Easing the prison burden

[freethefly 6]

DISGRACE
(Source:Charleston Gazette)
Regional News
US WV: Editorial: Disgrace

23 Mar 2005

West Virginia
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Why So Many Prisons

AMERICA is tainted by its horrendous rate of prisoners locked in cells. This nation jails about six times more people per capita than do Canada, England, Mexico and other countries.

The United States has 2.1 million citizens in steel cages. Since it costs about $22,000 to hold each convict annually, taxpayers must cough up $40 billion-plus per year for incarceration.

California spends more for prisons than for higher education. Texas is the lock-"em-up capital, with more prisons than any other state. Texas has built 100 new prisons since 1980.

Why is America the world's biggest stockade? Are Americans six times more criminal than people in Canada, England, Mexico, etc.? Of course not. The disgraceful U.S. lockup rate may come from harsh, judgmental, unforgiving attitudes inherited from Puritan founders. Vast numbers of Americans are locked up for drugs. Other societies are more tolerant of addicts, but not America.

Last month, a study by the state Council of Churches and two other humanitarian groups -- plus a second study by the Criminal Justice Analysis Center -- showed that the number of West Virginians in cells skyrocketed from 2,300 to more than 5,000 in the past decade. Taxpayer costs likewise doubled.

The Legislature, desperate to find enough revenue to run the state government, is jarred by the soaring lockup tab. Meanwhile, county commissions are wracked by the cost of keeping defendants in regional jails. Last year, Kanawha's expense was $3.1 million.

Now, Kanawha commissioners see a way to reduce the incarceration burden. They want to put nonviolent offenders on probation -- leaving them free to hold jobs -- and make them report to a center where they'll get drug counseling, GED classes, career help and the like.

The commission already has hired a director for the day reporting center, and is applying for a state grant to employ counselors and officers. Freed offenders would be charged perhaps $150 a month to help pay for the liberating system. Any who slipped back into dope or crime would lose their freedom, joining the multitude in cells.

Bravo. We think this is a splendid plan, and we hope the state grant is obtained. In fact, we hope the whole country utilizes such alternative sentences to the greatest degree possible. Anything that reduces the grotesque rate of Americans in steel cages will be a blessing.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Gravitymaster 0]

I agree that anyone arrested for simple possession should not be put in jail.

OTOH I think we need to bring back hard labor sentences for anyone convicted of a heinous crime that involves violence or the death of someone. I don't believe in the death penalty though.

[wmw999 2,446]

I'm not even sure I believe in hard labor, but labor, definitely. There has to be something useful just about everyone can do, even if it's piecework in their cell. Yes, of course some would just destroy whatever they get. But they're not doing anything now -- what's the change?

Death penalty is much more iffy. I have a feeling it's personal, which makes it wrong.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[USNLawdog 0]

Horrible idea.

Congrats on your being caught. The owners of those 10 houses you broke into, stole all of their worldly possesions and then sold them for drug/spending money who will never recieve compensation for the feeling of violation they now have will have some justice. You didn't use any violence in the acts so you are punished to 5 years on parole, you must get a job at this warehouse where you will be in the inventory and distribution center. From your paycheck you will pay 150 dollars to the state as a penalty for being caught. You are also sentenced to goto school get better educated and recieve drug counciling about your addictions on the states dime. Welcome to the new judicial system. If you get caught again you will goto jail but for now, your free. Here's a printout of your school and rehab meeting schedule. Oh yeah because we can't prove anything you can keep that new porsche you just bought with money possibly made during those robberies.

Again, horrible idea. Americans in cages, hmm I don't mind. Hell at least we didn't send all of of prisioners to another country like England. I don't suppose anyone else has seen the Federalies vans full of people cruising around in TJ looking to stuff one more body in there before heading back for the drop off at the prison. I won't even get into the population differences in the countries. So in conclusion, horrible idea.

"I've taken the liberty of drafting your confession, you will be given a fair trial and then taken out back and shot."

[crazedmonkey32 0]

Not quite so horrible - Yes I agree that people caught for crimes with a victim should be punished properly, a massive number of "criminals" who were caught with a bit of pot and get locked up is a massive waste of time and resources. Let them free and save millions.


Paul

[DrunkMonkey 0]

Quote

I agree that anyone arrested for simple possession should not be put in jail.

Disagree. Dissuade the user from further use via punishment, the clientele/demand for drugs dries up, along with the inherent violence...

[wmw999 2,446]

Quote

Dissuade the user from further use via punishment, the clientele/demand for drugs dries up, along with the inherent violence...

It's worked so far

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Feeblemind 1]

Where as I agree that minor amounts of Pot should not be a jailable offense, but where to you draw the line? IS a little pot your line in the sand? What if the person who beats their spouse says I only slapped her (I have a little pot) it's not like I broke her nose (had an 8-ball of coke)!!! I wish they could just come up with a simple, reliable test for law enforcement to detect when folks are actually high (not the one that can detect THC from party 6-12 weeks prior). i say this in the same context as sobriety tests for drivers. If the country could do this they should legalize pot, alcohol kills thousands every year, but there is to much mnoney in it now for them to ever make it illegal.

As far as hard labor is concerned, geez we can't violate their rights by making them work. Alot of these dirt bags have never done a days work in their life so you are effectively violating their rights by making them work. They are entitled to full law libraries, three square meals a day, cable TV, Telephone service, free laundry service, free rent, etc. etc. Sorry to rant here but make them turn big rocks to little rocks and little rocks to gravel. Alot of the nations highways were built on prison labor, but now they just vist the grey bar hotel.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[freethefly 6]

I see nothing horriable about giving someone a chance to redeem themself. I would add one more condition; repay the victim.
Besides small time drug users there is also those locked up for being deadbeat dads/moms, traffic offenders, public nuicance.... There is a big list of why people are confined and it is shocking to know of what extent the long arm of the law can do if its hand is wrapping its fingers around your throat. America is the extreme when it comes to legislating the population. The extreme is laws pertaining to personal action in which the person at most risk is the person commiting such action. Base jumping comes to mind. Federal law considers it dangerous. One could be confined for jumping El Capitan even though the only one at risk is the jumper. Using such logic that these laws are for protecting ones selve from ones selve then driving an automobile should also be a federal offense as should stepping into a bathtub that has no nonslip strips. Why America has 1/3 of the worlds prison population and growing daily is no wonder. Just take a look at at is considered criminal and then watch out.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Ron 10]

Quote

is a big list of why people are confined and it is shocking to know of what extent the long arm of the law can do if its hand is wrapping its fingers around your throat. America is the extreme when it comes to legislating the population

I had a long discussion with a friend from Denmark...He thinks his countries laws are to easy on the criminal.

We talked about Drugs, prostitution, violent crime. He seemed to think that they were not being strict enough.

Either way I don't think it matters...Criminals will be criminals either way.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[USNLawdog 0]

Drugs is a difficult thing to discuss punishment for. Different drugs carry different punishments based on their drug schedule, amount in possesion, prior convictions for possession, distribution etc. As a LEO my line in the sand is any drugs, but that is the Navy, Zero tolerance. Most people that are in prison are not there because they were caught with a little pot(edited here: or a speeding ticket or 1 arguement with their spouse). It's because they were caught with a little pot (or offense) alot of times. Or they were caught with alot of pot, normally for distribution or trafficing to the distributors. The line isn't where is it illegal, it's where is it tolerated. Eveyone knows where the line is for illegal, but tolerance of the drug thats in the mind of the individual. I've seen drugs tear alot of people apart, throw away careers, break up families because they wanted to get high. The drug users in prison are not there for having a joint, they are there because they were caught enough times by normally the same officers, in the same spots doing the same thing.

The better topic is why do we have so many people on death row for 20-30 years. I know alot of people who would volunteer to aid in the killing of those people. "Oh but there are some people that are innocent on death row" Yes and there is also people like Charles Manson on death row. Guys and girls that were caught in the act of raping, killing, kidnapping the list goes on. End it now and save the money.

I'm all about saving some money and putting it back into the system where it is needed in schools and IMHO the pockets of public servants like fire fighters and LEO's. In my time I've been thanked by a number of people, some old, some young, some pretty, some pretty ugly. But no matter who says it whenever I've been thanked for just doing my job it feels great. I have a smile on my face for an hour because those are the people I serve and they are happy at my performance. However I may walk into a fast food restruant and order a burger and I'll get the wrong order with spit in it just because I wear a badge. How F*^$ed up is that? But it comes with the territory.

Not everyone convicted is a criminal and not everyone exonerated is innocent but it happens and all we can do is try to make the best decision to put those guilty behind bars or on the table for lethal injection. Don't look at jury duty as something that is going to ruin your day. Look at it as a chance to make the decision. Everyone whines about the juries actions but noone wants to be in the chairs.

"I've taken the liberty of drafting your confession, you will be given a fair trial and then taken out back and shot."

[EBSB52 0]

Quote

I agree that anyone arrested for simple possession should not be put in jail.

OTOH I think we need to bring back hard labor sentences for anyone convicted of a heinous crime that involves violence or the death of someone. I don't believe in the death penalty though.

As deterrence, or????? Do you think these people will actually perform the hard labor since they will never see the light of day???? Retribution sucks and makes all of society that much more jaded and synical. JUst remove murderers from society and be glad they're gome.

[EBSB52 0]

Quote

I'm not even sure I believe in hard labor, but labor, definitely. There has to be something useful just about everyone can do, even if it's piecework in their cell. Yes, of course some would just destroy whatever they get. But they're not doing anything now -- what's the change?

Death penalty is much more iffy. I have a feeling it's personal, which makes it wrong.

Wendy W.

In case you guys didn't know, we have that. The US gov, in all its Fascist fury, has made most/all US prisons corporate-run. SO prisons are essentially for profit, however the taxpayers still pay SOMEONE, even though prisoners do work. I have major problems with prisons being run by corporations and not the gov.

[EBSB52 0]

Quote

Horrible idea.

Congrats on your being caught. The owners of those 10 houses you broke into, stole all of their worldly possesions and then sold them for drug/spending money who will never recieve compensation for the feeling of violation they now have will have some justice. You didn't use any violence in the acts so you are punished to 5 years on parole, you must get a job at this warehouse where you will be in the inventory and distribution center. From your paycheck you will pay 150 dollars to the state as a penalty for being caught. You are also sentenced to goto school get better educated and recieve drug counciling about your addictions on the states dime. Welcome to the new judicial system. If you get caught again you will goto jail but for now, your free. Here's a printout of your school and rehab meeting schedule. Oh yeah because we can't prove anything you can keep that new porsche you just bought with money possibly made during those robberies.

Again, horrible idea. Americans in cages, hmm I don't mind. Hell at least we didn't send all of of prisioners to another country like England. I don't suppose anyone else has seen the Federalies vans full of people cruising around in TJ looking to stuff one more body in there before heading back for the drop off at the prison. I won't even get into the population differences in the countries. So in conclusion, horrible idea.

Gee, I had a real estate broker do that with the help of a cop. His police department refused to even take a police report.... ya know, help out ONE OF THEIR OWN. 8 days later he smoked a mother of 3 at a Walgreen's drive thru, was fired, tried for murder, acquitted and is now suing everyone for his job back. Ya, the first line of protection is corrupt all the way to the top - let's see if he gets his job back to complete the story of criminals within the system, supposedly protecting us from so-called criminals.

[EBSB52 0]

Quote

Quote

Dissuade the user from further use via punishment, the clientele/demand for drugs dries up, along with the inherent violence...

It's worked so far

Wendy W.

(I know you're kidding)

Ya, just like prohibition did - do we not learn a thing?

[EBSB52 0]

Quote

I see nothing horriable about giving someone a chance to redeem themself. I would add one more condition; repay the victim.
Besides small time drug users there is also those locked up for being deadbeat dads/moms, traffic offenders, public nuicance.... There is a big list of why people are confined and it is shocking to know of what extent the long arm of the law can do if its hand is wrapping its fingers around your throat. America is the extreme when it comes to legislating the population. The extreme is laws pertaining to personal action in which the person at most risk is the person commiting such action. Base jumping comes to mind. Federal law considers it dangerous. One could be confined for jumping El Capitan even though the only one at risk is the jumper. Using such logic that these laws are for protecting ones selve from ones selve then driving an automobile should also be a federal offense as should stepping into a bathtub that has no nonslip strips. Why America has 1/3 of the worlds prison population and growing daily is no wonder. Just take a look at at is considered criminal and then watch out.

I see nothing horriable about giving someone a chance to redeem themself. I would add one more condition; repay the victim.

They do, it's called restitution and virtually all plea deals have these. In fact, violate the terms of the plea deal, it's go back to jail time.

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Again, horrible idea. Americans in cages, hmm I don't mind. Hell at least we didn't send all of of prisioners to another country like England.

Hey, the Brits had to populate America and Australia somehow.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lurch 0]

Disagree. Dissuade the user from further use via punishment, the clientele/demand for drugs dries up, along with the inherent violence...

...Right. Obviously we're a fast learner. It's The Law, right? That excuses anything. They break the law, cage the joint-smoking scum. As you have so eloquently put numerous times in other posts on the subject, the best place for a lazy-ass lawbreaking pothead is in a cage being gang raped by bubba, which is of course an appropriate punishment for such heinous dangerous brutal crimes as getting a buzz with friends without the permission of the government. Oh and lets not forget medical uses. Its still a crime right? So lets go round up every cancer patient who uses the stuff as painkiller and appetite stimulant. Fuck the chemo-heads they're breaking the law, sufficiently draconian punishment will bring those cancer freaks to heel quickly unless they too want to enjoy state hospitality with unpleasant roommates. After all we know pots a gateway drug associated with lots of inherent violence I mean hell, look at all those savage armed and dangerous bald headed cancer patients and inhumanly violent stoners sitting around relaxing having a good time with friends. You just know they're waiting for an excuse to go medieval in public, they only LOOK like happy harmless people, they're really evil wicked violent criminal reefer addicts and should be shot. We learned all this back in the early 20th century from such obviously unbiased scientific films as "reefer madness."
Now alcohol IS legal though and nobody has a problem with that which begs the question:
If they legalize dope tomorrow, will all those lazy-ass lawbreaking pot smoking scum deserving of prison rape suddenly instantly become perfectly acceptable fine upstanding citizens undeserving of such hideous abuse because the law decided they aren't criminals anymore? And what are you going to do about the 700,000 teenagers in cages for their "crimes"?
Let them go and say sorry we redefined "bad" and now you're off the hook, pot isn't a crime anymore,sorry about destroying your life taking all your money and of course the raped in a cage thing? Sorry we had to do that to you, but Its The Law. Break the law lose all human rights and become disposable state property and drunkmonkey here will gleefully enjoy the prospect of another youngster being gang raped by bubba for the crime of deciding for himself what to smoke and not letting the state have its say.

Hey, fuck it, while we're at it lets keep it up. We can dissuade all kinds of users via more and more punishment. Whatever it takes to enforce the will of the state and exert control over the behavior of others, right? How about:
Underage posession of alcohol or tobacco:
They're breaking the law just as bad as the potheads. Imprison them till they're legal to posess. That'll learn em. Up till you're 21, get caught with a beer you're a criminal on drunkmonkey's prison rape list. Turn 21, voila. Instant law abiding citizen suddenly no punishment is required, go about your business....
This seems logical. Sieg Heil!

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[DrunkMonkey 0]

Your post was 4 minutes late.

Until the law changes, YOU ARE A CRIMINAL if you are in possession. Change the law or defy it at your own risk.

You have just as much access to the system as I do.

Although I doubt you'll change it, as most stoners are not organized enough to do so...

[lurch 0]

Although I doubt you'll change it, as most stoners are not organized enough to do so...

Laughing my ass off. "most stoners"...
Did you ever even once check the veracity of the generalizations you use to judge and/or persecute people?
Most stoners I know don't fit your rigid little picture my friend. Most stoners I know have steady, well paid jobs, solid home lives, drivers licenses, 401k's, the works. They are real estate salesmen, computer programmers, industrial automation technicians and software consultants. They are directors of test operations for semiconductor wafer development fabrication facilities and aeronautical engineers and aldermen and chemical vapor deposition optics manufacture specialists. Doctors nurses and CPAs. A lot of those stoners are skydivers which right there is completely at odds with your image... Not too many disorganized lazy ass criminals have the balls the drive the skill the resources and resourcefulness necessary to become skydivers in the first place or even survive the training necessary to become one. The two descriptions are mutually exclusive.
Now is your rigid picture open to amendment or do you still think no stoner is organized enough to be any of those things I just described?

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[justinb138 0]

Quote

After all we know pots a gateway drug

. The only thing I've seen people do after pot is Doritos...

Personally, I don't see the real difference between someone going home after work and getting stoned, or that same person going home and getting black-out drunk.

Only thing different is that one is perfectly legal, and the other will get you jail time, and costs billions of dollars a year to attempt to control.

[DrunkMonkey 0]

Notwithstanding the emotional factors, one can distill it to the following:

1. It is illegal.
2. Either follow the law or risk the consequences.
3. If you wish it to be legal, change the law.
4. If you are caught and convicted, You are a criminal. The punishment you recieve is what the law and the judge have decided is what is warranted for you.
5. People are murdered in trying to ship you your illegal substance. You have their blood on your hands.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

After all we know pots a gateway drug

. The only thing I've seen people do after pot is Doritos...

Personally, I don't see the real difference between someone going home after work and getting stoned, or that same person going home and getting black-out drunk.

Only thing different is that one is perfectly legal, and the other will get you jail time, and costs billions of dollars a year to attempt to control.

Perhaps you should attend a few Narcotics Anonymous sessions. You might change your views.

[lurch 0]

Oh and you haven't answered the question. According to your specifically expressed opinion the whole subject is absolute. Its The Law. Period, no negotiation or individual judgement. Got a problem, go through the system, an approach that has obviously worked really well for the tens of millions of americans who've been trying to do it the system's way for the last forty years.
You have expressed glee at the thought of any stoner being hauled away to be gang raped in a cage because they do not consider themselves bound by the Law you serve. Had it occurred to you that this includes grannies smoking pot to beat glaucoma and avoid permanent blindness. This includes 15 year old kids, hanging out after school in the back woods trails enjoying the company of friends. This includes the 18-year old mother of two working through business school and moonlighting as a waitress at the local denny's. This includes the guy halfway through medical school on his way to a career as a neurosurgeon who sparks up on a weekend to momentarily relieve the stress that accompanies his drive and ambition.
This includes your own child and anyone else's the day you catch him/her out behind the garage puffin with peers.
Now. The question, again:
If they legalize dope tomorrow, will all those lazy-ass lawbreaking pot smoking scum deserving of prison rape suddenly instantly become perfectly acceptable fine upstanding citizens undeserving of such hideous abuse because the law decided they aren't criminals anymore? Yes or no?
Because if its yes, that means your idea of right and wrong is entirely subject to the whims of the state. And if its no, how do you justify the attitude? Would you be as draconian to alcohol users if they brought back booze prohibition? Exact same argument applies. Suddenly you're condemning an awful lot of people there amigo. You sure you wanna be like that? Not much love in the life of a puritan, friend.

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[DrunkMonkey 0]

Quote

Now. The question, again:
If they legalize dope tomorrow, will all those lazy-ass lawbreaking pot smoking scum deserving of prison rape suddenly instantly become perfectly acceptable fine upstanding citizens undeserving of such hideous abuse because the law decided they aren't criminals anymore? Yes or no?

What I think of them is irrelevant. If the law was repealed, then logic dictates they would no longer be criminals.