No prosecution for colonel on Abu Ghraib abuse

[Darius11 12]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7820741/

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But Pappas reprimanded for OK of unapproved interrogation method
The Associated Press
Updated: 6:10 p.m. ET May 11, 2005
WASHINGTON - The Army reprimanded and fined a colonel who was in charge of an intelligence unit at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq during the period of prisoner abuse, but the service chose not to press criminal charges, an official said Wednesday.

Col. Thomas M. Pappas, commander of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, based in Germany, had faced the possibility of criminal prosecution under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, but a two-star general instead administered what the military calls nonjudicial punishment.
Pappas is among the highest-ranking officers whose actions have been scrutinized in the abuse scandal. Only one general — Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski — has been punished. She was demoted to colonel.
The question of whether Pappas would be relieved of his command had not been settled Wednesday, according to an Army official who discussed the matter only on condition of anonymity because it had not been publicly announced.
Faulted for dereliction of duty
Pappas was not accused of ordering abuse or participating in it, but the Army said some soldiers under his command were involved and he was faulted for two instances of dereliction of duty.
Maj. Gen. Bennie Williams, who decided not to press criminal charges, ordered Pappas to repay $8,000 in salary and gave him an official letter of reprimand. Taken together the penalties essentially stop him from being promoted in rank and thus hasten the end of his career.
Pappas had the option of refusing the nonjudicial punishment and contesting the allegations in a court-martial, but he chose not to, the Army official said.
The Army said it verified a finding by previous Army investigations that Pappas had failed to obtain approval from superior commanders before authorizing an unsanctioned interrogation method: the presence of military dogs during interrogations as a method of scaring prisoners.
The Army also said Pappas was derelict in his duties by failing to ensure that soldiers under his command were informed of, trained in and supervised in the application of interrogation procedures.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[JohnRich 4]

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The Army reprimanded and fined a colonel who was in charge of an intelligence unit at Abu Ghraib prison...

So? Do you have some comment to make on that story? If you thought it important enough to post, I would think that you have something to say about it.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

Yep, the top brass got away! Those poor people on the bottom took the entire rap........poor suckers!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[christelsabine 1]

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The Army reprimanded and fined a colonel who was in charge of an intelligence unit at Abu Ghraib prison...

So? Do you have some comment to make on that story? If you thought it important enough to post, I would think that you have something to say about it.

Perhaps he should have started with the explaining_all_introduction: "In the news" like others do many times?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[diverborg 0]

I think it's sad that the low ranking soldiers took the crap for this. But why did this prison scandal make such big news anyway. Were talking about people that will saw anybody's head off with a butter knife including aid workers. So what if we humiliated them or scared them. I'm all for the geneva convention, but it has to be applied both ways. If they're not going to follow it, why should we. I do believe we should still follow it, but this scandal is so ridiculous to even compare to the horrendous acts that they've completed.

[JohnRich 4]

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But why did this prison scandal make such big news anyway.

Bingo! Because the liberal media love to make Bush's war look bad.

The worst this guy seems to have done was allow dogs to be present around prisoners. Gosh, how horrible. They might be scared and actually behave themselves! Oh, the horror!

[wmw999 2,447]

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If they're not going to follow it, why should we. I do believe we should still follow it, but this scandal is so ridiculous to even compare to the horrendous acts that they've completed.

We follow it because, as a country, we said we would. If an American non-combatant were to murder Iraqis, it wouldn't be an institutional thing. But Abu Ghraib was a representative of the US. As such, they were bound by the rules we said we were bound by.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[JohnRich 4]

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Perhaps he should have started with the explaining_all_introduction: "In the news" like others do many times?

I do use that often, because that introduces my subject, and explains where it comes from, so that no one thinks that it is my own writing. Then, after the introduction, I also go on to support or defend my subject matter. When I start a thread, I stick around to defend my position.

So, your comment doesn't really say anything, as usual. Even if he had started with "In the news", it wouldn't have done anything towards contributing his own personal opinion.

[03CLS 0]

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But why did this prison scandal make such big news anyway.

Bingo! Because the liberal media love to make Bush's war look bad.

The worst this guy seems to have done was allow dogs to be present around prisoners. Gosh, how horrible. They might be scared and actually behave themselves! Oh, the horror!

FOX news covered this story day and night so stop with the liberal media shit....And this story made news because a bunch of dicks were acting like it and the person in command should pay just as much, but shit rolls down hill.

[WeakMindedFool 0]

Come on now, you know it's those liberals! Don't be silly, GWB is a good man, he wouldn't let anything bad happen. Not like that nasty Clinton!

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[Darius11 12]

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Perhaps he should have started with the explaining_all_introduction: "In the news" like others do many times?

I do use that often, because that introduces my subject, and explains where it comes from, so that no one thinks that it is my own writing. Then, after the introduction, I also go on to support or defend my subject matter. When I start a thread, I stick around to defend my position.

So, your comment doesn't really say anything, as usual. Even if he had started with "In the news", it wouldn't have done anything towards contributing his own personal opinion.

What in the world would make you think that I would EVER want to follow your lead in any thing?


You do it your way I’ll do mine.
I know we don’t agree about any thing that has to do with politics but do you really think every one should follow YOURWAY when starting a thread too.

That’s says a lot about how open your mind is. No wonder I have such a hard time reasoning with some people on here.
It’s a fucking thread dude. About news that I thought should be mentioned. Last time I checked your name was not in green thank god and HH for that.

Oh one more thing the article is from MSN i did post a link.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Alias 0]

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Were talking about people that will saw anybody's head off with a butter knife including aid workers.

The majority of the "prisoners" ,several thousand, including women and teen-agers—were civilians, many of whom had been picked up in random military sweeps and at highway checkpoints. They fell into three loosely defined categories: common criminals; security detainees suspected of “crimes against the coalition”; and a small number of suspected “high-value” leaders of the insurgency against the coalition forces

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I'm all for the geneva convention, but it has to be applied both ways.

Remeber that not everyone in Abu were "terrorists", many were innocent civilians "swept up"....

I'm just playing devils advocate here. We do need to maintain a standard.

I'm just not hip on actions like breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees, beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair, allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell and sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick..There is the battered face of a prisoner and the bloodied body of another prisoner, wrapped in cellophane and packed in ice. There is a photograph of an empty room, splattered with blood.

The rest os the BS about the sex, Koran and dogs barking, nakedness is bullshit - who cares? Got no problem there

..I'd just like to see some sort of procedures here instead of a "do what we want to these people who would cut out heads off with butter knives". Remember, some might be/are innocent civilians.

I know, war is a bitch

Carpe Diem

[vpozzoli 0]

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The Army reprimanded and fined a colonel who was in charge of an intelligence unit at Abu Ghraib prison...

So? Do you have some comment to make on that story? If you thought it important enough to post, I would think that you have something to say about it.

Perhaps he should have started with the explaining_all_introduction: "In the news" like others do many times?

You got it worng as usual
What's really missing is some pointless final comment such as 'You go colonel!'



Vale

[diverborg 0]

The majority of the "prisoners" ,several thousand, including women and teen-agers—were civilians, many of whom had been picked up in random military sweeps and at highway checkpoints

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I can't necessarily argue this because I truly don't know, but I do have a hard time believing this. I've never heard this before, and I can't understand why the US is going to waste their time and resources picking up random civilians, filling the jails, and question them endlessly if there are so many actual enemies out there. I'm sure there are a some detainees that are innocent, but this is war and not everything is going to be perfect if you want to win. I do still believe the geneva convention should be followed, but the majority of what was in the news was a joke and should have never made light.

These other instances you speak of about the beatings and torture. I've heard very little about this and question the sources. I would like to research it more before I made any judgements.

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[Alias 0]

Fair enough. The example with the dead prisoners are documented with photo's - One was Prisoner No. 153399

Google it and I'm sure you will see comments on the court tanscripts as I did.

Again, I have no problem with "giving the enemy hell" but SOME procedures should be followed and examples given during the Article 32 hearing against Chip Frederick shows they weren't:

In November, Frederick wrote, an Iraqi prisoner under the control of what the Abu Ghraib guards called “O.G.A.,” or other government agencies—that is, the C.I.A. and its paramilitary employees—was brought to his unit for questioning. “They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. . . . The next day the medics came and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV in his arm and took him away.” The dead Iraqi was never entered into the prison’s inmate-control system, Frederick recounted, “and therefore never had a number.”

Crap like this seems unexceptable to me - If these certain detainees's pose such a threat, drugem and lets hear the truth - torture? Not sure about that

Carpe Diem

[diverborg 0]

Yeah, I won't really disagree with you on this if its true, but the occurences I was referring to when I made the post were the "standing naked, barking dogs, koran, mental breakdown."
If the CIA is responsible for these other "torture" instances, then why haven't we hung them instead of these poor military grunts. Something isn't adding up, we are pointing fingers in the wrong direction.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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I think it's sad that the low ranking soldiers took the crap for this. But why did this prison scandal make such big news anyway. Were talking about people that will saw anybody's head off with a butter knife including aid workers. So what if we humiliated them or scared them. I'm all for the geneva convention, but it has to be applied both ways. If they're not going to follow it, why should we. I do believe we should still follow it, but this scandal is so ridiculous to even compare to the horrendous acts that they've completed.

So. When one side stops, then everyone should? Application of the the Geneva convention does not require pairs of participants.

Terrorists use suicide bombers to kill everyone...women, children, etc. Since they do that, why shouldn't we just start bombing indiscriminantly instead of TRYING to take out valid opposition targets. I mean, they don't care, so why should we?

That train of thought leads only to derailment.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[diverborg 0]

I agree with you, it was a poorly written post. I don't feel that we should forsake the geneva convention just because the enemy has. I was just trying to make the point of how minor our "infractions" were compared to those of who were dealing with who give it no regard. I just don't understand what the big fuss was all about.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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I agree with you, it was a poorly written post. I don't feel that we should forsake the geneva convention just because the enemy has. I was just trying to make the point of how minor our "infractions" were compared to those of who were dealing with who give it no regard. I just don't understand what the big fuss was all about.

Because there has to a be a point where someone says, "Hey, that is wrong."

People can say it is because Bush is president, but I don't think so. The actions of the people in Abu Ghraib were not proper, under any president.

I think the fact that it is a big deal is the pictures. If they did not exist, it would have been written off.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Alias 0]

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So. When one side stops, then everyone should? Application of the the Geneva convention does not require pairs of participants.

Terrorists use suicide bombers to kill everyone...women, children, etc. Since they do that, why shouldn't we just start bombing indiscriminantly instead of TRYING to take out valid opposition targets. I mean, they don't care, so why should we?

We are Americans - not a border line third world culture where our standards will never apply - we are different or should be! I feel proud of some of the standards the US has over other countries and cultures - to lower ourselves is not the answer IMHO

"that train of thought leads only to derailment".

[JohnnyD 0]

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The worst this guy seems to have done was allow dogs to be present around prisoners. Gosh, how horrible. They might be scared and actually behave themselves! Oh, the horror!

Yes, and it was authorized by superiors all the way up to the current AG. I think it is sad that the guys on the low end of the totem pole who were just trying to do their jobs are the ones taking the fall. It makes me angry that people will call you an American bashing coward for even questioning the administration or the actions of the troops and then turn a blind eye when we imprison and ruin the lives of our own troops who were following orders and taking actions that were expressly condoned. I am having a very hard time reconciling this.

[Alias 0]

The majority of the lower role players, had very limited training in this stuff. One was "in charge" only becuase he was a prison guard in the states....and we all know they are perfect

Lack of training might be the major cause of some, stepping over the line due to lack of control, others.

Carpe Diem

[JohnnyD 0]

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The majority of the lower role players, had very limited training in this stuff. One was "in charge" only becuase he was a prison guard in the states....and we all know they are perfect

Lack of training might be the major cause of some, stepping over the line due to lack of control, others.

What about just following orders?
Having been in the military, I don't buy that these guys just took it upon themselves to do all this without any instruction. Especially when some of the techniques were expressly condoned.

[tigra 0]

Because we've told the world we are "better" than that, plain and simple.

The truth is, if the top brass didn't know about it and order it, they still allowed it to happen under their watch. Frankly, I'm STILL not sure which is worse, and I do feel they should be held accountable.

[Alias 0]

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The majority of the lower role players, had very limited training in this stuff. One was "in charge" only becuase he was a prison guard in the states....and we all know they are perfect

Lack of training might be the major cause of some, stepping over the line due to lack of control, others.

What about just following orders?
Having been in the military, I don't buy that these guys just took it upon themselves to do all this without any instruction. Especially when some of the techniques were expressly condoned.

Last June, Janis Karpinski, an Army reserve brigadier general, was named commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade and put in charge of military prisons in Iraq. General Karpinski, the only female commander in the war zone, was an experienced operations and intelligence officer who had served with the Special Forces and in the 1991 Gulf War, but she had never run a prison system. Now she was in charge of three large jails, eight battalions, and thirty-four hundred Army reservists, most of whom, like her, had no training in handling prisoners.

The Army investigators said that Frederick and his colleagues had not been given any “training guidelines” that he was aware of. The M.P.s in the 372nd had been assigned to routine traffic and police duties upon their arrival in Iraq, in the spring of 2003. In October of 2003, the 372nd was ordered to prison-guard duty at Abu Ghraib.

Last fall, General Sanchez ordered a review of the prison system in Iraq and recommend ways to improve it. Ryder’s report, filed on November 5th, concluded that there were potential human-rights, training, and manpower issues, system-wide, that needed immediate attention. It also discussed serious concerns about the tension between the missions of the military police assigned to guard the prisoners and the intelligence teams who wanted to interrogate them. Army regulations limit intelligence activity by the M.P.s to passive collection. But something had gone wrong at Abu Ghraib.

I think it was a mixture - professional interrogators, abuse ordered and abuse by individuals without orders. There is eveidence that suggests a mess all around.

Carpe Diem