Ron 10 #76 March 2, 2005 Quotebut was rumored to get nominated for a Nobel due to his change of stance on the death penalty. What is it with you folks and approval seeking? Just cause he *might* have been nominated means nothing...Yassar Arrafat was given one for "peace""No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #77 March 2, 2005 QuoteQuotebut was rumored to get nominated for a Nobel due to his change of stance on the death penalty. What is it with you folks and approval seeking? Just cause he *might* have been nominated means nothing...Yassar Arrafat was given one for "peace" You folks? He is a republican and doesn't hold the same views on many topics that I do. Esp that whole bribe scandal. In fact, it was that scandal that caused the Nobel's to come out and ask via the media to make sure he wasn't nominated. Apparently they want all candidates to be clean with no bad press associated with them. The good thing about him is he finally saw that humanitarian avenues should be used when dealing with all people._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #78 March 2, 2005 QuoteApparently they want all candidates to be clean with no bad press associated with them. Yassar Arrafat was given one for "peace" QuoteThe good thing about him is he finally saw that humanitarian avenues should be used when dealing with all people Or he did something that would make him popular with the "blue" folks in his "blue" state. Maybe the system that IL had was so fucked up something had to be done? Still, I have no problem putting someone to death for capital crimes."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #79 March 2, 2005 >I disagree... Not saying that I agree with that interpretation; it's just the parallel argument. Imagine having a law that said - A healthy populace being necessary to the well being of the country, a woman's right to control her own body, shall not be infringed. Liberals would claim it protected abortion; conservatives would claim "it is clearly referring to the right to control your body just to keep it healthy! It's in there because men used to have legal control over their wives; it doesn't apply any more." Liberals would go around quoting just the last part; conservatives would work themselves up into a lather claiming they are just protecting the innocent victims. >Put 10 people in a room and ask them to write down what an Arm is... >you will get some reasonable level of continuity in their answers... Not arguing that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #80 March 2, 2005 Quote Still, I have no problem putting someone to death for capital crimes. I don't either, but if a life sentance w/o parole is easier, cheaper, and will shut up the people complaining about it, why not just do that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #81 March 2, 2005 QuoteA healthy populace being necessary to the well being of the country, a woman's right to control her own body, shall not be infringed. It should say the right of the people to control their own bodies... Otherwise it could be argued that because it specifies woman, that a man does not have such a right, and that would be discrimintory... Anyway... If that were a constitutional amendment I would say abortion is constitutionaly protected... but it would also make involentary bodily fluid or DNA samples unconstitutioanl... JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #82 March 2, 2005 QuoteI don't either, but if a life sentance w/o parole is easier, cheaper, and will shut up the people complaining about it, why not just do that? Easier? I can't see it being easier. Cheaper?...Maybe. But they system could be better run. Only have capital punishment for cases that are quite clear...such as ones where the guy confesses, or the proof is quite clear. also no one has shown any proof one way or another which is cheaper...One has high costs of trial..The other has high costs of taking care of a prisioner for quite a long time...40-50 years with the expenses of medical care that get MUCH more expensive as people get older. Shut people up? Who cares? If you wanted to go that route then maybe they should shut up and allow us to kill the guilty...Or maybe they should shut up and make abortions illegal again....Or maybe we should make crack legal since it would be much easier to not deal with it... There is right, and there is wrong. People who rape and kill then eat them...Well they should not live, they would NEVER be rehabilitated. Also the problem with a "life sentance" is that people don't serve "life". They get out. The easy road while attractive is not always the right one."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #83 March 2, 2005 >Otherwise it could be argued . . . Exactly. And it would be, just as the second amendment, and the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment, is being argued. There's nothing wrong wtih any of that; one of the reasons we have a judiciary is to mediate such arguments. Sometimes they rule on their interpretations, as in this case. Sometimes they specifically and purposefully do NOT rule on things, because they do not wish to make that interpretation - leaving it up to others to decide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #84 March 2, 2005 QuoteExactly. And it would be, just as the second amendment, and the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment, is being argued. Then why just for people under 18? Is it not cruel and unusual if the guy is 18?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #85 March 2, 2005 Quotecheaper This was discussed in a thread a while back, and no one could really show a valid cost comparrison from start of initial trial to death (either by execution or natural causes) between a life sentance and execution... I'm not saying it is or isn't cheaper, just that no one has backed up that claim with tangible proof... I'd be fine with giving up the death penalty if LWOP was worse than death for the convict. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #86 March 2, 2005 QuoteQuotecheaper This was discussed in a thread a while back, and no one could really show a valid cost comparrison from start of initial trial to death (either by execution or natural causes) between a life sentance and execution... I'm not saying it is or isn't cheaper, just that no one has backed up that claim with tangible proof... I'd be fine with giving up the death penalty if LWOP was worse than death for the convict. J What you mean is that none of the evidence submitted was accepted by you. Several states have done studies showing exactly the cost comparison, and these were mentioned in that previous thread. In fact the economic evidence against CP is very strong in comparison to any evidence showing that CP is a deterrent. Or, for that matter, that CCW laws reduce crime.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #87 March 2, 2005 Quote Easier? I can't see it being easier. How many appeals are the with a CP case as opposed to when the sentance is life? Quote Cheaper?...Maybe. But they system could be better run. Only have capital punishment for cases that are quite clear...such as ones where the guy confesses, or the proof is quite clear. I agree the system could be better run. Quote Shut people up? Who cares? If you wanted to go that route then maybe they should shut up and allow us to kill the guilty...Or maybe they should shut up and make abortions illegal again....Or maybe we should make crack legal since it would be much easier to not deal with it... Personally I don't really care, but it is an added bonus. Quote There is right, and there is wrong. People who rape and kill then eat them...Well they should not live, they would NEVER be rehabilitated. I wouldn't disagree, but I think for alot of them, spending the rest of their life being someone's bitch would be worse than death. Quote Also the problem with a "life sentance" is that people don't serve "life". They get out. In some cases. I doubt that in a case severe enough to warrant CP that they would though. Quote The easy road while attractive is not always the right one. What good reasons are there to execute someone, when there are more reasonable alternatives? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #88 March 2, 2005 QuoteHow many appeals are the with a CP case as opposed to when the sentance is life? Varies by state. QuoteIn some cases. I doubt that in a case severe enough to warrant CP that they would though. I don't. See prison should be a deterrent, punishment and an opportunity for those that can to be rehabilitated... For cases worthy of CP..I don't care about rehabilitation. They should be prevented from EVER getting out and be punished. Most times not getting out is not good enough. QuoteWhat good reasons are there to execute someone, when there are more reasonable alternatives? You have to define "reasonable"....I see CP as reasonable for capital crimes. I don't see spending money, time and effort to try and keep these guys alive and healthy as reasonable. Also any effort to rehabilitate them is also a waste since they should never be let out. There is nothing wrong with punishment when it is justified."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #89 March 2, 2005 QuoteQuote I don't see spending money, time and effort to try and keep these guys alive and healthy as reasonable. . Not one single state has produced a study showing it costs less to execute a convicted murderer than to imprison her for life. A whole bunch, including Florida, have produced studies showing it costs a whole lot more to execute than to imprison for life. It cost Illinois over $1.1Billion to be a death penalty state over a 25 year period, according to official state data.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #90 March 2, 2005 Quote You have to define "reasonable"....I see CP as reasonable for capital crimes. I don't see spending money, time and effort to try and keep these guys alive and healthy as reasonable. By reasonable I mean: Cheaper (kallend has provided those stats), and easier (I doubt you'll find a state where is is easier to get a death sentance than a life sentance). Why spend the extra money just to see them dead? Quote Also any effort to rehabilitate them is also a waste since they should never be let out. Agreed. Quote There is nothing wrong with punishment when it is justified. I wouldn't say that it's not justified, just not necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #91 March 2, 2005 QuoteNot one single state has produced a study showing it costs less to execute a convicted murderer than to imprison her for life. A whole bunch, including Florida, have produced studies showing it costs a whole lot more to execute than to imprison for life. It cost Illinois over $1.1Billion to be a death penalty state over a 25 year period, according to official state data. Nuts, they make it expensive on purpose. Think old west - a rope, a gallows, and plain pine box. Compare that to minimal health care food and lodging and guards for 80 years. The REAL cost is somewhere in between. edit: To simplify - you state exectue vs imprison for life - that's what's nuts. All the legal stuff/cost prior to that should be equivalent. If it's not, then that's the cause of any expense delta and what should be fixed, not the sentencing. The logic that it's too expensive is specious and a self-made argument. Here's an analogy - I can tell you it's too expensive for you to buy bread - then get legislation to require the price of bread to be $4M per loaf. It'll still only cost a few cents to mass produce. The execution itself should be infinitely cheaper than lifetime care. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #92 March 2, 2005 Quote Nuts, they make it expensive on purpose. Think old west - a rope, a gallows, and plain pine box. Compare that to minimal health care food and lodging and guards for 80 years. The REAL cost is somewhere in between. I would think that most of it goes to the court costs/appeals/etc. It would be interesting to see what the actual costs are. If life in prison were more expensive than CP, my opinion on CP would probably change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #93 March 2, 2005 QuoteQuote Nuts, they make it expensive on purpose. Think old west - a rope, a gallows, and plain pine box. Compare that to minimal health care food and lodging and guards for 80 years. The REAL cost is somewhere in between. I would think that most of it goes to the court costs/appeals/etc. But you get that anyway. Cut and dried cases shouldn't have to go through all that crap. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,107 #94 March 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteNot one single state has produced a study showing it costs less to execute a convicted murderer than to imprison her for life. A whole bunch, including Florida, have produced studies showing it costs a whole lot more to execute than to imprison for life. It cost Illinois over $1.1Billion to be a death penalty state over a 25 year period, according to official state data. Nuts, they make it expensive on purpose. Think old west - a rope, a gallows, and plain pine box. Compare that to minimal health care food and lodging and guards for 80 years. The REAL cost is somewhere in between. edit: To simplify - you state exectue vs imprison for life - that's what's nuts. All the legal stuff/cost prior to that should be equivalent. If it's not, then that's the cause of any expense delta and what should be fixed, not the sentencing. The logic that it's too expensive is specious and a self-made argument. Here's an analogy - I can tell you it's too expensive for you to buy bread - then get legislation to require the price of bread to be $4M per loaf. It'll still only cost a few cents to mass produce. The execution itself should be infinitely cheaper than lifetime care. The reason it's expensive doesn't matter, it just IS, because that's the way the legal protections of our society have evolved. Societal evolution is against CP, history shows that. When was the last civilian judicial execution for a non-murder crime? CP willl eventually go away altogether in the US, just like it did in the civilized world.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #95 March 2, 2005 specious John "it just is" is a terrible discussion for someone who demands/desires change in some of the fundamental ways this country is run I've traveled enough, I feel as secure in the barbarism of this un civilized nation as in any other country in the 'civilized world' even more so most of the time (due to familiarity of course). But just in case, you should provide a specific list of the civilized countries - I really want to know. edit: BTW - glad you're back, we need a bit more biting humor here, it's become a bit somber at times. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Botellines 0 #96 March 2, 2005 When it comes to capital punishment hardly anyone addresses the problem of executing innocent people. To me that alone is more than enough to switch all capital punishment to life without parole (the hard labor one) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #97 March 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteWell, it didn't take you long being admitted back into this forum once again, before you resumed playing your little irrelevant games. Is that necesary? I'm not aware of the reference, but it sounds like a metaphor to avoid having to drag out an explanation. If you're not aware of the background behind that statement, then why do you feel the necessity to comment upon it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #98 March 2, 2005 QuoteAt which university is John Lott a professor? Last I read he was at the AEI. I acknowledge this as your second attempt to hijack this thread with an off-topic subject. Apparently you didn't read what I said previously: "If you have some problem with Professor John Lott, start your own thread and state your case. "Hijacking this unrelated thread to vent your anger with John Lott is not the appropriate way to make your point." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #99 March 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteI haven't mentioned Professor John Lott in this forum since Jan. 14th, 2004 - over a year ago. Funny, this post is from January 17 2005... You are correct. I erred in my search by sorting by relevance rather than by posting date. QuoteHowever, you cannot argue one logic in one situation, and the opposite in another... However, that doesn't change the fact that discussion of John Lott here is off-topic. Start your own thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #100 March 2, 2005 Quotethe economic evidence against CP is very strong in comparison to any evidence showing that CP is a deterrent. Well heck, it would be even cheaper still if we just released all the criminals from prison so that we didn't have to support them at all. Fact is, cost is not a factor in determining justice. If the death penalty is deserved, it is deserved regardless of whatever it may cost in dollars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 4 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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justinb138 0 #90 March 2, 2005 Quote You have to define "reasonable"....I see CP as reasonable for capital crimes. I don't see spending money, time and effort to try and keep these guys alive and healthy as reasonable. By reasonable I mean: Cheaper (kallend has provided those stats), and easier (I doubt you'll find a state where is is easier to get a death sentance than a life sentance). Why spend the extra money just to see them dead? Quote Also any effort to rehabilitate them is also a waste since they should never be let out. Agreed. Quote There is nothing wrong with punishment when it is justified. I wouldn't say that it's not justified, just not necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #91 March 2, 2005 QuoteNot one single state has produced a study showing it costs less to execute a convicted murderer than to imprison her for life. A whole bunch, including Florida, have produced studies showing it costs a whole lot more to execute than to imprison for life. It cost Illinois over $1.1Billion to be a death penalty state over a 25 year period, according to official state data. Nuts, they make it expensive on purpose. Think old west - a rope, a gallows, and plain pine box. Compare that to minimal health care food and lodging and guards for 80 years. The REAL cost is somewhere in between. edit: To simplify - you state exectue vs imprison for life - that's what's nuts. All the legal stuff/cost prior to that should be equivalent. If it's not, then that's the cause of any expense delta and what should be fixed, not the sentencing. The logic that it's too expensive is specious and a self-made argument. Here's an analogy - I can tell you it's too expensive for you to buy bread - then get legislation to require the price of bread to be $4M per loaf. It'll still only cost a few cents to mass produce. The execution itself should be infinitely cheaper than lifetime care. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #92 March 2, 2005 Quote Nuts, they make it expensive on purpose. Think old west - a rope, a gallows, and plain pine box. Compare that to minimal health care food and lodging and guards for 80 years. The REAL cost is somewhere in between. I would think that most of it goes to the court costs/appeals/etc. It would be interesting to see what the actual costs are. If life in prison were more expensive than CP, my opinion on CP would probably change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #93 March 2, 2005 QuoteQuote Nuts, they make it expensive on purpose. Think old west - a rope, a gallows, and plain pine box. Compare that to minimal health care food and lodging and guards for 80 years. The REAL cost is somewhere in between. I would think that most of it goes to the court costs/appeals/etc. But you get that anyway. Cut and dried cases shouldn't have to go through all that crap. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #94 March 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteNot one single state has produced a study showing it costs less to execute a convicted murderer than to imprison her for life. A whole bunch, including Florida, have produced studies showing it costs a whole lot more to execute than to imprison for life. It cost Illinois over $1.1Billion to be a death penalty state over a 25 year period, according to official state data. Nuts, they make it expensive on purpose. Think old west - a rope, a gallows, and plain pine box. Compare that to minimal health care food and lodging and guards for 80 years. The REAL cost is somewhere in between. edit: To simplify - you state exectue vs imprison for life - that's what's nuts. All the legal stuff/cost prior to that should be equivalent. If it's not, then that's the cause of any expense delta and what should be fixed, not the sentencing. The logic that it's too expensive is specious and a self-made argument. Here's an analogy - I can tell you it's too expensive for you to buy bread - then get legislation to require the price of bread to be $4M per loaf. It'll still only cost a few cents to mass produce. The execution itself should be infinitely cheaper than lifetime care. The reason it's expensive doesn't matter, it just IS, because that's the way the legal protections of our society have evolved. Societal evolution is against CP, history shows that. When was the last civilian judicial execution for a non-murder crime? CP willl eventually go away altogether in the US, just like it did in the civilized world.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #95 March 2, 2005 specious John "it just is" is a terrible discussion for someone who demands/desires change in some of the fundamental ways this country is run I've traveled enough, I feel as secure in the barbarism of this un civilized nation as in any other country in the 'civilized world' even more so most of the time (due to familiarity of course). But just in case, you should provide a specific list of the civilized countries - I really want to know. edit: BTW - glad you're back, we need a bit more biting humor here, it's become a bit somber at times. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #96 March 2, 2005 When it comes to capital punishment hardly anyone addresses the problem of executing innocent people. To me that alone is more than enough to switch all capital punishment to life without parole (the hard labor one) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #97 March 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteWell, it didn't take you long being admitted back into this forum once again, before you resumed playing your little irrelevant games. Is that necesary? I'm not aware of the reference, but it sounds like a metaphor to avoid having to drag out an explanation. If you're not aware of the background behind that statement, then why do you feel the necessity to comment upon it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #98 March 2, 2005 QuoteAt which university is John Lott a professor? Last I read he was at the AEI. I acknowledge this as your second attempt to hijack this thread with an off-topic subject. Apparently you didn't read what I said previously: "If you have some problem with Professor John Lott, start your own thread and state your case. "Hijacking this unrelated thread to vent your anger with John Lott is not the appropriate way to make your point." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #99 March 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteI haven't mentioned Professor John Lott in this forum since Jan. 14th, 2004 - over a year ago. Funny, this post is from January 17 2005... You are correct. I erred in my search by sorting by relevance rather than by posting date. QuoteHowever, you cannot argue one logic in one situation, and the opposite in another... However, that doesn't change the fact that discussion of John Lott here is off-topic. Start your own thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #100 March 2, 2005 Quotethe economic evidence against CP is very strong in comparison to any evidence showing that CP is a deterrent. Well heck, it would be even cheaper still if we just released all the criminals from prison so that we didn't have to support them at all. Fact is, cost is not a factor in determining justice. If the death penalty is deserved, it is deserved regardless of whatever it may cost in dollars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
