Ethical Hunting Pushing the Envelope

[steve1 5]

I guess I'm lucky. In Montana I can bowhunt early and later in the fall I can also rifle hunt. I find both challenging and rewarding. Either way I can fill my freezer with meat.....Steve1

[Zenister 0]

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No hunt can be "ensured". If you think that using a modern rifle ensures a kill, then you have obviously never been out in the woods trying to bag a deer during hunting season. Even with that modern tool, the deer still have the edge.

if you believe that then you have no skill at stalking (and therefore 'true hunting' at all.... (see attached.. taken at less than 20 m with a simply p&s camera.)

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Do you live in a cave? Or in a house with central heat and air and running water? Do you drive a car? Or do you walk to work wearing sandals hand-woven from reeds?***

no but i dont pretend some mystical connection with primitive man either

***Oh, and one more question: did you sew your own parachute? If you didn't raise your own silkworms, gather their silk strands, weave your own fabric, and sew your own parachute - then you're not a real skydiver - you're simply cheating yourself and the ideal of "skydiving".

Non Sequitur, try again.

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i'm not interested in 'how they die' so much as "what did you do to earn the badge of 'great white hunter'"

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How much skill do you exhibit when buying pre-packaged meat at the grocery store? Are you somehow superior to hunters because you pay a third party to do your killing for you?

none, no skill at all. But in fact the exact same ease of selection by those who think they 'earn' their kill by shooting it with a pre-manufactured weapon from their baited field and beer soaked stand...

but then i dont call myself a 'hunter', nor do i take pride in the simple slaughter of lesser beings by technological means i had no part in creating..

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[scdrnr 0]

Ironically, I believe that those who wax poetic about "leveling the playing field", and using only the most primitive tools while hunting are turning it into an arbitrary game.

If going to the grocery store to buy pre-packaged meat (or fresh produce and vegetables in the middle of winter in Colorado, for that matter) that was raised on a farm, killed and processed in a factory, and delivered in a freezer truck on an interstate highway is morally acceptable. Then so is hunting, no matter how you stack the odds.

I used to live in a part of Alaska where hunting actually was less effort than going to the nearest grocery store, and I had no moral qualms with making it as easy and convenient as possible. These days I mostly go to the store, but when I do hunt, I believe the extra effort is worth the satisfaction of having the freshest, most organic, free-range meat possible. Others would rather just pay twice as much to have the the label in the store say the same thing. I think killing it and cleaning it myself gives me a little more appreciation for where it all actually comes from, even if I didn't use rocks or a bow.

Getting wound up about morals or effort is a suburban hunters game. I never met a true subsistence hunter who didn't prefer to use rifles, snowmobiles, gore-tex etc.

As far as the fenced in internet killing, I don't think that has anything to do with hunting. It is a completely seperate matter. If killing for mere amusement is the purpose, than I agree, I would rather see it done gladiator style.

[craddock 0]

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Ironically, I believe that those who wax poetic about "leveling the playing field", and using only the most primitive tools while hunting are turning it into an arbitrary game.

What I also find funny is that many people who despise hunting use reasons that contradict his. I have heard it so many times before from uneducated anti-hunting people that the poor animal suffers to much from poor shots, ect. and animals are wounded and die later most of the time.
Now here is someone who wants us to beat our prey to death, and has admitted he hopes we lose? If we do win, it sure is not going to be a quick death. Furthermore I love Venison, so much as it's not from a deer that has struggled for it's life and has a lot of adrenaline in its tissue. I am also not real fond of a huge rutting buck that is all swollen if I am going to make steaks out of it.
Beating an animal to death with a club would be nothing but a sport to me, as it would leave me with a less then desirable product if I succeded.
To compare Venison to Arby's makes it clear that he has never tasted properly selected, harvested, and prepared Venison.(many people have not, even some that have hunted for years). Nor is he aware of the health benefits of a Venison steak over the highly Fatty beef that he thinks we should be buying instead.
Don't get me wrong, I have a freezer full of beef also, but he would be happy to know that I purchase that Cow already dead.

Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Zenister 0]

you are confirming my point... if you are not hunting for survival it IS a game, a sport, something you do for entertainment, not existence.

that is the fundamental difference.. it could be compared to someone with pretensions as a fine chef and yet uses preprepared sauces, meats and ingredients..

someone else far removed from the action (the weapon manufacturer in the case of hunting) has already done what you could not achieve with your own abilities. Yet modern 'hunters' pretend they have exercised some skill and cunning in the simply pull of a trigger... no effort, no personal energy required to kill and only slightly removed from those who do so from the comfort of their own home via a robotic interface and a simple mouse click...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

you miss the point entirely... it isnt the animals suffering that i am concerned with at all, it is dead either way...it is the means by which you earn the life you take that matters...

use YOUR energy, your means and skills to kill your prey. Your mind and tracking abilities and the force of your muscle. not the technological advances you could never reproduce without a modern industrial complex to support your 'sport'

oh wait.. you've just stated you want a nice clean kill without any struggle... if the taste of the meat and the lack of adrenilen in the muscle is your concern then the farm raised deer shot remotely without any awareness of their impending doom should be right up your alley.

its quite obvious you want all the benifits of a skill ful hunter, with none of the actual effort... so much easier to let Browning do all the hard work for you...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[scdrnr 0]

I'm not a trophy hunter, but I would like to note that many endangered species have been saved by trophy hunting. I don't know too many "eco-tourists" who would be willing to pay $15,000 to take a photo of an elephant, but trophy hunters will pay that much for a tag. In many instances, that license fee is the only thing that makes it economically feasible to maintain a suitable habitat. Trophy hunters aren't making these animals disapear, humans are continually displacing them from their habitat, through development.

[craddock 0]

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Yet modern 'hunters' pretend they have exercised some skill and cunning in the simply pull of a trigger... no effort, no personal energy required to kill and only slightly removed from those who do so from the comfort of their own home via a robotic interface and a simple mouse click

First read my last post and second you have not a fucking clue what you talk about. I spend several weekends at my cabin prior to the season to scout the derr habits to try and ensure a chance to harvest a deer. Then I go out in the woods in the middle of the dark, which I do not enjoy, wait for sunrise, and possibly spend all day in the Rain, snow, or wind to never see a thing. If I am lucky enough to bag a deer, then the work has just began. Field dressing, draggin the deer out of the woods and getting it back to the cabin and then what? I have to skin, quarter, debone, and steak out the entire deer. All of which is alot of work and takes quite sometime. This is just for one deer which is not enough meat to last that long, so I attempt to shoot several a year.
Where can you buy Venison in your part of the country? I will eat Venison over beef anyday for the health benefits and twice as much again for the taste.
You can keep your Arby's. Youreally don't have a clue what your talking about on this subject and that is not meant as in insult, but rather that you should attempt to gain some knowledge on the subject first. Adeer beaten to death is not going to be a deer to eat!

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Zenister 0]

you should do some research.. trophy hunting has already driven multiple species into extinction... the pitance paid by modern trophy hunters does little to support the few that remain and their decreasing habitats..

your children will never see a tiger in the wild and there are species of tiger and other large cats that no one still living has ever seen even in zoos.

trophy hunters killed them, with mass hunts and the simple pull of a trigger from a nice safe distance.

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[scdrnr 0]

Then I guess we have no argument, since I never felt special or particularly clever for hunting, I simply prefer it to store bought when I have the time and am willing to take the effort. (Two people making two trips to pack out an elk on foot for 8 miles is work!) Most of us today only survive through the miracle of modern science and technology, myself included. But I do think the average rifle hunter would be better off in the woods with no gun, than the average consumer would be.

[craddock 0]

No energy? no struggle?

I am not so sure you could handle the struggle or energy required to harvest a deer. The part my rifle or bow does is just one tiny element of hunting.
How do you think this supposed farm raised deer you can purchase dies? By what means is it's life ended?
Can I buy farm raise grouse and pheasant already harvested for me to?

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Zenister 0]

beaten to death?

please.. better work on the reading skils as well and drop your ignorant assumptions..

so simple slaughter and skinning an animal is what you call 'hunting' skill? all the while you rely on the advances of gunsmiths to do the real work of killing? pathetic...

the long hours of waiting you have to put in are created BECAUSE it is so simple for skillless 'sportsmen' like yourself to get within 200 yds (often by baiting a feild and then drinking themselves into a stupor in their stands) and kill a deer with a simple twitch of the finger..

pick up a manual weapon, one driven and controlled by the force of your arm, not chemical action of a substance and weapon you likely dont really understand and could NEVER reproduce on your own and THEN stalk for 3 days, learn how to predict the path of your prey and its patterns.. then stand completely still for 2+ hours and draw painfully slowly and hold for another 10 min while your quarry draws near enough for the one instant where you will have a clear clean shot...

never mind... obviously your completely dependant on your rifle.. good thing you can go buy it across the street from the grocery store...

maybe you should just admit you lack the abilities to provide for yourself without the weapon and ammo you bought in kmart..

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[scdrnr 0]

I agree that in the past, trophy hunting did lead to extinction/endangerment. I was refering to modern times, where mere human existance is a bigger threat to wildlife than managed hunting.

[Zenister 0]

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No energy? no struggle?

I am not so sure you could handle the struggle or energy required to harvest a deer. The part my rifle or bow does is just one tiny element of hunting.
How do you think this supposed farm raised deer you can purchase dies? By what means is it's life ended?
Can I buy farm raise grouse and pheasant already harvested for me to?

your ignorance is showing...i grew up in a hunting culture, and have seen first hand exactly how much 'skill' it requires..I shot my first deer around age 8, field dressed under supervision and was required to carried the bulk of it out myself ("you shot it, you carry it"). None of which is very difficult, and all far to easy when an adolescent can do the same task as a full grown adult. I also have 2 cousins who are game wardens in the south east, so i have a VERY good idea of how much effort and energy is required and how the majority of 'hunters' conduct themselves...some of the things i've been told about are simply sickening... and yet just like you they all believe they are exercising skill and pretend they different from those who buy their meat in the store....

but oh yea.. pat yourself on the back next time Browning kills a deer for you and pretend you have some 'mad skills'.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[craddock 0]

You are an ...

There are laws in place in how we can bag a deer. I would love to see you hunt with your methods so you could get caught and your ass thrown in jail. You have a lot of nerve telling us we should break the law. I hunt with a bow during bow season, a rifle during rifle season(most shots are still less than 20 yards). A shotgun during shotgun season, or a muzzleloader during muzzleloading season. Where to you live that you would not be in violation of the law by using a spear?

Oh wait I forgot, The other point you are trying to make is I should give up Venison, Grouse, Pheasant, all of which I love in favor of less healthy and flavorful store bought products.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[steve1 5]

I hate to see hunters arguing among themselves. Everyone is different and that doesn't make them wrong. If one hunts purely to meat in the freezer that's fine. If one wants to extend his hunting season by holding out for a trophy, I can't see anything wrong with that either. If someone hunts with either a rifle or bow, why not? The enemy isn't each other, it's the anti-hunters who are trying to take our sport away from us....Steve1

[billvon 3,073]

>please.. better work on the reading skils as well and drop your ignorant assumptions..

The traditional one warning.

[Kennedy 0]

You really need to get over the idea of beer soaked morons populating tree stands. Most hunters, even the ones whose methods you despise, are decent, ethical folk. Baiting deer is illegal in most if not all areas. Drinking and handling firearms, well it's not illegal everywhere, but I don't shed a tear when they become Darwin nominees.

Just because a LEO can tell you stories about members of a group doesn't mean the entire group is guilty. That's the same logic gun banners use when they call for infringements. That's the logic politicians use when they decide they know better than you what's good for you. That's the logic bad cops use. That's the logic racists and bigots use. (etc etc etc)

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pat yourself on the back next time Browning kills a deer for you and pretend you have some 'mad skills'.

That sounds dangerously like gun banners claiming that guns kill, and that the trigger pulls the finger instead of vice versa.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[JohnRich 4]

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No hunt can be "ensured". If you think that using a modern rifle ensures a kill, then you have obviously never been out in the woods trying to bag a deer during hunting season. Even with that modern tool, the deer still have the edge.

if you believe that then you have no skill at stalking (and therefore 'true hunting' at all...

You must be taking hunting lessons from John Kerry, who claims he slithers around on his belly. The fact is, hardly anyone "stalks" deer, because their senses are so keen you would always lose. The standard method for deer hunting is to sit still, and wait for one to walk by you within range.

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How much skill do you exhibit when buying pre-packaged meat at the grocery store? Are you somehow superior to hunters because you pay a third party to do your killing for you?

none, no skill at all. But in fact the exact same ease of selection by those who think they 'earn' their kill by shooting it with a pre-manufactured weapon from their baited field and beer soaked stand...

Hunting and killing game is much more difficult than grocery shopping. And most hunters don't use bait, nor drink while hunting.

It appears that your view of hunting is unrealistic, uncharacteristic, and slanted towards the negative stereotype. You shouldn't be judging an activity based upon that kind of a sample. This betrays your bias.

[JohnRich 4]

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someone else far removed from the action (the weapon manufacturer in the case of hunting) has already done what you could not achieve with your own abilities. Yet modern 'hunters' pretend they have exercised some skill and cunning in the simply pull of a trigger... no effort, no personal energy required to kill...

You don't know what you're talking about.

The gun manufacturere did not study the terrain to find a suitable hunting location. He did not hike in the woods and study tracks in snow to find game trails before hunting season. He did not zero my rifle sights at different distances using a particular brand of ammo, so I would know how to shoot accurately at different distances. He didn't get up in the middle of the night, hike into the woods in freezing weather to a vantage point. He did not sit for hours in the snow, shivering, waiting and hoping for the quarry to walk by at sunrise. He did not aim the firearm, with the appropriate hold-over/under, windage and lead for the shot. He did not control his excitement and force himself to concentrate and squeeze the trigger slowly. He did not cut open the belly and reach in with both hands to pull out a large glob of guts, to field dress the animal. He did not drag 200 lbs. of deer through a mile of snow and hills to get it back to the truck.

As easy as grocery shopping? Only in your freakin' dreams.

[rehmwa 2]

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Hunting and killing game is much more difficult than grocery shopping. And most hunters don't use bait, nor drink while hunting.

Next time I go grocery shopping, I'm drinking and using bait. Might be fun.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnRich 4]

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use YOUR energy, your means and skills to kill your prey. Your mind and tracking abilities and the force of your muscle. not the technological advances you could never reproduce without a modern industrial complex to support your 'sport'

This, coming from a skydiver, who depends upon exactly the thing he criticizes, every time he jumps out of a plane...

[JohnRich 4]

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I'm not a trophy hunter, but I would like to note that many endangered species have been saved by trophy hunting. I don't know too many "eco-tourists" who would be willing to pay $15,000 to take a photo of an elephant, but trophy hunters will pay that much for a tag.

Correct. And America's 20 million hunters and 6 million target shooters annually fund more than 75% of the cost of wildlife management in the U.S. through license fees and excise taxes.

The very people he criticizes, are the ones providing for the habitat, survival and health of the wild animals.

[Zenister 0]

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use YOUR energy, your means and skills to kill your prey. Your mind and tracking abilities and the force of your muscle. not the technological advances you could never reproduce without a modern industrial complex to support your 'sport'

This, coming from a skydiver, who depends upon exactly the thing he criticizes, every time he jumps out of a plane...

the difference is i'm not using the tools generated by that industrial complex to take another life... you are and yet you still pretend the effort and energy is your own.. maybe if I claimed it was my ability that got me to altitude you have a point but as is its just a silly analogy…

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The fact is, hardly anyone "stalks" deer, because their senses are so keen you would always lose. The standard method for deer hunting is to sit still, and wait for one to walk by you within range.

oh yea.. i suppose i didnt follow the fresh tracks of that deer for nearly 2 hours to get close enough to take that picture either? All the while having to worry about assholes who cant/wont confirm their target (because the rifles they barely understand let them shoot at anything that moves with a decent chance of killing it)

the 'standard method' you describe is to sit out by well known animal trails outside of the animals usual sense range/sphere then use a modern weapon to perform the actual work, and exactly the reason why its becoming harder to hunt every year... its so easy a child can do it...

i'm judging based on years of growing up inside a hunting culture, having to deal with the egotistical assholes who are so proud of their 'skills' they cant be bothered to wash the blood off the hood of their truck (that they drove illegally up through the woods to avoid having to walk a few extra miles) before school monday morning... i'm judging by the real stories i hear EVERY YEAR at family reunions about hunters killing underage animals on protected land...and leaving the remains of the party they brought with them as evidence.. i'm judging on the increasingly longer distances the lack of prey forces you to go nowdays and the long waiting lists it takes to even gain access to some sites all because picking up a gun in kmart and shooting any animal that walks by is considered 'hunting'... many of these 'hunters' dont even bother to police their shells and leave all of their trash behind and continue to ruin the environment for EVERYONE that uses it...

responsible 'hunters' are the minority.. those who actually have the enough respect for their prey to not rely on the invention and technology developed by another to take the life they feel is their 'right' are even rarer...

sure, you pulled the trigger... but Browning made it possible for that incredibly easy action to be considered 'skillful 'hunting'. All the simple shooting skills you describe can be easily exercised at any firing range....or by an 8 year old out in the woods with dad and uncle.....

but continue to believe you've done something special...

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The gun manufacturere did not study the terrain to find a suitable hunting location. He did not hike in the woods and study tracks in snow to find game trails before hunting season. He did not zero my rifle sights at different distances using a particular brand of ammo, so I would know how to shoot accurately at different distances. He didn't get up in the middle of the night, hike into the woods in freezing weather to a vantage point. He did not sit for hours in the snow, shivering, waiting and hoping for the quarry to walk by at sunrise. He did not aim the firearm, with the appropriate hold-over/under, windage and lead for the shot. He did not control his excitement and force himself to concentrate and squeeze the trigger slowly. He did not cut open the belly and reach in with both hands to pull out a large glob of guts, to field dress the animal. He did not drag 200 lbs. of deer through a mile of snow and hills to get it back to the truck.

1 mile?? you say that like its a distance or something. exactly how lazy are you?? 1 mile? and bring a bow next time… see how many deer you get… and see how much closer you have to be… then come back and tell me YOU did the actual work instead of your rifle…

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[billvon 3,073]

>you have not a fucking clue what you talk about.

(and Zen said)

>exactly how lazy are you?

Both of you cut it out.