kelpdiver 2 #26 March 23, 2005 Quote My concern with regards to those that choose not to wear a helmet,WE the taxpayer in a lot of instances, foot the bill for their "choice" should they incur a serious head injury and require long term care.If they take responsibility for their choice not to wear a helmet,they should also take responsibility for the possible consequences of that choice.My 2 cents worth. Let's be honest. If it's really about money, repeal the lid laws. The cost of care is cheaper for a helmetless rider in an accident. Not by much, but yes, it is a savings, for the rather obvious reason that more of them die quickly. And then you can harvest their organs! If you want to allow helmet riders, but only with some bullshit insurance requierement, then you better be willing to subject the skydiving community to the same. If you really wanted to save money - mandate that anyone with an accident or a violation on their driving record be required to take a $300 defensive driving course in order to renew their license. The lions share of accidental medical care is centered on car accidents, and bad driving is the primary cause. Of course, it's much easier to pick on the tiny minority groups like jumpers and riders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #27 March 23, 2005 get rid of seat belt laws as well... its your life, risk it in any manner you chose... but i dont believe anyone should be required to pay for your stupidity either.. no insurance? oh well....your stay here wont be to long anyway... every individual should be able to decide what risks they are willing to take, and waive the 'benefits' of civilized society if those risks exceed the consensus... i'm still pissed there are places you cant legally camp over night simply because the cost of a potential rescue is to high... if you walked in, you should walk out.. if you cant...... at least the natives wont go hungry that week... freedom seems to mean less and less every year.... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #28 March 24, 2005 Quoteget rid of seat belt laws as well... its your life, risk it in any manner you chose... A unbelted driver is much less able to regain control of the car after the collision. It's easy to justify that requirement, and perhaps by extention requiring it for the front seat passenger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #29 March 24, 2005 Quoteget rid of seat belt laws as well... its your life, risk it in any manner you chose... but i dont believe anyone should be required to pay for your stupidity either.. no insurance? oh well....your stay here wont be to long anyway... every individual should be able to decide what risks they are willing to take, and waive the 'benefits' of civilized society if those risks exceed the consensus... i'm still pissed there are places you cant legally camp over night simply because the cost of a potential rescue is to high... if you walked in, you should walk out.. if you cant...... at least the natives wont go hungry that week... freedom seems to mean less and less every year.... I'm with you on this. I wonder how many skydivers who are against the repeal of helmet laws would feel if helmets were mandated for skydiving. I also wonder how many who are against mandated helmets for skydivers, do not support T.S right to die. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #30 March 24, 2005 in the case of T.S., she isn't getting to make that call. It's her husband versus her family. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #31 March 24, 2005 Quotein the case of T.S., she isn't getting to make that call. It's her husband versus her family. Thats debatable. Without a Medical Directive the decision is legally up to the husband, like it or not. I do know what I would choose if I was in her condition and I do know my S.O. and family would honor my wishes. I can understand her familys perspective but I also see her husbands. It's a very gut-wrentching situation but the law is clear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #32 March 24, 2005 the law, sure. Her exercising her right to die - hardly. She isn't capable of doing that at this time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #33 March 24, 2005 Quotethe law, sure. Her exercising her right to die - hardly. She isn't capable of doing that at this time. Sad isn't it? I really hope this encourages people to get an Advanced Medical Directive drawn up. This could easily be one of us lying in that bed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dbrew 0 #34 March 25, 2005 Quote I do not support the repeal of all helmet laws. I support the repeal with a few stipulations. Not because I think you don't have a right without stipulations, rather because I think it is a compromise and only fair to tax payers who are paying the bills whether they 'should' or not. I personaly hardly ever where a helmet. Like its been echoed in this thread I feel it takes away from the riding experiance. I feel all riders should have medical insurance. Not to lessen the burden on the tax payer but rather to lessen the burden on thier loved ones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dbrew 0 #35 March 25, 2005 QuoteQuotethe law, sure. Her exercising her right to die - hardly. She isn't capable of doing that at this time. Sad isn't it? I really hope this encourages people to get an Advanced Medical Directive drawn up. This could easily be one of us lying in that bed. Amen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skykittykat 0 #36 March 26, 2005 Totally agree with the seat belt option - I was a passenger in a car accident years ago and where I lived you didn't have to wear seat belts by law. To cut a long story short, if I had been wearing a seat belt, I would have been killed as the seat I was in was sliced in half after I had been thrown clear. Yes, I know that many other people have been saved by seat belts, but it should be a personal choice apart for kids under the legal driving age. Quotefreedom seems to mean less and less every year.... It's the curse of Nanny State Governments. It is easier to pass laws that face the least resistance and garner those all important votes... Quoteif helmets were mandated for skydiving It is mandatory for all skydivers skydiving in the UK to wear helmets as per the BPA rules. You do need a minimum of a C licence (200 jumps)to wear a frapp hat though Liz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsled92 0 #37 March 26, 2005 QuoteI think helmet laws should be repealed... simply because if someone wants to be stupid, let them be stupid. We have too many laws that protect individuals from their own stupidity and waste government time and resources on enforcement. I think the decision about Terri Schiavo should rest with her husband and it isn't anyone else's business. I have been riding since I was 4yrs old=1971 *****I totally agree with you on both counts. (I have settled these wishes with family as well)_______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #38 March 26, 2005 QuoteMy concern with regards to those that choose not to wear a helmet,WE the taxpayer in a lot of instances, foot the bill for their "choice" should they incur a serious head injury and require long term care.If they take responsibility for their choice not to wear a helmet,they should also take responsibility for the possible consequences of that choice.My 2 cents worth. I see this argument a lot, and I find it pretty rough that people think the problem is not having a helmet. It's not the problem. The problem is socialism. People don't tend to be risk averse is the risk is spread to others. Our socialist medical system says, "Fuck yourself up, you'll get treated. Taxpayers will cover your asses." Gee. It makes you wonder why people aren't getting insurance, doesn't it? Or is the answer somewhere in our screwed up socialist medicine society? Wouldn't it be easier to say, "Your wages will be garnished until $350k is paid off. You should have thought about that when you chose not to wear a helmet. " And there are lots of folks clamoring for more socialism in medicine. Pass the tylenol while passing the buck... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #39 March 26, 2005 QuoteI think helmet laws should be repealed... simply because if someone wants to be stupid, let them be stupid. We have too many laws that protect individuals from their own stupidity and waste government time and resources on enforcement. I invite anyone with this mind-set to please come and spend just a day at work with me. The young, brain injured men who we have the duty to treat is gut wrenching. They can sit. They can try and stand. Their mind is working and they are trapped inside a useless, painful body. Their insurance (or that of their parents) may be adequate in the beginning....but remember, this is a LIFE-LONG disability and insurance -does- run out. They -then- become dependent on the state to pick up the bill. That, or their parents have to foot the bill themselves. Both are a burden. This is -not- a Teri Shiavo case. She is brain dead and is among the 'living dead'. She should have been let go a -long- time ago. I'm talking about those (mostly men in motorcycle accidents) who are still brain alive...but body dead. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #40 March 26, 2005 Then we should ban motorcycles? After all, that is the "only real" way we can prevent these type of tragedies. While we are at it, lets ban skydiving too. Too may things that can go wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #41 March 26, 2005 QuoteThen we should ban motorcycles? After all, that is the "only real" way we can prevent these type of tragedies. While we are at it, lets ban skydiving too. Too may things that can go wrong. If my mom had her way, yes this would be the case. However, like skydiving we don't let people out of the plane without a rig, a motorcyclist should wear a helmet. Like I said...feel free to contact me and join me for a day of work. Just a helmet....(or in a car...just a seat belt)...and things would have been VERY different for my patient(s). ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #42 March 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteMy concern with regards to those that choose not to wear a helmet,WE the taxpayer in a lot of instances, foot the bill for their "choice" should they incur a serious head injury and require long term care.If they take responsibility for their choice not to wear a helmet,they should also take responsibility for the possible consequences of that choice.My 2 cents worth. I see this argument a lot, and I find it pretty rough that people think the problem is not having a helmet. It's not the problem. The problem is socialism. People don't tend to be risk averse is the risk is spread to others. Our socialist medical system says, "Fuck yourself up, you'll get treated. Taxpayers will cover your asses." Gee. It makes you wonder why people aren't getting insurance, doesn't it? Or is the answer somewhere in our screwed up socialist medicine society? Wouldn't it be easier to say, "Your wages will be garnished until $350k is paid off. You should have thought about that when you chose not to wear a helmet. " And there are lots of folks clamoring for more socialism in medicine. Pass the tylenol while passing the buck... No, it wouldn't be easier because a lot of bikers don't have the capacity to produce $350k in their lifetime, especially after head injuries, so garnishing wages like you suggest is impossible.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #43 March 26, 2005 It's not the job of the government to protect individuals from themselves. To protect individuals from others, yes, but not from themselves. People need to be responsible for the consequences of their own actions. The government needs to be a government, not a parent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoadRash 0 #44 March 26, 2005 QuoteNo, it wouldn't be easier because a lot of bikers don't have the capacity to produce $350k in their lifetime, especially after head injuries, so garnishing wages like you suggest is impossible. Guess he should have thought of that before he hopped on the back of his bike without a helmet...... ~R+R...~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #45 March 26, 2005 What I don't understand is why some people have a helmet strapped to the back of a bike with a cargo net while riding... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #46 March 26, 2005 Quote No, it wouldn't be easier because a lot of bikers don't have the capacity to produce $350k in their lifetime, especially after head injuries, so garnishing wages like you suggest is impossible. The median income for bikers is well above the national average, so you might be making up numbers again. After a bad injury - different story. Just like for anyone else. If people want to mandate insurance to participate in activities they themselves don't approve of, might as well just do national healthcare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #47 March 26, 2005 QuoteQuote No, it wouldn't be easier because a lot of bikers don't have the capacity to produce $350k in their lifetime, especially after head injuries, so garnishing wages like you suggest is impossible. The median income for bikers is well above the national average, so you might be making up numbers again. After a bad injury - different story. Just like for anyone else. Well, if it resulted in medical bills of $350k on account of not wearing a helmet, I think the chances are pretty good that it's a bad head injury. So I think it's fair to say that earning power would be reduced. Maybe ltdiver can give us some info on the employment prospects of the head injury victims she works with, and the likelihood that they'll be making above median income. I only know one biker who is in this situation. Injured 12 years ago. Just sits in his room and smiles. Hasn't spoken in 12 years. No health insurance. Guess who pays?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #48 March 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteNo, it wouldn't be easier because a lot of bikers don't have the capacity to produce $350k in their lifetime, especially after head injuries, so garnishing wages like you suggest is impossible. Guess he should have thought of that before he hopped on the back of his bike without a helmet...... Given that so many of them didn't think of this before, what is your solution for them? Just let them die?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #49 March 26, 2005 QuoteNo, it wouldn't be easier because a lot of bikers don't have the capacity to produce $350k in their lifetime It's pretty obvious you know very little about motorcyclists. Seen too many 60's Hells Angels movies? How many low income people do you think can afford a brand new $21,000. Harley Davidson? I'd guess a lot fewer than can afford $5000. for skydiving gear. So does your pompous statement also apply to skydivers? Most of the folks I ride with a high income professionals. In fact I'd be more than happy to compare my annual income with yours Professor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #50 March 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteNo, it wouldn't be easier because a lot of bikers don't have the capacity to produce $350k in their lifetime, especially after head injuries, so garnishing wages like you suggest is impossible. Guess he should have thought of that before he hopped on the back of his bike without a helmet...... Given that so many of them didn't think of this before, what is your solution for them? Just let them die? exactly, if you decide to ignore the guidlines offered by civilization you shouldnt reap the benifits unless you have made arrangements for your care (insurance)... maybe after a few hundred graphic illustrations of why not to be stupid people will wise up... then again, maybe they wont..but either way, its about time some form of darwinism was reintroduced into our society... we are that far away from drowning in each others sweat...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
