DEA agent shoots himself in foot while giving a gun safety talk in school

[justinb138 0]

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Because of the way he handled himself the entire time including but not limited to shooting himself.

The second he walked into a classroom full of kids with loaded firearms he went from expert to idiot.

[craddock 0]

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assumption 1: it's always loaded. Check it everytime you pick it up, if its been out of your sight since the last time you checked it.

I am not going to argue this past this response and sidetrack the thread but I have always thought this to be a very dumb idea for people knowledgeble with guns

I NEVER assume a gun is loaded. If unsure I treat it as if it were and then check it. It is Very simple to be sure a gun is unloaded. Never Assume.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[billvon 3,070]

>The second he walked into a classroom full of kids with loaded firearms
>he went from expert to idiot.

Interesting. So anyone who carries a loaded weapon into a classroom is an idiot? From what I've seen as elementary schools around the country, you just called a lot of cops idiots.

[craddock 0]

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The "Eddie the Eagle" program from the NRA is a good one. But, ya know, I'd've thought that a law enforcement professional who agreed to give a talk on gun safety might just be qualified also. And that they might be mature enough to suggest someone else if they're not.

Where are you getting this info from? Are you suggesting this was part of that program? If you know facts why will you not share them? I don't know who this guy is or why he was there. Excuse me for trying to find out.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[wmw999 2,534]

No, I'm just suggesting that is another source of a "gun safety expert." But one that might carry more potential political baggage than a law enforcement professional.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[justinb138 0]

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>The second he walked into a classroom full of kids with loaded firearms
>he went from expert to idiot.

Interesting. So anyone who carries a loaded weapon into a classroom is an idiot? From what I've seen as elementary schools around the country, you just called a lot of cops idiots.

I didn't say that. We're talking about someone (your "expert") teaching about gun safety. I don't see why it would be necessary to have loaded firearm(s). It would only be an unneccessary risk (which obviously didn't turn out well).

[craddock 0]

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Edited to add - quite why they allowed an "undercover" agent to be filmed in the first place is also lost on me

Can someone please point me to a source of where this info is coming from? The only thing I have seen was a caption claiming this guy was a DEA agent, and then the "undercover" agent with a POLICE t-shirt on

Where did this happen at? There seems to be a better source of info than what I have seen as I have no idea who this guy was

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Zenister 0]

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assumption 1: it's always loaded. Check it everytime you pick it up, if its been out of your sight since the last time you checked it.

I am not going to argue this past this response and sidetrack the thread but I have always thought this to be a very dumb idea for people knowledgeble with guns

I NEVER assume a gun is loaded. If unsure I treat it as if it were and then check it. It is Very simple to be sure a gun is unloaded. Never Assume.

i love people who make comments they dont want to defend.. its a thread in the SC, it drifts, get over it....

when you 'assume' a gun is loaded, you treat it as if it is until you check it... therefore any gun you havent checked (since you last saw it) IS loaded, and can kill you.

By way of example... you unload a gun and place it on a table behind you.. 10 min later someone picks up that gun (unseen by you) and points it at you. Are you going to think 'its not loaded, i unloaded it when i set it down' and then try to take it from him?

doing exactly that has caused two shootings i am aware of, and very likely more...

you may know how to handle a gun, but (unless its been in sight the whole time) you have NO IDEA what has happened to that gun since the last time you checked it....

using that rule prevents alot of unfortunate accidents..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[shropshire 0]

Wow.... Expert or not ... who the hell thought that it was O.K to take a loaded gun into a class room?

He didn't need live rounds to teach gun safety, surely?

Boy, his mates will NEVER stop raging him

.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[AggieDave 6]

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This is not something any gun proponent likes to admit, but guns are dangerous, and if you make a mistake with them, they can injure or kill you. And everyone - even experts, even you - can make mistakes.

Ok, when have I ever stated that firearms aren't deserving of a tremindous amount of respect when being handled? Infact the exact opposite has been stated by myself a good number of times. Since I'm what you would call a "gun proponent" (I call myself someone who doesn't like to see a constitutional right taken away), I thought I would state that I'm not a fan of complete stereotyping as you just did.

On the flip side, as I just got back in the house I still have my .45 holstered on my hip. It is in its constant condition: loaded, chambered, hammer back and safety on. I know this and keep this weapon in this condition at all times. If a friend comes over and asks to see this weapon (or any weapon I own) I drop the magazine (if one was in) and lock open the slide visually inspecting the chamber and I touch the open chamber where the round would be if it was stuck.

A couple of days ago a friend brought some of his handgun collection over to show me, each weapon he handed to me I either poped open the cylinder to check for rounds (revolver) or I did as described above. Never assume. Good thing to, since he handed me a weapon he thought to be unloaded and it still had a round in the chamber. It proved my process and gave him a rude wake up (the color drained from his face when I ejected the round).



The point is, you can handle weapons safely, you do have to treat each weapon with the up most respect and simply assume that its loaded. If you assume its loaded then you always check it properly before handling it.

What the guy in this incident did was asinine, he broke proceedure on handling a weapon, he didn't do things in the proper order. Sort of like someone pulling the reserve handle before cutting away a lineover.



Anyways, since this thread is most likely going to simply degrade into the same discussion that the folks on DZ.com have had many times over (myself included)...instead of sticking to what the thread is really about: proper training, assumptions and breaking proper proceedure when handling a weapon.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[cvfd1399 0]

I was refering to the rules of firearms,
-Do not point your weapon anything you do not intend to destroy.

I also practice trigger control at home(good idea), but I do point it at the floor in a safe direction. I have NEVER pulled the trigger empty or loaded while aimed at a BODY part I hope you do the same.

[Zenister 0]

good point Dave, and something else i forgot to add... assume its loaded no matter who hands it to you...

i got chewed out about this a few times..

me:"but dad just checked it..."
granddad: "did you?"
me:"uh..."

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[AndyMan 7]

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Ok, when have I ever stated that firearms aren't deserving of a tremindous amount of respect when being handled? I

You haven't, but Ron has.

In one of the more ludicrous posts I've seen, he insisted that "Guns are not dangerous." http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1177889;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC#1178874.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[AggieDave 6]

Good for Ron.

Want me to start digging up stuff that liberals state to prove my points as well about something you did or did not say?

It has no bearing in what I said, since I was talking about what I have said and not said here on DZ.com.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 3,070]

>Ok, when have I ever stated that firearms aren't deserving of a
>tremindous amount of respect when being handled?

I have never seen you state that. A great many gun proponents, however, become incensed when one points out that a gun can hurt you as well as help you, and can kill you as quickly as it can kill an attacker if mistakes are made handling them.

>On the flip side, as I just got back in the house I still have my .45
> holstered on my hip.

I have no doubt you take as much care with your gun as you take when you are skydiving. In skydiving, you can make a mistake and kill yourself and/or your student; we all accept that risk every time we jump out of a plane. From what you've written, you accept the same sort of risk from carrying a gun.

Unfortunately, from what others have written, they either do not accept the risk or don't even believe the risk exists.

After seeing my second fatality, I was suprised at how many people decided the guy was an idiot. "He should have known better." "What a jackass." Yet the guy made a mistake that these jumpers had made several times; he just didn't get away with it. The reason he died was that skydiving is a dangerous sport, and even a minor mistake can injure or kill you. By saying "he was an idiot" the other jumpers on the DZ could tell themselves "that can't happen to me because I am not an idiot!" Ironically, those jumpers are the ones more likely to _get_ hurt in the future, because they don't realize that they have to be careful to avoid exactly the same fate.

[craddock 0]

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Unfortunately, from what others have written, they either do not accept the risk or don't even believe the risk exists.

The reason he died was that skydiving is a dangerous sport, and even a minor mistake can injure or kill you. By saying "he was an idiot" the other jumpers on the DZ could tell themselves "that can't happen to me because I am not an idiot!" Ironically, those jumpers are the ones more likely to _get_ hurt in the future, because they don't realize that they have to be careful to avoid exactly the same fate.

There is a big difference between let's just say swooping and this idiot.
If does not matter if you are the dummest fuck around or highly intelligent. It does not matter how accurate you can shoot or how talented you are in any area. If you drop the mag. and clear the chamber before using it as a visual aid, you are just as safe as the next person.
In skydiving there is always going to be a wide range of talent and skill level. With Gun safety it is more about following the proper steps to insure safety than how talanted you are. You can be legally blind and of very low intelligence with and no legs and no thumbs and still be excellent with gun safety. Everyone who owns a gun should be, it's that easy.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Jimbo 0]

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>A gun in the hands of someone who is trained properly, and handles
> a weapon safely, is much more likely to protect than cause harm.

Not always the case, as we have seen here.

Actually, yes in this case. The DEA agent(s) was/is trained, but failed to handle the weapon safely.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[billvon 3,070]

>There is a big difference between let's just say swooping and this idiot.

I had a feeling the next post would be "it's completely different!"

>If does not matter if you are the dummest fuck around or highly
> intelligent. It does not matter how accurate you can shoot or how
>talented you are in any area. If you drop the mag. and clear the chamber
> before using it as a visual aid, you are just as safe as the next person.

Of course.

And it doesn't matter if you are the dumbest fuck around or highly intelligent. It does not matter if you can dock last on a 357 way or how talented you are in 4-way. If you open your parachute with plenty of altitude to allow it to open, and land it safely, then you are just as safe as the next skydiver.

>In skydiving there is always going to be a wide range of talent and skill
> level. With Gun safety it is more about following the proper steps to
> insure safety than how talanted you are.

"Land safely under an open parachute." It doesn't matter how talented you are - if you don't follow that simple rule you'll injure or kill yourself skydiving. Every year, people fail to follow that simple rule and end up injured or dead. And every year, the vast majority DO follow that simple rule and make hundreds of jumps without incident.

>You can be legally blind and of very low intelligence with and no legs and
> no thumbs and still be excellent with gun safety.

You can be legally blind, of very low intelligence, and have no legs or one arm and still be a safe skydiver. In fact, I know people who meet all those criteria, and are safe skydivers. I also know smart people with intact bodies who are walking incidents just waiting for coordinates.

The steps you need to take to ensure safety in skydiving are remarkably simple, yet every year people still die because they fail to do them.

[Kennedy 0]

Bill,

There are four simle rules to gun safety. Just four. If you follow them, nothing all that bad can happen.

(1) Every gun is loaded until you personally check otherwise.
...just assume some malevolent gnomes loads it everytime you put it down and turn your back; you know, the ones the loosen leg straps and undo chest straps.

(2) Never point a gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy.
...even if you fuck up, what are you going to hit?

(3) Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
...you've seen Dave call this "indexing." this way, you can't shot anyhting "by accident" because you won't pull the trigger

(4) Know your target and what lies beyond.
...simple, don't shoot until your sure what you'll hit, and what you'll ht if you "miss." even misses hit something.

This idiot is no expert. he is one of those guys who thinks he knows more than everyone else on earth, and he daydreams during safety briefings. Why do I say that? Well, he said the first part himself and the second is shown by thefact that he did take the same safety precautions that DEA firearms instructors take.

=====
DEA FIs never bring live guns and ammo into a training environment unless they want you to shoot something. They use fake guns, and/or they triple check everything as empty. I can assure that these real experts don't perform the unload proceedure in the wrong order, and they sure don't ask someoen who doesn't know how to check to be their backup.

=====

This agent broke three out of four rules. Do that, and you're basically guaranteeing that something bad will happen. That's why people are calling him an idiot.
(I believe he was also called an idiot when the story first broke and we had a thread then)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kelpdiver 2]

[reply
I have never seen you state that. A great many gun proponents, however, become incensed when one points out that a gun can hurt you as well as help you, and can kill you as quickly as it can kill an attacker if mistakes are made handling them.

[Kennedy 0]

Here's the original thread on this topic (and this idiot).
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1060651;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kelpdiver 2]

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2) He claims he is an expert as well:
"I am the only one in this room professional enough that I know of to carry this Glock 40."

If shooting himself wasn't already an indication of his true skill, a statement like this certainly makes one want to leave the room fast. This has been proven in countless skilled activities- if you have to make a statement like this, it's probably not true.

A DEA agent may be far more qualified to talk on the subject than a random teacher, but it doesn't make him an expert.

[kallend 2,106]

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2) He claims he is an expert as well:
"I am the only one in this room professional enough that I know of to carry this Glock 40."

If shooting himself wasn't already an indication of his true skill, a statement like this certainly makes one want to leave the room fast. This has been proven in countless skilled activities- if you have to make a statement like this, it's probably not true.

A DEA agent may be far more qualified to talk on the subject than a random teacher, but it doesn't make him an expert.

How many "amateur" gun owners, including CCW holders, are as well trained as a DEA agent?

I, for one, wouldn't trust the average non-military gun owner further than I could throw him or her.

YMMV.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,070]

>That language implies that the weapon is more hurt than protection . . .

Not at all. See, that's an assumption you're making. It's like saying "AAD's can hurt you or help you", which is 100% true, and is critical to realize when you jump with one. A rabid pro-AAD person might say "Hey! You're saying AAD's are deadly and you shouldn't use them!" Which is completely missing the point.

[Kennedy 0]

Your mileage may vary?
No.

You mieleage WILL vary.

Just compare Aggiedave to the beer-swilling bumpkin stereotype people think represents gunowners.

Remember kallend, it's not important what the teacher teaches; it's what the student learns. This idiot of an agent proves that not all DEA agents are trained to an acceptable level. It's his own fault, not the agency or FIs, but the fact remains his training was not enough to cover even basic safety.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*