Zenister 0 #126 March 24, 2005 Quote And I think we can all agree that what works in a small community can not just be transposed on a whole country with the same effect. are you aware that this argument was once used against democracy?? until it has been tried we cant 'agree' on anything of the sort...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #127 March 24, 2005 Quote Fact then remains, that there are many countries with strict gun laws with far lower crime rates, but not too many countries with better access to guns and lower crime rates. Are countries with strict gun laws likely to have harsher punishement for criminals too? Just curious, as I think that would have more of an effect on crime rate than firearms access would. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #128 March 24, 2005 Quoteare you aware that this argument was once used against democracy?? until it has been tried we cant 'agree' on anything of the sort... Yes I am aware of that. The statement stands though. Not everything that works on a small scale can be transposed to a big scale. You can't agree with that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #129 March 24, 2005 QuoteAs for big business......if you think the small arms trade is not big business you have got to be kidding. I think at this point stock in small arms companies is a better bet than tobacco companies, wouldn't you think? Clearly you believe this, but so far you've shown nothing to prove it's more than just your fantasy. A pack a day smoker is spending in the ballpark of $1500/yr. That's 5 general use shotguns, or 2 pretty nice handguns. While some enthusiasts might spend that much on a really nice long arm, someone who chooses to buy a gun or two for home defense may spend $300 on the shotgun, and $500 on a handgun. ONCE. Then spend less then 100$ a year at the range. Tobacco is by far a better bet - Phillip Morris's earnings are much greater than the gross sales of the gun industry. They just increase the price of smokes by the amount of new tax payments to the feds/states. Altria (PM) is still one of the highest dividend payers out there, at 4.8% Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #130 March 24, 2005 Quoteso anyhoo ... why do people suppose that whenever there is a story in the news about a kid shooting relatives, friends or school teachers, it's always a kid from the USA? Selective reading on your part? "usually" "more often than not" would have been fair statements. "Always" is flat out false. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #131 March 25, 2005 Quotethe problem is the kid (and whatever warped him) and the failure to recognize and act on warning signs. Bingo! Check out this revealing news item: San Francisco Chronicle "a deeply disturbed youth who had been treated for depression in a psychiatric ward, lost several close family members, sketched gruesome scenes of armed warriors and was removed from the school... a young man who drifted among various homes on the reservation, listening to heavy metal music, proclaiming his affinity for Adolf Hitler and periodically showing up at the high school... He was taking the antidepressant Prozac and at least once was hospitalized for suicidal tendencies... Weise had lost many relatives. He was estranged from other family members and had a strained relationship with Daryl Lussier, the grandfather he killed... Weise's father, Daryl Lussier Jr., committed suicide in 1997. Two years later, a serious automobile accident killed a cousin and left Weise's mother partly paralyzed and brain damaged... Weise hated his mother and had a tendency to skip ahead to violent parts in movies they rented... flunked eighth grade... He didn't function academically. He just sat there and drew pictures of army people with guns... He was a talented artist, but he drew terrible, terrible scenes..." Yeah, it's all the NRA's fault. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #132 March 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteEngland? Nope. Australia? Nope. Canada? Nope. Washington, D.C.? Nope. Most of these have already been disputed in the past. But do tell me John, when did Canada ban firearms? None of those have complete bans, but they sure have a lot more restrictions than in America. And none of their restrictions has caused gun crime to be reduced. QuoteOn the opposite, please tell me of a society as a whole, not a couple of communities, where everybody was given a gun, lots of ammo and gun crimes went down. There is no place where "everyone has been given a gun". But here in America, about 70 million people have them, and gun crime has dropped for about 10 years in a row, to the lowest level in 25 years. Gun crime isn't caused by guns. QuoteAs for big business......if you think the small arms trade is not big business you have got to be kidding. I can't find my notes right now, but the last time I looked at this I was working for a company with gross sales of $4.5 billion per year. That's not all that big. And all gun companies in America combined, Springfield, Colt, Ruger, Smith & Wesson, all of 'em together, had less sales than that. Individually, they just aren't that big. Especially if you exclude the military contracts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #133 March 25, 2005 QuoteOn the opposite, please tell me of a society as a whole, not a couple of communities, where everybody was given a gun, lots of ammo and gun crimes went down. Switzerland. http://www.swissgetaway.com/lowcrime.html http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/pd061099b.html http://ecclesia.org/truth/swiss.html You really need to get it through your head that there are: countries with more guns and less crime than the US countries with fewer guns and less crime than the US countries with more guns and more crime than the US countries with fewer guns and more crime than the US The guns don't cause crime in the US, or anywhere else, anymore than cars cause police chases. QuoteAs for big business......if you think the small arms trade is not big business you have got to be kidding. I think at this point stock in small arms companies is a better bet than tobacco companies, wouldn't you think? Please present facts to support your assertion that guns manufacturing is a large industry.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #134 March 25, 2005 John, thanks for that. But the problem is that people don't want to look at the causes, they only want to argue the method/vehicle. They're still ignoring this kid. If one addresses the causes, the method/vehicle becomes unimportant. And then what would they have to blame? Pinning the blame onto something as easy as gun control is ignoring the real issues, and the real cause of this horrible event. And that's what needs to be addressed, not who has which gun, which country has less/more crime, and how big a business guns are... Look at the real issue, people, and find ways to address that. It's not nearly so easy, and certainly not as fun, though. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #135 March 25, 2005 QuoteFact then remains, that there are many countries with strict gun laws with far lower crime rates, but not too many countries with better access to guns and lower crime rates. Switzerland QuoteExactly. And I think we can all agree that what works in a small community can not just be transposed on a whole country with the same effect. Thats what you guys keep saying when we say that the gun bans in DC didn't work great. So we have a city in the US that mandated guns and the crime rate is almost nothing....And we have several cities that tried to ban guns and they have really high crime rates......I see."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #136 March 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteare you aware that this argument was once used against democracy?? until it has been tried we cant 'agree' on anything of the sort... Yes I am aware of that. The statement stands though. Not everything that works on a small scale can be transposed to a big scale. You can't agree with that? absolutely... now what evidence do you have to support your proposition that THIS specific issue would not scale?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #137 March 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteare you aware that this argument was once used against democracy?? until it has been tried we cant 'agree' on anything of the sort... Yes I am aware of that. The statement stands though. Not everything that works on a small scale can be transposed to a big scale. You can't agree with that? absolutely... now what evidence do you have to support your proposition that THIS specific issue would not scale? Wrong way around, don't assume a relationship unless you have evidence for it. Did Kennesaw GA have a crime rate like DC before the gun mandate?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #138 March 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteFact then remains, that there are many countries with strict gun laws with far lower crime rates, but not too many countries with better access to guns and lower crime rates. Switzerland QuoteExactly. And I think we can all agree that what works in a small community can not just be transposed on a whole country with the same effect. Thats what you guys keep saying when we say that the gun bans in DC didn't work great. So we have a city in the US that mandated guns and the crime rate is almost nothing....And we have several cities that tried to ban guns and they have really high crime rates......I see. Do the small cities in IL that banned guns (like Morton Grove and Wilmette) have crime rates like DC? Need to compare apples with apples, Ron.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #139 March 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteare you aware that this argument was once used against democracy?? until it has been tried we cant 'agree' on anything of the sort... Yes I am aware of that. The statement stands though. Not everything that works on a small scale can be transposed to a big scale. You can't agree with that? absolutely... now what evidence do you have to support your proposition that THIS specific issue would not scale? Wrong way around, don't assume a relationship unless you have evidence for it. Did Kennesaw GA have a crime rate like DC before the gun mandate? apples and oranges.. what should be compared is relative crime rates in each locale before and after the change to local gun ownership laws. his conjecture is that the measure in GA would not scale.. What evidence supports that position? now compare that to the evidence that support the assertion that a ban on firearms lowers violent crime rates?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #140 March 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteare you aware that this argument was once used against democracy?? until it has been tried we cant 'agree' on anything of the sort... Yes I am aware of that. The statement stands though. Not everything that works on a small scale can be transposed to a big scale. You can't agree with that? absolutely... now what evidence do you have to support your proposition that THIS specific issue would not scale? Wrong way around, don't assume a relationship unless you have evidence for it. Did Kennesaw GA have a crime rate like DC before the gun mandate? apples and oranges.. what should be compared is relative crime rates in each locale before and after the change to local gun ownership laws. his conjecture is that the measure in GA would not scale.. What evidence supports that position? now compare that to the evidence that support the assertion that a ban on firearms lowers violent crime rates? Homicides in Chicago decline 22% in first quarter of 2005, following a 25% decline in 2004. Must be the moratorium on the death penalty in IL , can't possibly be the gun laws being enforced at last.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #141 March 25, 2005 QuoteDo the small cities in IL that banned guns (like Morton Grove and Wilmette) have crime rates like DC? Need to compare apples with apples, Ron. How do you explain the DROP in crime when Kennesaw put its gun law into effect?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #142 March 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteDo the small cities in IL that banned guns (like Morton Grove and Wilmette) have crime rates like DC? Need to compare apples with apples, Ron. How do you explain the DROP in crime when Kennesaw put its gun law into effect? How do you explain Chicago's huge drop in homicides after the death penalty was effectively eliminated in Illinois?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #143 March 25, 2005 QuoteHow do you explain Chicago's huge drop in homicides after the death penalty was effectively eliminated in Illinois? I don't know. Now you answer my question. Why did crime levels drop in Kennesaw?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #144 March 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteHow do you explain Chicago's huge drop in homicides after the death penalty was effectively eliminated in Illinois? I don't know. Now you answer my question. Why did crime levels drop in Kennesaw? The street gang members left and went to DC. The homeless left and went to LA. The crack houses shut up shop and went to NYC. The illegal immigrant traffic diverted to Chicago. None of these demographics scale, why should crime?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #145 March 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteDo the small cities in IL that banned guns (like Morton Grove and Wilmette) have crime rates like DC? Need to compare apples with apples, Ron. How do you explain the DROP in crime when Kennesaw put its gun law into effect? How do you explain Chicago's huge drop in homicides after the death penalty was effectively eliminated in Illinois? Why do we drive on parkways and park on driveways? I can bet the answer to both of the questions has nothing to do with the death penatly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #146 March 25, 2005 QuoteThe street gang members left and went to DC. The homeless left and went to LA. The crack houses shut up shop and went to NYC. The illegal immigrant traffic diverted to Chicago. None of these demographics scale, why should crime? None of your statement answer why the crime rate in Kenesaw went DOWN after the law. See the SAME city, same people...The only difference was the gun law. So why did the crime rate DROP in the city?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #147 March 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe street gang members left and went to DC. The homeless left and went to LA. The crack houses shut up shop and went to NYC. The illegal immigrant traffic diverted to Chicago. None of these demographics scale, why should crime? None of your statement answer why the crime rate in Kenesaw went DOWN after the law. See the SAME city, same people...The only difference was the gun law. So why did the crime rate DROP in the city? Why did it drop in Chicago? Chicago murder is down 41% over 2 years. Perhaps all big cities should follow Mayor Daley's lead in Chicago.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,439 #148 March 25, 2005 QuotePerhaps all big cities should follow Mayor Daley's lead in Chicago What, and turn in-town airports into parks? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #149 March 25, 2005 Quote Why did it drop in Chicago? Given the number of possibilities of why it could have dropped, I find it funny that you are so certain that the use of the death pentalty had any effect on it at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #150 March 25, 2005 It spiked in San Francisco the past couple years. (then again, most of the dead were scumbags on the cops' hot list, so who cares?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
