tkhayes 348 #1 April 1, 2005 http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/03/31/usspies050331.html Only one of dozens of news stories on the latest report about US intelligence and the war, WMD's and pretty much everything else. So at the risk of starting the debate all over again - Just how many reports of no WMD's, faulty intelligence and 'running to war' are we supposed to read before someone says "Hey maybe we were wrong?" Gas is at the highest price ever, the middle east is anything but stable, we are still on 'yellow alerts' and the deficit is going to be trillions. Woo-hoo, where do I sign up? TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #2 April 1, 2005 Anyone who is surprised & outraged at intelligence agencies making mistakes has obviously been reading too many Jack Ryan novels! These agencies are charged with trying to find out stuff which their targets are trying very hard to conceal! By definition they have to deal with traitorous liars & make their assessments on incomplete information. So yeah. They got it wrong. Live with it. Deal with it. Move on. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #3 April 1, 2005 But...but.... the information we have *NOW* shows that the information we had *THEN* wasn't correct.... damn Bush and his cronies, anyway!!! They should have know that, then!!! Maybe we would've had a chance at better intel (which, of course, most of the rest of the world agreed with at the time, not to mention Congress) if Clinton hadn't gutted the intelligence services so badly...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #4 April 1, 2005 hmmm, if I get it 'wrong' and a bunch of people die, whatever it is, it becomes a criminal offense. Manslaughter, murder, or at least criminal negligence causing death. In the case of war, they call it war crimes. I would like you to stand in front of the families of the 1500+ dead US soldiers and say " Live with it - Move on" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #5 April 1, 2005 hell a "my bad" would have been nice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #6 April 1, 2005 Quotehmmm, if I get it 'wrong' and a bunch of people die, whatever it is, it becomes a criminal offense. Manslaughter, murder, or at least criminal negligence causing death. Err... NO! It's only murder if it's a deliberate act. It's only manslaughter if there's culpable negligence. If you kill someone while carrying out a lawful action in a proper manner showing reasonable care, then it's commonly called "Casual Homicide - which isn't criminal! QuoteIn the case of war, they call it war crimes. WHAT war crimes have been committed by the intelligence communities in providing the demanded assessment to their political leaders. They did their best with the information they had at the time. The coalition leaders acted on the information available. Of course, it's alkl too easy to condemn with the benefit of hindsight & new information? QuoteI would like you to stand in front of the families of the 1500+ dead US soldiers and say " Live with it - Move on" I find your linkage somewhat stretched. whether we were justified in invading Iraq eill only be resolved by historians 50+ years in the future. Would you also like me to personally apologise to the families of the Canadian & British servicemen who were killed by US "Friendly fire"? What I said was that WITH HINDSIGHT the intelligence communities made a mistake. Running around madly in an atempt to blame someone is a waste. PArticularly when history is all too likely to judge this as the right war for the wrong reason. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #7 April 1, 2005 that's pretty convenient - we can all hide behind "hindsight" and therefore do whatever we feel is right at the time, regardless of how wrong we might be. how convenient. TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #8 April 1, 2005 QuoteI would like you to stand in front of the families of the 1500+ dead US soldiers and say " Live with it - Move on" What about the families (if any) of the 100.000 Iraqis killed as a concequence of the invasion?HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #9 April 1, 2005 Wait, wait, wait.....one sec.....Bush errs on the side of life....uhmmmm.....the king of executions?.....Bush should be impeached and imprisoned as a criminal.....He went after HS for personal reasons. Even though Saddam is no doubt a bad person, what Bush did puts him in the same category as such. Saddam was contained and not going anywhere. GBs doomday speeches of a nuclear holocaust should be reason enough to impeach him. For Bush to rally the uninformed to go do his dirty work he should be ashamed. I seriously doubt if he tried to rally his own family members to signup. Yet this thug has no problem sending someone elses family member. America is in far greater damger of North Korea and Iran. Not to mention Osma Bin Laden and his cohorts. But the greatest danger of them all is Bush and his gang members. He should be IMPEACHED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Culture of life? Err on the side of life? BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!BUSH IS A MURDERING THUG AND THE EPICENTER OF EVIL!!!!!!!!"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #10 April 1, 2005 Quotethat's pretty convenient - we can all hide behind "hindsight" and therefore do whatever we feel is right at the time, regardless of how wrong we might be. how convenient. Not convenient. Realistic. None of us have a crystal ball or way to see into the future (have we?) so what we HAVE to do is what we honestly believe is right at the time, with the information we have. Beating up on someone else (or yourself) with "IF ONLY" is, IMnvHO a far worse crime than the original mistake - provided the person(s) acted in good faith. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #11 April 1, 2005 Quote and therefore do whatever we feel is right at the time, Exactly. Since we don't have a crystal ball that can peer into the future the best we can do is what we feel is right at the time. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tcnelson 1 #12 April 1, 2005 QuoteBUSH IS A MURDERING THUG AND THE EPICENTER OF EVIL!!!!!!!! BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! objective thinking at its finest! "Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #13 April 1, 2005 Quoteif I get it 'wrong' and a bunch of people die, But if they had it right, and Bush did nothing, and a bunch of people died... who would be screaming "its Bush's fault, he didn't protect us!" Its easy to say the intel was bad, after the fact... but to be paralyzed by it could have worse consequences. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #14 April 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteBUSH IS A MURDERING THUG AND THE EPICENTER OF EVIL!!!!!!!! ***BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! objective thinking at its finest! Come on people, I know from all the past postings that you all can be far more brutal than this. REACTION, I WANT REACTION"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rickjump1 0 #15 April 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteBUSH IS A MURDERING THUG AND THE EPICENTER OF EVIL!!!!!!!! ***BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! objective thinking at its finest! Come on people, I know from all the past postings that you all can be far more brutal than this. REACTION, I WANT REACTION Maybe if they kick a dead horse long enough, their feet will get nice and smelly.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #16 April 1, 2005 QuoteNone of us have a crystal ball or way to see into the future (have we?) Hold on, almost got it...... Damn.. Stupid tachyons. I'm going back to working on that weather control machine. It smells better. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #17 April 1, 2005 What's hysterical is that a LOT of people, INCLUDING people inside the CIA had been saying this all along, but that the Adminsitration wouldn't take no for an answer. That GWB ONLY wanted to see reports that supported his aims toward invasion. Now that it's all gone sour, it's the CIA's fault for providing him the reports. Genius!quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tkhayes 348 #18 April 1, 2005 QuoteBut if they had it right, and Bush did nothing, and a bunch of people died... who would be screaming "its Bush's fault, he didn't protect us!" Its easy to say the intel was bad, after the fact... but to be paralyzed by it could have worse consequences. A 'bunch of people' die every day in this world - seems to me that there are worse dictators, worse genocides, worse situations all over the globe that we do nothing about. Yet Iraq was somehow important? get real TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Casurf1978 0 #19 April 1, 2005 QuoteNow that it's all gone sour, it's the CIA's fault for providing him the reports. Guess the old saying "The buck stops here" doesnt apply to W. Wonder whos going to hang for this report, it sure aint gonna be Bush. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,465 #20 April 1, 2005 Bush doesn't make mistakes. The scary thing isn't that Bush himselve actually believes this. The really scary thing is that his followers really seem to believe that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #21 April 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteif I get it 'wrong' and a bunch of people die, But if they had it right, and Bush did nothing, and a bunch of people died... who would be screaming "its Bush's fault, he didn't protect us!" Its easy to say the intel was bad, after the fact... but to be paralyzed by it could have worse consequences. J Well, I guess that justifies us to blow up any threat we have. The "just in case" theory. There are two valid points in this thread: 1) History will eventually label Bush a failure or if he made the right choice. As it is, the area is not stable, 100k+ people are dead combined, world opinion of our country has suffered, no WMD were found, and over two years later the area is still not contained. and 2) If any other country had made this attack we would have stepped in to try to stop it until there was more proof. After the list of failures and oversights grew there would have been a world court on the issue. Bush wanted to play in the big leagues by continuing the family oil war, he needs to accept the possible consequences of it. Just because an order to attack came from the President of the United States does not preclude it from scrutiny._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freethefly 6 #22 April 1, 2005 ***A 'bunch of people' die every day in this world - seems to me that there are worse dictators, worse genocides, worse situations all over the globe that we do nothing about. Yet Iraq was somehow important? get real TK Darfur comes to mind. The Sudanese Gov. enlisted the Janjawid to commit ethnic cleansing yet feel they are not responsiable for the atrocities committed. Even though trials began earlier in March, who will actually pay for the millions who were murdered. Clinton imposed sanctions and Bush renewed such sanctions annually that did nothing to stop the brutal butchering. Like as you said, "Iraq was somehow important?" and it is clear that the U.S. cares very little about the millions dead at the will of the Sudanese Gov., and somehow Saddam is the worst of them all? The Sudanese Gov. makes Saddam look like a kid merely throwing sticks."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,998 #23 April 1, 2005 >But if they had it right, and Bush did nothing, and a bunch of people >died... who would be screaming "its Bush's fault, he didn't protect us!" Uh, Bush DID have accurate intel before 9/11, and he did nothing, and 3000 people died. A month before the attack Bush was handed a briefing entitled "Bin Laden determined to strike in US" listing airliner hijackings and threats against buildings in NY. He did nothing on that, yet he went to war on sketchy information, information that he knew was inadequate. So ignoring good intel, and then acting on bad intel - sort of a "perfect storm" of screwups. >Its easy to say the intel was bad, after the fact... but to be paralyzed by >it could have worse consequences. Do you subscribe to the "do something! anything! even if it's wrong!" school of international diplomacy, then? We better start attacking Nairobi, then! After all, suppose we don't attack, and there's a terrorist bombing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #24 April 1, 2005 Quotehmmm, if I get it 'wrong' and a bunch of people die, whatever it is, it becomes a criminal offense. Manslaughter, murder, or at least criminal negligence causing death. In the case of war, they call it war crimes. You need to look up the definition of war crimes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,998 #25 April 1, 2005 >You need to look up the definition of war crimes. That's easy. "Any crime committed during wartime against the United States." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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rickjump1 0 #15 April 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteBUSH IS A MURDERING THUG AND THE EPICENTER OF EVIL!!!!!!!! ***BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! objective thinking at its finest! Come on people, I know from all the past postings that you all can be far more brutal than this. REACTION, I WANT REACTION Maybe if they kick a dead horse long enough, their feet will get nice and smelly.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #16 April 1, 2005 QuoteNone of us have a crystal ball or way to see into the future (have we?) Hold on, almost got it...... Damn.. Stupid tachyons. I'm going back to working on that weather control machine. It smells better. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #17 April 1, 2005 What's hysterical is that a LOT of people, INCLUDING people inside the CIA had been saying this all along, but that the Adminsitration wouldn't take no for an answer. That GWB ONLY wanted to see reports that supported his aims toward invasion. Now that it's all gone sour, it's the CIA's fault for providing him the reports. Genius!quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tkhayes 348 #18 April 1, 2005 QuoteBut if they had it right, and Bush did nothing, and a bunch of people died... who would be screaming "its Bush's fault, he didn't protect us!" Its easy to say the intel was bad, after the fact... but to be paralyzed by it could have worse consequences. A 'bunch of people' die every day in this world - seems to me that there are worse dictators, worse genocides, worse situations all over the globe that we do nothing about. Yet Iraq was somehow important? get real TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Casurf1978 0 #19 April 1, 2005 QuoteNow that it's all gone sour, it's the CIA's fault for providing him the reports. Guess the old saying "The buck stops here" doesnt apply to W. Wonder whos going to hang for this report, it sure aint gonna be Bush. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,465 #20 April 1, 2005 Bush doesn't make mistakes. The scary thing isn't that Bush himselve actually believes this. The really scary thing is that his followers really seem to believe that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #21 April 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteif I get it 'wrong' and a bunch of people die, But if they had it right, and Bush did nothing, and a bunch of people died... who would be screaming "its Bush's fault, he didn't protect us!" Its easy to say the intel was bad, after the fact... but to be paralyzed by it could have worse consequences. J Well, I guess that justifies us to blow up any threat we have. The "just in case" theory. There are two valid points in this thread: 1) History will eventually label Bush a failure or if he made the right choice. As it is, the area is not stable, 100k+ people are dead combined, world opinion of our country has suffered, no WMD were found, and over two years later the area is still not contained. and 2) If any other country had made this attack we would have stepped in to try to stop it until there was more proof. After the list of failures and oversights grew there would have been a world court on the issue. Bush wanted to play in the big leagues by continuing the family oil war, he needs to accept the possible consequences of it. Just because an order to attack came from the President of the United States does not preclude it from scrutiny._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freethefly 6 #22 April 1, 2005 ***A 'bunch of people' die every day in this world - seems to me that there are worse dictators, worse genocides, worse situations all over the globe that we do nothing about. Yet Iraq was somehow important? get real TK Darfur comes to mind. The Sudanese Gov. enlisted the Janjawid to commit ethnic cleansing yet feel they are not responsiable for the atrocities committed. Even though trials began earlier in March, who will actually pay for the millions who were murdered. Clinton imposed sanctions and Bush renewed such sanctions annually that did nothing to stop the brutal butchering. Like as you said, "Iraq was somehow important?" and it is clear that the U.S. cares very little about the millions dead at the will of the Sudanese Gov., and somehow Saddam is the worst of them all? The Sudanese Gov. makes Saddam look like a kid merely throwing sticks."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,998 #23 April 1, 2005 >But if they had it right, and Bush did nothing, and a bunch of people >died... who would be screaming "its Bush's fault, he didn't protect us!" Uh, Bush DID have accurate intel before 9/11, and he did nothing, and 3000 people died. A month before the attack Bush was handed a briefing entitled "Bin Laden determined to strike in US" listing airliner hijackings and threats against buildings in NY. He did nothing on that, yet he went to war on sketchy information, information that he knew was inadequate. So ignoring good intel, and then acting on bad intel - sort of a "perfect storm" of screwups. >Its easy to say the intel was bad, after the fact... but to be paralyzed by >it could have worse consequences. Do you subscribe to the "do something! anything! even if it's wrong!" school of international diplomacy, then? We better start attacking Nairobi, then! After all, suppose we don't attack, and there's a terrorist bombing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #24 April 1, 2005 Quotehmmm, if I get it 'wrong' and a bunch of people die, whatever it is, it becomes a criminal offense. Manslaughter, murder, or at least criminal negligence causing death. In the case of war, they call it war crimes. You need to look up the definition of war crimes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,998 #25 April 1, 2005 >You need to look up the definition of war crimes. That's easy. "Any crime committed during wartime against the United States." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
rehmwa 2 #16 April 1, 2005 QuoteNone of us have a crystal ball or way to see into the future (have we?) Hold on, almost got it...... Damn.. Stupid tachyons. I'm going back to working on that weather control machine. It smells better. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #17 April 1, 2005 What's hysterical is that a LOT of people, INCLUDING people inside the CIA had been saying this all along, but that the Adminsitration wouldn't take no for an answer. That GWB ONLY wanted to see reports that supported his aims toward invasion. Now that it's all gone sour, it's the CIA's fault for providing him the reports. Genius!quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #18 April 1, 2005 QuoteBut if they had it right, and Bush did nothing, and a bunch of people died... who would be screaming "its Bush's fault, he didn't protect us!" Its easy to say the intel was bad, after the fact... but to be paralyzed by it could have worse consequences. A 'bunch of people' die every day in this world - seems to me that there are worse dictators, worse genocides, worse situations all over the globe that we do nothing about. Yet Iraq was somehow important? get real TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #19 April 1, 2005 QuoteNow that it's all gone sour, it's the CIA's fault for providing him the reports. Guess the old saying "The buck stops here" doesnt apply to W. Wonder whos going to hang for this report, it sure aint gonna be Bush. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #20 April 1, 2005 Bush doesn't make mistakes. The scary thing isn't that Bush himselve actually believes this. The really scary thing is that his followers really seem to believe that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #21 April 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteif I get it 'wrong' and a bunch of people die, But if they had it right, and Bush did nothing, and a bunch of people died... who would be screaming "its Bush's fault, he didn't protect us!" Its easy to say the intel was bad, after the fact... but to be paralyzed by it could have worse consequences. J Well, I guess that justifies us to blow up any threat we have. The "just in case" theory. There are two valid points in this thread: 1) History will eventually label Bush a failure or if he made the right choice. As it is, the area is not stable, 100k+ people are dead combined, world opinion of our country has suffered, no WMD were found, and over two years later the area is still not contained. and 2) If any other country had made this attack we would have stepped in to try to stop it until there was more proof. After the list of failures and oversights grew there would have been a world court on the issue. Bush wanted to play in the big leagues by continuing the family oil war, he needs to accept the possible consequences of it. Just because an order to attack came from the President of the United States does not preclude it from scrutiny._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #22 April 1, 2005 ***A 'bunch of people' die every day in this world - seems to me that there are worse dictators, worse genocides, worse situations all over the globe that we do nothing about. Yet Iraq was somehow important? get real TK Darfur comes to mind. The Sudanese Gov. enlisted the Janjawid to commit ethnic cleansing yet feel they are not responsiable for the atrocities committed. Even though trials began earlier in March, who will actually pay for the millions who were murdered. Clinton imposed sanctions and Bush renewed such sanctions annually that did nothing to stop the brutal butchering. Like as you said, "Iraq was somehow important?" and it is clear that the U.S. cares very little about the millions dead at the will of the Sudanese Gov., and somehow Saddam is the worst of them all? The Sudanese Gov. makes Saddam look like a kid merely throwing sticks."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #23 April 1, 2005 >But if they had it right, and Bush did nothing, and a bunch of people >died... who would be screaming "its Bush's fault, he didn't protect us!" Uh, Bush DID have accurate intel before 9/11, and he did nothing, and 3000 people died. A month before the attack Bush was handed a briefing entitled "Bin Laden determined to strike in US" listing airliner hijackings and threats against buildings in NY. He did nothing on that, yet he went to war on sketchy information, information that he knew was inadequate. So ignoring good intel, and then acting on bad intel - sort of a "perfect storm" of screwups. >Its easy to say the intel was bad, after the fact... but to be paralyzed by >it could have worse consequences. Do you subscribe to the "do something! anything! even if it's wrong!" school of international diplomacy, then? We better start attacking Nairobi, then! After all, suppose we don't attack, and there's a terrorist bombing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #24 April 1, 2005 Quotehmmm, if I get it 'wrong' and a bunch of people die, whatever it is, it becomes a criminal offense. Manslaughter, murder, or at least criminal negligence causing death. In the case of war, they call it war crimes. You need to look up the definition of war crimes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #25 April 1, 2005 >You need to look up the definition of war crimes. That's easy. "Any crime committed during wartime against the United States." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
