American Prison Statistics

[rehmwa 2]

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>Which is funny, if they are more efficient, shouldn't they be in the slow lanes?

Why? A hybrid doing 80mph is getting 40mpg. You'd have to be going 30mph to get that sort of mileage in most cars. Perhaps you could have a "slow lane" for larger vehicles . . .

Any car gets 0 MPH when stuck at a standstill - at that point, we're talking gallons per minute (GPM) at an idle condition (stop and go traffic) instead of MPH.

So the more efficient car would be the choice to put in the stop and go traffic - if we really cared about consumption of the world's resources and not special treatment for a socially engineered behavior........

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

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So the more efficient car would be the choice to put in the stop and go traffic - if we really cared about consumption of the world's resources and not special treatment for a socially engineered behavior........

No, if we REALLY cared, we'd make the hybrid (or 40mpg by another method) engine mandatory for all, rather than just give them a carrot so the rest of us can drive Dodges getting 14mpg.

Seems like a nasty form of socialism to put the people that spent an extra couple thousand into the slowest lane. Hybrids aren't free, nor are bikes or carpools. They carry a higher price than driving alone in a private steel cage.

[skydyvr 0]

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>Which is funny, if they are more efficient, shouldn't they be in the slow lanes?

Why? A hybrid doing 80mph is getting 40mpg. You'd have to be going 30mph to get that sort of mileage in most cars. Perhaps you could have a "slow lane" for larger vehicles . . .

DUDE...we get it--you've got a hybrid. Haven't you grown weary of patting yourself on the back yet?

Billvon, what kind of hybrid do you have? I am on a waiting list for a Prius.

. . =(_8^(1)

[billvon 3,070]

>Billvon, what kind of hybrid do you have?

A prius and a civic hybrid. I just discovered the prius will run on a 40% ethanol/60% gasoline mix.

[EBSB52 0]

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More than 8% of the entire black male population is incarcerated in the US on any given day. The report just mentions "An estimated 12.6 percent of all black men in their late 20s were in jails or prisons".

If that isn't indicative of a systemic problem in our society, I don't know what is.

Edited to add: maybe this has something to do with it: Under federal law, dealing five grams of crack cocaine (favored in poor black communities) gets a first offender a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. 500g of powder cocaine (favored in affluent white communities) is needed to get the same sentence. That's a 100:1 disparity.

Edited to add: maybe this has something to do with it: Under federal law, dealing five grams of crack cocaine (favored in poor black communities) gets a first offender a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. 500g of powder cocaine (favored in affluent white communities) is needed to get the same sentence. That's a 100:1 disparity.
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As a justice major we beat this one to death. Very true and very indicative.

[EBSB52 0]

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But when you compare the US with other nations and realize we are worse with incarceration rates than most other nations, land of the free, then it becomes worse. Compile that with the fact that most or all prisons are run by corporations and it gets much worse. It smells of gross Fascism and I don't want a corp to define the 8th Amendment based upon some standard of profit.

Next question would be that of how many of the 2.1 mill are innocent and how many are poor and couldn't afford anything but a court appointed attny.

And what the hell does a corporation running the operation of a prison have to do with conviction rates, the interpretation of the Bill of Rights or legal defense?

Sorry, EBS - your whole "Fascist America" byline is worn out from trying to stretch it to cover too many things - this one doesn't fly.

And what the hell does a corporation running the operation of a prison have to do with conviction rates, the interpretation of the Bill of Rights or legal defense?

Don't convolute the whole thing. Corps running prisons means the corps are largely responsible for upholding 8th (and others) Amendment protections on the front end and I don't think they have the interest to do that. Profits and Const protections are strangers.

Now, the as for "conviction rates," the original post spoke of the gross number of people in jail/prison. It did not make mention of the incarceration rate, but you took the original post and expounded on it slightly, which is how conversation works. Now you have a problem that I take yours and expound it a bit. You're trying to establish a gross tangent, but there is none. I understand that you get defensive when people illustrate how this country could be crap, but in some ways it is - deal with it. Not to Ad Hominem, but you ae from Texas so I'm not surprised to read your responses.

Sorry, EBS - your whole "Fascist America" byline is worn out from trying to stretch it to cover too many things - this one doesn't fly.


Huh? If you understood Fascism you wouldn't assert that. Fascism is the comming together of corporation and government to have 1 agenda. Unfortunately the corporations tend to make the majority of the decisions and put profit before protections. IF corps decided it would be beneficial to revoke the 2nd or limit it to be very restricive, you would likely blame some liberal agenda. The truth would probably be that the legislation initiates like most current (and last 20 years) legislation does, and that's with teh proding of some corporation.

Now, what corps that run prisons do is to make the prisoners work for virtually nothing, or get to leave their cell 1 hour per week. If there was some rehabilitative notion to this I could almost stomach it, but the intent is to create a huge prison population to work for free. I wonder who motivated thimngs like "Truth in sentencing?" Keeping people (slaves) i9n prison longer helps the bottom line.

Acquiescence is a beautiful thing

[EBSB52 0]

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And what the hell does a corporation running the operation of a prison have to do with conviction rates

Thank you for writing what I thought. Corporations (he used the products of dozens if not hundreds of corporations just to make that post) are not inherently evil.

Oooh, smells of fascism. Somehow, I don't recall corporations being the evildoers in WWII....

(he used the products of dozens if not hundreds of corporations just to make that post)

And that's the other side of the agument: Corps bring us jobs, products, and many things; how can they be evil? In the strict, focused aspect of jobs and products they are fine, but when they want to kill the environment and get away with it or treat their employees like crap and persuade the gov to crap on citizens in favor of corps then that muddies the whole thing.

The Overtime Law, the Bankruptcy Law, Seat Belt and Insurance Laws of the 80's and now Social Securoty Reform all benefit the corps with some incidental benefit for people in a peripheral context. The intent of these laws is to help corporate bottom lines. Oh, how about tax breaks for corps outsourcing jobs????

Oooh, smells of fascism. Somehow, I don't recall corporations being the evildoers in WWII....

Right, the enemy was Fascist..... Italy in case you didn't figure it out. The enemy was also Imperialist, Japan. Funny how we've become what we heroically destroyed.

I don't know your age, but remember when the gov wanted a severance between corps and would genrally never allow major corps to merge? Well, Boeing/Douglas and some IT corps have done it many times since the 80's. If the gov wanted competition they wouldn't have done that, but corps and the gov aren't competing, they're all working together.

[EBSB52 0]

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And many other wise people realize that there are many innocent people in jail/prison.

I'm sure there are some innocent people in prison, however, there are many many more guilty people there. The system isn't perfect (and you won't find one that is), but I think it does a pretty good job.

Of course, the vast majority of people in prison are guilty and some need to be there the rest of their lives for the safety of society. But if you're one of the many innocent in there and someone else is fucking your wife and raising your kids, well, those numbers don't matter do they?

Is there more injustice in freeing by way of failing to convict the guilty or by jailing innocent people? This, "convict at all costs" prosecutorial mentality is what drives this, as well as many dirty cops.

[EBSB52 0]

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I agree with you 100% doing 10-15 mph or maybe a little more on a long run and on the open road is perfectly aceptable
The impatent driver ie: the weaver is a danger to every one around him
I have a switch installed which I can turn on the brake/stop lights, When I see a weaver behind me I touch the switch an watch his hood take a dive from the panic braking.

And so when you do that and he swerves and hits other people, or realizes what you did and gets inches frok your ass, you are now pat of the equation/problem. If something happens and the cops/prosecutors figure it out, you'll be tried along with him for the same crime (if someone gets hurt/dies).

Your little switch IS a tool of roadrage and will liley spark an issue/incident sometime.

[EBSB52 0]

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>Which is funny, if they are more efficient, shouldn't they be in the slow lanes?

Why? A hybrid doing 80mph is getting 40mpg. You'd have to be going 30mph to get that sort of mileage in most cars. Perhaps you could have a "slow lane" for larger vehicles . . .

Any car gets 0 MPH when stuck at a standstill - at that point, we're talking gallons per minute (GPM) at an idle condition (stop and go traffic) instead of MPH.

So the more efficient car would be the choice to put in the stop and go traffic - if we really cared about consumption of the world's resources and not special treatment for a socially engineered behavior........

Totally agree and have a driving competency test that actually requires vision and some sort of ability to put the car into a slide/skid and recover.

The cops love speedlimits, lights and other traffic control devices - it allows them to catch people more easily and distinguishes the "good guys" from the "bad guys" in their mind.

[EBSB52 0]

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So the more efficient car would be the choice to put in the stop and go traffic - if we really cared about consumption of the world's resources and not special treatment for a socially engineered behavior........

No, if we REALLY cared, we'd make the hybrid (or 40mpg by another method) engine mandatory for all, rather than just give them a carrot so the rest of us can drive Dodges getting 14mpg.

Seems like a nasty form of socialism to put the people that spent an extra couple thousand into the slowest lane. Hybrids aren't free, nor are bikes or carpools. They carry a higher price than driving alone in a private steel cage.

It's not about MPG, it's about staging traffic so that the slower traffic is where the merging occurs. It's about safely constructing traffic behavior.

[Steel 0]

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>Which is funny, if they are more efficient, shouldn't they be in the slow lanes?

Why? A hybrid doing 80mph is getting 40mpg. You'd have to be going 30mph to get that sort of mileage in most cars. Perhaps you could have a "slow lane" for larger vehicles . . .

A hybrid only does 40 miles to that gallon? that sucks, a geo will do more and go faster. For that matter my bike does better gas mileage than that and its a rocket by comparison. Oh well if haveing a hybrid makes you feel good, then all the power to you.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[lawrocket 3]

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but remember when the gov wanted a severance between corps and would genrally never allow major corps to merge?

Yep. I do. That's when Ma Bell was a monopoly. Then the gubment broke it up. We see all of our phone choices now.

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Boeing/Douglas and some IT corps have done it many times since the 80's.

Yep. When the government figured out all the tax money it could get there was not such a big problem anymore. On top of that, mergers are better for the economy than one company simply going out of business.

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but corps and the gov aren't competing, they're all working together.

That's right. Which corporation is the big dog in the world? The US government. That's right. They are in it for the money and the power. The US government always wants to know, "What can you do for me?" When corps say, "I'll add a few million to your treasury" the gov says, "Cool. Whaddya need?"

Don't blame corporations. Blame the government...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[skydyvr 0]

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>Billvon, what kind of hybrid do you have?

A prius and a civic hybrid. I just discovered the prius will run on a 40% ethanol/60% gasoline mix.

. . . nice, too bad that mix isn't readily available at the gas station though. I can't wait to get my new Prius!

. . =(_8^(1)

[rehmwa 2]

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No, if we REALLY cared, we'd make the hybrid (or 40mpg by another method) engine mandatory for all, rather than just give them a carrot so the rest of us can drive Dodges getting 14mpg.

Seems like a nasty form of socialism to put the people that spent an extra couple thousand into the slowest lane. Hybrids aren't free, nor are bikes or carpools. They carry a higher price than driving alone in a private steel cage.

That's funny, I'm talking about the net effect of conserving fuel based on people's choices and you talk about: 1 - MAKING everyone buy a certain type of car and ; 2 - the PRICE of doing something. Yet (hard to be sure with the wording but I think) you're calling my statements a 'nasty form of socialism'.

frankly, I think car pool lanes in any form are a crappy social experiment that should be laid to rest. But if we have them, let's use them to conserve resources, not reward an arbitrary form of behavior or marketing choices

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

You wanted to alter the system to punish those who could spend extra to get a hybrid engine or carpool. Yep, sounds like redistribution of wealth.

OTOH, mandating a higher CAFE standard is not remotely similar. That doesn't force a certain type of car by any means. There are quite a few vehicle types that can get 40mpg. Virtually all can do 30.

Carpool lanes take vehicles off the highway, and out of the parking lot. You benefit from their presence. By how much depends of course upon the rate of use. Those approaching the Bay Bridge leading to San Francisco, with a 3 person min, are an indisputable gain. At peak, more people flow through the few HOV lanes than all the others combined.

So if the goal is to conserve resources, how is it arbitrary to reward 2 or 3 or 4 people for taking one car instead of one each? That's not what arbitrary means.

OTOH, sending the least fuel efficient vehicles to the free flowing lane while sending the most efficient to the slow lane is the stupidest solution I've ever heard on the subject. The car population is not a static one - people make their buying choices based on the rules at hand. Your's would have them getting the 6000lb vehicles and reward them for their self centered thinking.

We're past the point where every citizen can waste gas without affecting anyone else. Every person's share of Iraq this year is $1000 (saying 300B). This is in great part about oil. Yet those who consume 3 times as much fuel as I do pay the same amount. I'd rather see a $1/gallon tax applied. When people start paying the true price of fuel, then we'll see better informed decisions on usage, and on foreign policy.

And what did this have to do with prisons? LOL

[kelpdiver 2]

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It's not about MPG, it's about staging traffic so that the slower traffic is where the merging occurs. It's about safely constructing traffic behavior.

You're confusing two separate conversations. One about fuel economy and car pool lanes, the other about safe versus dangerous speeding.

BTW, you have declared as fact that prisons are a corporate run concept, but haven't established that most are in fact privately run. You're flat out wrong in suggesting all are. Not the case in California. I know Texas has many private prisons, but I wonder how many states do.

[JohnRich 4]

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But when you compare the US with other nations and realize we are worse with incarceration rates than most other nations, land of the free, then it becomes worse.

Heard on the radio today that 20% of our prison population is illegal aliens...

So, if we just secured our borders, we could reduce our prison population by one-fifth.

By being "the land of the free" accepting illegal immigrants, we're setting ourselves up for all those illegal immigrant criminals too.

[rehmwa 2]

You're all about social behavior and experiments and are serious about it.

I was being flip and teasing with Billvon and (was) having fun.

Lay off the caffiene. I'll sign off on this one.

Edit: And to be fully serious - ESBD is dead on about intelligent construction of merge points to avoid traffic conditions being more important than any stupid carpool lane regardless of how it's implemented.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,106]

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But when you compare the US with other nations and realize we are worse with incarceration rates than most other nations, land of the free, then it becomes worse.

Heard on the radio today that 20% of our prison population is illegal aliens...

So, if we just secured our borders, we could reduce our prison population by one-fifth.

By being "the land of the free" accepting illegal immigrants, we're setting ourselves up for all those illegal immigrant criminals too.

I thought the latest idea was to legalize them through some kind of a "guest" program.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[hymandd732 0]

I just read that there is a move to issue condoms in prison. Not a bad idea when you realize that most of these animals engage in anal sex and are HIV positive and will be released to infect innocent people. I do not believe any prisoner who is HIV positive whould ever be released to the civilian world. Put them on an island like they used to do lepers.

Freefall Hall

[EBSB52 0]

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I just read that there is a move to issue condoms in prison. Not a bad idea when you realize that most of these animals engage in anal sex and are HIV positive and will be released to infect innocent people. I do not believe any prisoner who is HIV positive whould ever be released to the civilian world. Put them on an island like they used to do lepers.

Not a bad idea when you realize that most of these animals engage in anal sex ..

Based upon what knowledge?

...and are HIV positive ...

HUH?

I do not believe any prisoner who is HIV positive whould ever be released to the civilian world.

So when their sentence is up, retaon them in prison on what doctrine/law, etc?

Put them on an island like they used to do lepers.

Lepracy is highly contageous just by being in the same room as another person, essentially. AIDS/HIV is not that contageous, just don't have sex with that person. This is obvious knowledge, so I'm not trying to reveal any unknown fact here.

As for being moe cruel in punishment, the US just quit killing kids a couple months ago, maybe it pains you, but I think the hopes are we go the other direction in regard to the severity of our punishment. We have one of the highest incarceration rates in the world, so I don't think we need to become more abusive.

[Kennedy 0]

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[billvon 3,070]

>A hybrid only does 40 miles to that gallon?

At 80mph. At ~60mph I get around 60mpg in the Civic hybrid. Record for the round trip to the DZ (130 mi) is 66mpg.