Abortion (thread split from Canadian hunting thread)

[kmcguffee 0]

Quote

Just about every Christian church calls itself "Catholic".

No they don't. I don't know of any Protestant Churches that call themselves Catholic. Sourthern Baptist, Methodist, and Pentecostal definitely do not. I know these from first hand knowledge. Whenever someone refers to a Catholic they are normally referring to the Roman Catholic Church.

Quote

I reject completely the notion that the bodies of women (or anyone else for that matter) should be controlled by the wishes of the Pope or any other religious despot/shaman/witch doctor.

But a scientist would be fine?

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

Quote

Just about every Christian church calls itself "Catholic".

No they don't. I don't know of any Protestant Churches that call themselves Catholic. Sourthern Baptist, Methodist, and Pentecostal definitely do not. I know these from first hand knowledge. Whenever someone refers to a Catholic they are normally referring to the Roman Catholic Church.

The creed of most protestants refers to "the holy catholic church", see, for example, the Episcopalian and Lutheran and Methodist, and Evangelical Baptist . Calvinist and Wesleyans also say the same thing, they all refer to themselves as CATHOLIC. They are all pretty much protestant last time I checked. Sorry, but that's the way it is. (Pentecostals, rejecting most orthodoxy, seem to reject creeds too).

Quote

Quote

I reject completely the notion that the bodies of women (or anyone else for that matter) should be controlled by the wishes of the Pope or any other religious despot/shaman/witch doctor.

But a scientist would be fine?

No. A woman should not have to answer to anyone else. Not even you.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kmcguffee 0]

Quote

The creed of most protestants refers to "the holy catholic church"

Refering to "the holy catholic church" in their creed is different from calling itself "Catholic" as you said here:

Quote

Just about every Christian church calls itself "Catholic".

Quote

No. A woman should not have to answer to anyone else. Not even you.

Just checking.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[DrunkMonkey 0]

I have to say, Chuteless really knows how to troll. Post something inflammatory, disappear...

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

Just about every Christian church calls itself "Catholic".

You can call yourself whatever you want, it doesn't make it so.

From now on I will refer to myself as African-American. My skin is white and as far back as I can trace my ancestry, there is no African blood in me. But, I've decided I want to be African American for now. Who knows, maybe I'll try Asian in a few weeks.

Religious affiliation is not a birthright. You either accept the teachings of a particular religion or you find a religion that fits your personal beliefs. That's how all the Protestant faiths were formed.

The reason Pro-Lifers are not going to back down from their beliefs (and they are not all Catholic) is because we truly believe that life begins at conception and that there is a seperate and unique soul. We believe that no human has the right to end that life. This is our faith and we are entitled to it.

As for the statement Bottellines makes above about his belief that if Catholic or any pro-life men had to die also, if a woman dies in childbirth they would be more tolerant. My answer to that is that he seriously underestimates the strength and courage of a man who posess the faith that life begins at conception.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

Just a simple hypothetical question for you guys...if I, as a woman, have to choose to lose my life by giving life or decide to terminate to save my own life..now what do you think?

_________________________________________

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

Quote

Just about every Christian church calls itself "Catholic".

You can call yourself whatever you want, it doesn't make it so.

Typical arrogance of the Roman church. "Catholic" means universal.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

Just about every Christian church calls itself "Catholic".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You can call yourself whatever you want, it doesn't make it so.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Typical arrogance of the Roman church. "Catholic" means universal.

Now you're arguing semantics. I think it is pretty arrogant of you to try to trivialize a person's faith.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

Just a simple hypothetical question for you guys...if I, as a woman, have to choose to lose my life by giving life or decide to terminate to save my own life..now what do you think?

It's no-one's business but yours. Not mine, not Muenkel's, not the Roman Pope's, not George Bush's business. Just yours.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

Quote

Quote

Just a simple hypothetical question for you guys...if I, as a woman, have to choose to lose my life by giving life or decide to terminate to save my own life..now what do you think?

It's no-one's business but yours. Not mine, not Muenkel's, not the Roman Pope's, not George Bush's business. Just yours.

I agree. It's a tough emotional and lifelong traumatic decision to make..and that's why I'm having a hard time understanding what religion has to do with it?
perhaps I'm misunderstanding the posts on here but it seems to me that many feel it's irresponsibility when one gets pregnant and they decide "ugh I'm not ready for this" and they decide to terminate..it isn't that cut and dry or black and white. That's only ignorance and naiivity of persons who see it that way.
I dunno which God others believe in, but my God loves me unconditionally and has throughout my life..he has been there for me through my most joyful times and toughest times. I believe that's why I'm still "here"..cuz he isn't done with me yet. But I know without any doubt, that when I'm done with my purpose here, it's time to go and it'll be a lot better off than here.

_________________________________________

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

Quote

Just about every Christian church calls itself "Catholic".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You can call yourself whatever you want, it doesn't make it so.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Typical arrogance of the Roman church. "Catholic" means universal.

Now you're arguing semantics. I think it is pretty arrogant of you to try to trivialize a person's faith.

Chris

Believe whatever myths you like, that's your privilege. Don't corrupt the English language with your myths, though. Catholic means "universal" and protestants are just as entitled to use it in their creed as are you.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

It's no-one's business but yours. Not mine, not Muenkel's, not the Roman Pope's, not George Bush's business. Just yours.

This statement I agree with. I will not however stop praying for the end of abortion.

BTW, you're using your apostrophes incorrectly...just to keep things light.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[Nightingale 0]

Most people who are pro-choice would love to see the end of abortion as well. I know I mentioned in a thread a while back about my friend who went to planned parenthood for pills... she asked if they do abortions, and the doctor said no (most planned parenthood clinics don't) but they will refer. She added that if my friend came back asking about an abortion that it means that the doctor didn't do her job by educating my friend about how not to get pregnant in the first place. This attitude is fairly typical in my experience. Even people who believe that women should have a choice about abortion aren't "pro-abortion". They are pro choice, meaning that a woman should have a choice to terminate or to give birth... her choice. However, the majority of pro-choice people support strong educational programs so abortions won't be necessary except in the rarest of circumstances.

[gjhdiver 0]

Quote

I respectfully disagree with your entire post.

Chris

Presumably because having supertsition once again trounced by logic, you've come to end of your argument ?

[gjhdiver 0]

Quote

As for the statement Bottellines makes above about his belief that if Catholic or any pro-life men had to die also, if a woman dies in childbirth they would be more tolerant. My answer to that is that he seriously underestimates the strength and courage of a man who posess the faith that life begins at conception.

Chris

It doesn't take either strength or courage to push women around. In fact quite the opposite.

[Maggotry 0]

Quote

Now you're arguing semantics. I think it is pretty arrogant of you to try to trivialize a person's faith.

Chris

It'spretty arrogant to force feed your own personal beliefs down the throats of other sentient beings, too.

I mean fine. You're Catholic. You and your brethren don't do the abortion thing. All is cool with me.

But when you start messing around with nonbelievers, heretics and heathens that's when the coolness stops.

We don't piss in your house, you don't piss in ours, that's kinda the peace deal we have. You do your thing and let us do our thing and everything is fine.

Don't let your personal faith invade the privacy of other sentient beings. That your faith is organized and wide spread adds nothing in terms of validity in the eyes of heathens. Your faith is just that, your own. Only you will stand accountable for your actions. You are the one who will be judged. You aren't the judge.

Let others do their thing; they too will be judged, in this life or the hereafter.

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

I respectfully disagree with your entire post.

Chris

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Presumably because having supertsition once again trounced by logic, you've come to end of your argument ?

No I haven't, so you have presumed wrong.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

Now you're arguing semantics. I think it is pretty arrogant of you to try to trivialize a person's faith.

Chris

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It'spretty arrogant to force feed your own personal beliefs down the throats of other sentient beings, too.

I mean fine. You're Catholic. You and your brethren don't do the abortion thing. All is cool with me.

But when you start messing around with nonbelievers, heretics and heathens that's when the coolness stops.

We don't piss in your house, you don't piss in ours, that's kinda the peace deal we have. You do your thing and let us do our thing and everything is fine.

Don't let your personal faith invade the privacy of other sentient beings. That your faith is organized and wide spread adds nothing in terms of validity in the eyes of heathens. Your faith is just that, your own. Only you will stand accountable for your actions. You are the one who will be judged. You aren't the judge.

Let others do their thing; they too will be judged, in this life or the hereafter.

It is my understanding that in Speaker's Corner we are all entitled to post our beliefs as long as we remain within the rules of this site.

As far as 'pissing in your house', it is my understanding that this is HH's house and his guests include people of all different faiths. We are a very diverse group in that manner, which is what makes it interesting.

As for judgement, I agree with you completely. I have never passed judgement on anyone and do firmly believe that I will stand alone before God and account for my actions and omissions. Just because I oppose abortion does not mean I am condeming anyone who doesn't to hell. Passing judgement on others is considered to be a very serious sin in the Catholic faith.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[GTAVercetti 0]

Quote

Quote

Definitely not the Pope's or George Bush's business.

The Pope speaks for the Catholic Church. He is not a politician, but the head of a specific religion.

If you are not a practising Catholic, then what the Pope says is none of your business.

As for President Bush, he has just as much right to voice his opinion on an issue as any other politician.

Chris

If you honestly believe that the Pope and the Vatican have no (or ever had any) influence over politics, then you are truly naive. The Pope may be the head of a church but he is also the head of a country. The Roman Catholic Church (and for the record, none of my episcopal, lutheran or whatever friends have every refered to themeselves as Catholics) had (and in some places still has) a HUGE influence on politics. It may be under the veil of "holy" advice, but it is pushes policy regardless.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

(and for the record, none of my episcopal, lutheran or whatever friends have every refered to themeselves as Catholics) .

If Episcopalians, Anglicans, Lutherans etc. went to confirmation classes where they had to learn and recite the creed of their church, they will have called their church "the holy catholic church".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GTAVercetti 0]

Quote

Quote

(and for the record, none of my episcopal, lutheran or whatever friends have every refered to themeselves as Catholics) .

If Episcopalians, Anglicans, Lutherans etc. went to confirmation classes where they had to learn and recite the creed of their church, they will have called their church "the holy catholic church".

Yes, I know. I was not pointing out the similarities in the prayer or creed. I was refering to how people think of themselves. When someone asks an Lutheran what denomination they are, they do not usually say, "I am a Catholic." They say, "I am Luthera.n"

As was pointed out, catholic was meant to refer to the universial church of Christianity. When the schism occurred, each faction believed they were the true "universal" church. However, by today's standards, when we say Catholic, we are refering to the Roman Catholic Church.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

If you honestly believe that the Pope and the Vatican have no (or ever had any) influence over politics, then you are truly naive.

I am not saying that at all. All I am saying is the Pope is obligated to the teachings of the Catholic Church and will tell that to any politician who asks. On the issue of abortion specifically, the Pope spoke with Pres. Clinton about it and the President respectfully disagreed as he has his own position on the issue. In regard to President Bush, I'm sure the Pope and he had more common ground in regard to their beliefs.

I am fully aware that history is filled with moments where religion ruled and not democracy. This is true with many religions, not just the Catholic religion.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[Maggotry 0]

Quote

It is my understanding that in Speaker's Corner we are all entitled to post our beliefs as long as we remain within the rules of this site.

Yeah, my points wasn't about posts on this forum but rather general behavior. People act according to their beliefs and those are expressed here.

What I'm saying is that you can tell a Catholic girl it's wrong to have an abortion, pretty much without passing judgement on her but rather just stating a fact since you have the same or close to the same religious values. You interpret an action according to the same rule book so to speak.

But if you take your rules, your faith and start applying it to people who just don't believe, then you're passing judgement. You're in essence saying that your beliefs trumph those of the other person. They're more right. Would you have a problem with your values somehow being enforced on the whole population?

Quote

As far as 'pissing in your house', it is my understanding that this is HH's house and his guests include people of all different faiths. We are a very diverse group in that manner, which is what makes it interesting.

Again, my comments weren't about this forum. It was about the issue at hand. HH is Da King here - he's puttting up a free service we may use at his discretion and he should be commended for it.

I'm just saying that if you push your beliefs on me (or more generically, if the Catholic values are pushed on non Catholics) you're in for a fight. I'm not gonna stand back and let sugared up version of the Inquisition/Sharia/whatever gonna happen. Dude, we simply have spent too much blood trying to ensure diversity is possible to just have it removed.

***
As for judgement, I agree with you completely. I have never passed judgement on anyone and do firmly believe that I will stand alone before God and account for my actions and omissions. Just because I oppose abortion does not mean I am condeming anyone who doesn't to hell. Passing judgement on others is considered to be a very serious sin in the Catholic faith.

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

I'm just saying that if you push your beliefs on me (or more generically, if the Catholic values are pushed on non Catholics) you're in for a fight.

First, how am I pushing my beliefs on you. This is simply a discussion on a specific topic.

Second, would you prefer that the Catholics of dz.com not post their beliefs?

I am not pushing my faith on anyone, but I certainly will never deny it.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[rickjump1 0]

Quote

However, the majority of pro-choice people support strong educational programs so abortions won't be necessary except in the rarest of circumstances.

Maybe the ultrasound machine will be included in strong education programs.
79% of the women who viewed their baby on an ultrasound machine decided to keep the baby. Focus on the Family is trying to equip Pregnancy Resourse Centers with these machines.http://www.family.org/pregnancy/ultrasound/

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.