, if any. I am against anyone who tells me that I can't choose to have a gun for that purpose.

[JohnRich 4]

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Unless, of course, you have a gun - in which case you don't have to avoid bad areas or situations. After all, you have to justify carrying it somehow!

So you think that everyone who is a victim of crime is someone who was in a "bad area or situation", and could have simply chosen to be elsewhere to avoid the problem?

What about the family of that Illinois judge that was just murdered in their own home, apparently as a revenge killing for a case against a Nazi skinhead? Was their own home a "bad place" to be? Shall we all flee our homes because they are too dangerous? Where should we go to be safe if not in our own homes? Should judges all resign from their office so that they aren't put into "bad situations"? Should cops resign too?

[JohnRich 4]

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Oh, and BTW, I came up with the reserve parachute/gun analogy, like, 7 posts ahead of JohnRich.

Yeah, so how about we let you get all the criticism for the analogy, and I'll take all the praise. Okay?

[JohnRich 4]

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I can’t imagine that it is so dangerous in the US that every time you walk down the street, drive somewhere that your life is at risk to point that it is prudent to be packing heat….

Apparently it is in Texas. Glad I live in Chicago.

Oh my, how quickly the professor forgot those comparative murder stats between Chicago and Houston. I hope your students have better memories than their instructor.

Here's a refresher course for you:
Chicago: 22 per 100,000
Houston: 12 per 100,000

[JohnRich 4]

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The main problem with this analogy is that the use, or misuse of my reserve is less (ignoring premature deployment scenarios) likely to place others in peril, so its not really a good analogy for concealed carry etc.

You can't ignore premature deployment scenarios, as that is the equivalent of an accidental gun discharge.

So tell us; how often have people with concealed handgun licenses shot someone wrongfully in the process of defending themselves?

And how does that compare with the number of times those same people have correctly defended themselves or others with their guns?

[JohnRich 4]

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You Texans appear afraid to walk or drive the streets of your state unarmed, while we Illinoisians aren't. Go figure.

Is that your idea of scientific analysis and proof, professor?

[JohnRich 4]

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I'm betting the reason the guy DID follow them
and report, is because he felt secure enough to do so.
Might not have, had he been unarmed.

Bingo! I'm glad someone else thought of that. An unarmed man would naturally be afraid to follow a killer fleeing a scene, because the killer could stop his car and kill the follower. An armed man, on the other hand, feels more secure and can defend himself, and therefore assist the police in apprehension of the bad guy.

Laws don't stop bad people from getting guns.
So what stops bad guys with guns?
Answer: Good guys with guns.

[CornishChris 5]

Ron - I take on board all your points about not being able to carry guns to school work and places they are illegal. Fair enough and good come back.


What about: You go someplace you don't need it. If I am going to my parents for dinner, or a friends for lunch I don't need to carry. What if you had been for dinner at the judges house when they were attacked? Again I think your stance on when you carry and don't is hypocritical. I understand you want to protect youself, what about protecting these family and friends as well. If your argument for carrying a gun is self protection then you should be carrying it everywhere you go that you are legally able to, correct?

I liked this bit of your post:

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The problem is you will never admit that at time someone WITH a gun is a good thing..such as this case where one man saved lives.

Can you even admit that there are times when a civilian with a weapon is a good thing?

The problem comes for you, not me...I can admit there are times when I don't need one..And in those times I don't carry...Can you admit there are times when you might?

It went well with this bit of mine that you chose to ignore:

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I don't doubt that guns save people every day in the states

This bit made no sense:

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In Reply To
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This is not a disputable point by the way - if you have no gun you have no chance of using it.

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The same could be said of AAD's...But I bet most have them.

In response to:

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They both had a sword. Still a deadly weapon..Why is a sword OK, but not a gun?

Any situation where you are arming yourself has the potential to go wrong. a simple finger movement on a trigger is more likely to kill someone than the hacking of a sword. I don't see how the situation could have been much worse without a gun as you put it. In the case we are discussing they found the person and they left the property. My suggestion was that if they had had a gun and freaked out the person could have died. I suppose this could have happened with a sword as well but it is less likely. Will you admit that there is a difference between a sword and a gun or are they one and the same to you?

I tried earlier in this thread to agree to disagree yet you seem intent on almost mocking my arguments and opinions. People will always have different views on guns. I don't feel the need to carry one and hope never to live in a place where I do feel that need. The fact that you chose to is your own right in your country. Personally I relate much more to Kallend & Billvon who, whilst in the same country, still don't feel they need to be armed to the teeth to feel secure. I am a little sorry for the people who do feel that way, it must be a shame to live in a society where you think the risk to your person is great enough to warrant that level of self protection. Before you go banding statistis about crime in the UK or Australia to me, I would point out that whatever the stats say, I do not feel that level of threat, never have and hopefully never will.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[Ron 10]

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What about: You go someplace you don't need it. If I am going to my parents for dinner, or a friends for lunch I don't need to carry. What if you had been for dinner at the judges house when they were attacked? Again I think your stance on when you carry and don't is hypocritical. I understand you want to protect youself, what about protecting these family and friends as well. If your argument for carrying a gun is self protection then you should be carrying it everywhere you go that you are legally able to, correct?

Good point. But my stance has always been to have on in cases where I might need it...I don't assume I will need it all the time. In that case I might have been killed visiting my friend the judge, but my parents and my friend are also armed. My Dad is 65 and knows he can not fight a 20 year old, and my buddy is a redneck.

While I *might* get into trouble at the judges house...There are some risks I am willing to look at and take.

But you are correct I might have been toast at the judges...All this proves is that I am not paranoid and I don't feel the NEED for a weapon....I like the chance of having a fair shake in situations that I feel are dangerous.

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It went well with this bit of mine that you chose to ignore:I don't doubt that guns save people every day in the states

Sorry you are correct I did miss it. I am sorry.

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This is not a disputable point by the way - if you have no gun you have no chance of using it.

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The same could be said of AAD's...But I bet most have them.

You don't NEED a gun...You don't NEED an AAD. But most skydivers like the idea of an AAD for protection...The same is said for a good number of people who carry a gun...They don't NEED it, but they like the idea of having it...

It is better to have it than not need it than need it and not have it.

Yes, in BOTH cases there are people who will use the fact they have one (AAD or weapon) to do stupid stuff...Both groups are idiots.

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Any situation where you are arming yourself has the potential to go wrong. a simple finger movement on a trigger is more likely to kill someone than the hacking of a sword.

Rule one in the military was not to have your finger on the trigger till you are ready to kill. So a finger movement would not mean much of anything...Also I have already said I am not a fan of just anyone Carrying a weapon. Also most GOOD guns require a good trigger pull. My carry piece is DA only and you really have to pull to get it to fire.

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I don't see how the situation could have been much worse without a gun as you put it.

In the story the intruder saw they had two people with swords....If they did not have the swords they guy may not have been so quick to leave.

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Will you admit that there is a difference between a sword and a gun or are they one and the same to you?

They are not that different..Both were meant for only one thing...to kill. You may say that a sword is pretty, but Dave would say his Kimber is beautiful.

BTW I have both guns and a sword...I took Iato years ago, and Kendo.

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I don't feel the need to carry one and hope never to live in a place where I do feel that need. The fact that you chose to is your own right in your country. Personally I relate much more to Kallend & Billvon who, whilst in the same country, still don't feel they need to be armed to the teeth to feel secure. I am a little sorry for the people who do feel that way, it must be a shame to live in a society where you think the risk to your person is great enough to warrant that level of self protection.

I don't feel the NEED...but do you jump without an AAD? Its kinda the same thing to me...Both are backups if the shit hits the fan. I have both an AAD and a gun.....I don't plan on using either, but I like the idea that if I screw up and need it...Its there.

I don't live in fear of bouncing or getting shot. I live my life and skydive the same if I have a gun or AAD or not.

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I do not feel that level of threat, never have and hopefully never will.

I hope no one does...but if it does happen I hope I picked that day to be armed..Even if I don't shoot and kill the guy...I'd rather have that option than not have it and need it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,107]

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I don't feel the NEED...but do you jump without an AAD? Its kinda the same thing to me...Both are backups if the shit hits the fan. I have both an AAD and a gun.....I don't plan on using either, but I like the idea that if I screw up and need it...Its there.

I don't live in fear of bouncing or getting shot. I live my life and skydive the same if I have a gun or AAD or not.

Not all risks are equal, Ron. I've been skydiving for nearly 8 years, and 3 good friends and 6 acquaintances have died skydiving in that time. Skydiving is very risky and warrants an appropriate level of precaution.

OTOH I have been on this Earth nearly 60 years, 27 of those in Chicago, and have never been threatened, assaulted, etc. NOR HAS ANYONE I KNOW. I don't consider this possibility to be a significant risk at all.

Do you wear an aluminum foil beanie to protect your brain from cosmic rays? Thought not. The risk is not worth the effort. IMO, guns are in the same category.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

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The risk is not worth the effort. IMO, guns are in the same category.

We respect your opinion in the matter, and only wish others would respect ours.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Ron 10]

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Not all risks are equal, Ron

Do you think the judge who had her family killed feels that way?

It is a simple matter of scope.

I loose one friend a year....It might be cause I know lots of skydivers.

I only know one guy ever to be killed by a car when he was walking.

I guess that means that more people die skydiving than hit by car huh?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334