Darius11 12 #26 May 16, 2005 a crusade Is a holy war. And The crusades were holy wars. GWB has made a bunch of references to god and what he believes god told him to spread freedom. It would be great if we could spread freedom with out killing a bunch of people.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #27 May 16, 2005 So is the fight against cancer or environmentalism a holy war? http://www.cheshirect.org/aboutcheshire/crusadeforcancer.html http://www.figu.org/us/overpopulation/crusade/1.htm http://www.ohiocitizen.org/campaigns/wti/question.htm The only time you hear crusade used to describe a holy war is in an historical context, and now apparently exclusively when GWB uses the word (however ineptly). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #28 May 16, 2005 So is the fight against cancer or environmentalism a holy war? Quote Do you really need me to answer that or your just looking to be picky so you have something to argue about? GWB has said God has told him to spread freedom. He has called other countries Evil- not dangerous-not terrorist but Evil. Do you need a definition of what Evil means? You can argue all you want. GWBmore then a couple times has referenced God as his divine guidance.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #29 May 16, 2005 QuoteYou can argue all you want. GWBmore then a couple times has referenced God as his divine guidance. Do you, as a Muslim, not seek divine guidance from God? If so, why is GWB wrong for doing the same? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #30 May 16, 2005 You seek to redefine language on your own terms, it won't fly. Sure Bush is a man of professed faith and has called a few despotic regimes an axis of evil, at the same time he's drawn a distinction between the regime and the people. None of this bolsters your very serious attempt to claim he intended the word Crusade to mean holy war. He was talking explicitly about a struggle/war against terrorism in the large and a new kind of evil as he called it. He's right terrorism is evil and we should crusade against it and wage war upon those who espouse and support it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #31 May 16, 2005 Do you, as a Muslim, not seek divine guidance from God? If so, why is GWB wrong for doing the same? *** I am not the leader of the most powerful country in the world, that claims to have the separation of church and state.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #32 May 16, 2005 QuoteDo you, as a Muslim, not seek divine guidance from God? If so, why is GWB wrong for doing the same? *** I am not the leader of the most powerful country in the world, that claims to have the separation of church and state. So your excuse is you're irrelevant? Separation of church and state does not exclude people of faith from serving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #33 May 16, 2005 QuoteYou seek to redefine language on your own terms, it won't fly. Sure Bush is a man of professed faith and has called a few despotic regimes an axis of evil, at the same time he's drawn a distinction between the regime and the people. None of this bolsters your very serious attempt to claim he intended the word Crusade to mean holy war. He was talking explicitly about a struggle/war against terrorism in the large and a new kind of evil as he called it. He's right terrorism is evil and we should crusade against it and wage war upon those who espouse and support it. No one is redefining the language. It is quite simple. GW was talking about religious countries and waging war on them in his speeches. He was not talking about cancer was he??? So in that context and in most contexts a crusade would be translated as a holy war. You seem to look for the one point that would agree with you and not see the other 100 points that make your argument false.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #34 May 16, 2005 Separation of church and state does not exclude people of faith from serving. Quote No but it does exclude you from bringing your belief to your job. So your excuse is you're irrelevant? *** If you want to upset me or make me mad you are barking up the wrong tree. I only get upset when people I care about make comments. That does not include you. But if you do need me to explain the obvious I will explain calmly.My personal life and decisions are not a topic on this form, and will never be. I hope that is clear enough.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #35 May 16, 2005 Oops. Just another example of shoddy journalism. They are so quick to believe anything anti-American, and publish it without verification. But when it comes to retractions, they can't do that yet, because they have rigid standards to meet! If only they would put as much effort into their stories up front, as they do with retractions. Newsweek's Response Excerpt: "we regret that we got any part of our story wrong, and extend our sympathies to victims of the violence and to the U.S. soldiers caught in its midst." Of course the Islamic extremists will continue to believe the original story, and will disregard the now-revealed truth as just a lie being perpetrated to try and cover-up the desecration. It's time to immediately confiscate all the religious books and prayer rugs that we freely provided to all prisoners of war. If they don't have 'em, they can't claim that we abused 'em. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #36 May 16, 2005 QuoteIt would be great if we could spread freedom with out killing a bunch of people. It would be great if the Muslims could practice their religion without killing a bunch of people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #37 May 16, 2005 Quote You seem to look for the one point that would agree with you and not see the other 100 points that make your argument false. You don't have 100 points, just a single archaic interpretation of a commonly used word. A word that in my lifetime I've only seen to mean holy war in a very specific historical context. All other countless times in a contemporary context it has meant a struggle. That you actually seriously claim that Bush meant "holy war" says it all really, it's utterly ludicrous, so you use the fact that he's Christian and has rightly called terrorism evil and it's supporters evil to justify a your claim. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #38 May 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteIt would be great if we could spread freedom with out killing a bunch of people. It would be great if the Muslims could practice their religion without killing a bunch of people. If we leave them be maybe they’ll stop. If we keep fucking with peoples countries, religion and freedoms then what goes around will go around, and around, and around.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #39 May 16, 2005 QuoteIf we leave them be maybe they’ll stop. They need to quit flying Air Liners into office buildings first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #40 May 16, 2005 That you actually seriously claim that Bush meant "holy war" says it all really, it's utterly ludicrous, so you use the fact that he's Christian and has rightly called terrorism evil and it's supporters evil to justify a your claim. *** Just so you know it was not just me who interpreted crusade as holy war in the context the president used it. There was quite an uproar but then again maybe everyone is wrong and you are right.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #41 May 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf we leave them be maybe they’ll stop. They need to quit flying Air Liners into office buildings first. We need stop sleeping in the same bed as who we call Evil don't you think?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #42 May 16, 2005 of course he didn't mean a holy war! It was a stupid blunder because he was talking to representatives of Muslim countries at the time he made his speech asking their help vs. terrorism. He should have kept in mind that he was talking to Muslims, and not used the term "Crusade". Its not important whether it means this or that in an American English dictionary. Bush should have been SMART enough to realize the connotation among Muslims & Arabs! Of course he didn't do it deliberately, he was just a blundering idiot. You just would expect the leader of the most powerful nation on earth to have a little tact & sophistication when dealing with other nations. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #43 May 16, 2005 I can agree that yes your right GWB is not a smart man. I think his actions show what he meant.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #44 May 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteIt would be great if we could spread freedom with out killing a bunch of people. It would be great if the Muslims could practice their religion without killing a bunch of people. If we leave them be maybe they’ll stop. You should have noticed that lately in Iraq, the so-called "insurgents" are mostly killing their fellow Muslims. That kind of reveals the lie to the theory that the killing will stop if America would just pull-out. The fact is, if America pulled out now, the Muslim extremists would slaughter every Muslim that had any connection whatsoever with America, in a vast purge. Maybe they should learn to get along with other people who don't share their strict religious views. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #45 May 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIt would be great if we could spread freedom with out killing a bunch of people. It would be great if the Muslims could practice their religion without killing a bunch of people. If we leave them be maybe they’ll stop. You should have noticed that lately in Iraq, the so-called "insurgents" are mostly killing their fellow Muslims. That kind of reveals the lie to the theory that the killing will stop if America would just pull-out. The fact is, if America pulled out now, the Muslim extremists would slaughter every Muslim that had any connection whatsoever with America, in a vast purge. Maybe they should learn to get along with other people who don't share their strict religious views. If we leave Iraq now we fuck up even more then we already have no questions there. I think we should make it our policy not to stick our nose in to other peoples business. You need to have a broader view then just one event i was not referring to Iraq. Most problems are a chain of events. You can't just look at say event D and not see A, B, and C that lead to that event. That’s what I mean by that post. We need to stop fucking people over, killing people, and sleeping in the same bed with bad people. As we have learned it will come back to bite us. We need to respect all human life more then money we still don’t.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #46 May 16, 2005 QuoteThat you actually seriously claim that Bush meant "holy war" says it all really, it's utterly ludicrous, so you use the fact that he's Christian and has rightly called terrorism evil and it's supporters evil to justify a your claim. *** Just so you know it was not just me who interpreted crusade as holy war in the context the president used it. There was quite an uproar but then again maybe everyone is wrong and you are right. The uproar was understandable because of Bush's poor choice of word and the historical connotations. That doesn't mean your contrived interpretation was the prevailing one, it certainly wasn't. Claiming this is me vs the rest of the world is a cheap tactic that conscripts a few too many people to your Bush's Holy War theory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #47 May 16, 2005 Quote We need to stop fucking people over, killing people, and sleeping in the same bed with bad people. As we have learned it will come back to bite us. We need to respect all human life more then money we still don’t. We don't get to see the outcome if we'd lived a naive existence 'playing nice' for decades, but I suspect it would not be the rosy one you assume. Just pointing to things you don't like and blaming one group for what you see as negative outcomes is hardly a reasonable way to evaluate history. Many ugly deals and damnable partnerships of expediency have been made because we don't control nor foresee the outcome of every regional power struggle. We make the best of a bad situation a lot of the time. Maybe we're in a half decent place today with many other far more negative outcomes averted after years of struggle. I wouldn't swap a single historical deal for your boy scout ideals if it meant (for example) risking living today with a Soviet controlled pan-Arabian Caliphate governed from Tehran. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites minobu 0 #48 May 16, 2005 QuoteThey need to quit flying Air Liners into office buildings first. QuoteWe need stop sleeping in the same bed as who we call Evil don't you think? umm ... please tell me you don't think flying those planes into the WTC was justified?! Only skydivers know why the birds sing! Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #49 May 16, 2005 QuoteI can agree that yes your right GWB is not a smart man. Really? He's the President.. What do you do for a living.. Not bad for a dumb ass eh? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #50 May 16, 2005 QuoteWe need stop sleeping in the same bed as who we call Evil don't you think? Why don't you run for President.. Snap your fingers and fix everything? You seem to have all the answers,, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 2 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
pajarito 0 #29 May 16, 2005 QuoteYou can argue all you want. GWBmore then a couple times has referenced God as his divine guidance. Do you, as a Muslim, not seek divine guidance from God? If so, why is GWB wrong for doing the same? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #30 May 16, 2005 You seek to redefine language on your own terms, it won't fly. Sure Bush is a man of professed faith and has called a few despotic regimes an axis of evil, at the same time he's drawn a distinction between the regime and the people. None of this bolsters your very serious attempt to claim he intended the word Crusade to mean holy war. He was talking explicitly about a struggle/war against terrorism in the large and a new kind of evil as he called it. He's right terrorism is evil and we should crusade against it and wage war upon those who espouse and support it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #31 May 16, 2005 Do you, as a Muslim, not seek divine guidance from God? If so, why is GWB wrong for doing the same? *** I am not the leader of the most powerful country in the world, that claims to have the separation of church and state.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #32 May 16, 2005 QuoteDo you, as a Muslim, not seek divine guidance from God? If so, why is GWB wrong for doing the same? *** I am not the leader of the most powerful country in the world, that claims to have the separation of church and state. So your excuse is you're irrelevant? Separation of church and state does not exclude people of faith from serving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #33 May 16, 2005 QuoteYou seek to redefine language on your own terms, it won't fly. Sure Bush is a man of professed faith and has called a few despotic regimes an axis of evil, at the same time he's drawn a distinction between the regime and the people. None of this bolsters your very serious attempt to claim he intended the word Crusade to mean holy war. He was talking explicitly about a struggle/war against terrorism in the large and a new kind of evil as he called it. He's right terrorism is evil and we should crusade against it and wage war upon those who espouse and support it. No one is redefining the language. It is quite simple. GW was talking about religious countries and waging war on them in his speeches. He was not talking about cancer was he??? So in that context and in most contexts a crusade would be translated as a holy war. You seem to look for the one point that would agree with you and not see the other 100 points that make your argument false.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #34 May 16, 2005 Separation of church and state does not exclude people of faith from serving. Quote No but it does exclude you from bringing your belief to your job. So your excuse is you're irrelevant? *** If you want to upset me or make me mad you are barking up the wrong tree. I only get upset when people I care about make comments. That does not include you. But if you do need me to explain the obvious I will explain calmly.My personal life and decisions are not a topic on this form, and will never be. I hope that is clear enough.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #35 May 16, 2005 Oops. Just another example of shoddy journalism. They are so quick to believe anything anti-American, and publish it without verification. But when it comes to retractions, they can't do that yet, because they have rigid standards to meet! If only they would put as much effort into their stories up front, as they do with retractions. Newsweek's Response Excerpt: "we regret that we got any part of our story wrong, and extend our sympathies to victims of the violence and to the U.S. soldiers caught in its midst." Of course the Islamic extremists will continue to believe the original story, and will disregard the now-revealed truth as just a lie being perpetrated to try and cover-up the desecration. It's time to immediately confiscate all the religious books and prayer rugs that we freely provided to all prisoners of war. If they don't have 'em, they can't claim that we abused 'em. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #36 May 16, 2005 QuoteIt would be great if we could spread freedom with out killing a bunch of people. It would be great if the Muslims could practice their religion without killing a bunch of people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #37 May 16, 2005 Quote You seem to look for the one point that would agree with you and not see the other 100 points that make your argument false. You don't have 100 points, just a single archaic interpretation of a commonly used word. A word that in my lifetime I've only seen to mean holy war in a very specific historical context. All other countless times in a contemporary context it has meant a struggle. That you actually seriously claim that Bush meant "holy war" says it all really, it's utterly ludicrous, so you use the fact that he's Christian and has rightly called terrorism evil and it's supporters evil to justify a your claim. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #38 May 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteIt would be great if we could spread freedom with out killing a bunch of people. It would be great if the Muslims could practice their religion without killing a bunch of people. If we leave them be maybe they’ll stop. If we keep fucking with peoples countries, religion and freedoms then what goes around will go around, and around, and around.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #39 May 16, 2005 QuoteIf we leave them be maybe they’ll stop. They need to quit flying Air Liners into office buildings first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #40 May 16, 2005 That you actually seriously claim that Bush meant "holy war" says it all really, it's utterly ludicrous, so you use the fact that he's Christian and has rightly called terrorism evil and it's supporters evil to justify a your claim. *** Just so you know it was not just me who interpreted crusade as holy war in the context the president used it. There was quite an uproar but then again maybe everyone is wrong and you are right.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #41 May 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf we leave them be maybe they’ll stop. They need to quit flying Air Liners into office buildings first. We need stop sleeping in the same bed as who we call Evil don't you think?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #42 May 16, 2005 of course he didn't mean a holy war! It was a stupid blunder because he was talking to representatives of Muslim countries at the time he made his speech asking their help vs. terrorism. He should have kept in mind that he was talking to Muslims, and not used the term "Crusade". Its not important whether it means this or that in an American English dictionary. Bush should have been SMART enough to realize the connotation among Muslims & Arabs! Of course he didn't do it deliberately, he was just a blundering idiot. You just would expect the leader of the most powerful nation on earth to have a little tact & sophistication when dealing with other nations. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #43 May 16, 2005 I can agree that yes your right GWB is not a smart man. I think his actions show what he meant.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #44 May 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteIt would be great if we could spread freedom with out killing a bunch of people. It would be great if the Muslims could practice their religion without killing a bunch of people. If we leave them be maybe they’ll stop. You should have noticed that lately in Iraq, the so-called "insurgents" are mostly killing their fellow Muslims. That kind of reveals the lie to the theory that the killing will stop if America would just pull-out. The fact is, if America pulled out now, the Muslim extremists would slaughter every Muslim that had any connection whatsoever with America, in a vast purge. Maybe they should learn to get along with other people who don't share their strict religious views. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #45 May 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIt would be great if we could spread freedom with out killing a bunch of people. It would be great if the Muslims could practice their religion without killing a bunch of people. If we leave them be maybe they’ll stop. You should have noticed that lately in Iraq, the so-called "insurgents" are mostly killing their fellow Muslims. That kind of reveals the lie to the theory that the killing will stop if America would just pull-out. The fact is, if America pulled out now, the Muslim extremists would slaughter every Muslim that had any connection whatsoever with America, in a vast purge. Maybe they should learn to get along with other people who don't share their strict religious views. If we leave Iraq now we fuck up even more then we already have no questions there. I think we should make it our policy not to stick our nose in to other peoples business. You need to have a broader view then just one event i was not referring to Iraq. Most problems are a chain of events. You can't just look at say event D and not see A, B, and C that lead to that event. That’s what I mean by that post. We need to stop fucking people over, killing people, and sleeping in the same bed with bad people. As we have learned it will come back to bite us. We need to respect all human life more then money we still don’t.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #46 May 16, 2005 QuoteThat you actually seriously claim that Bush meant "holy war" says it all really, it's utterly ludicrous, so you use the fact that he's Christian and has rightly called terrorism evil and it's supporters evil to justify a your claim. *** Just so you know it was not just me who interpreted crusade as holy war in the context the president used it. There was quite an uproar but then again maybe everyone is wrong and you are right. The uproar was understandable because of Bush's poor choice of word and the historical connotations. That doesn't mean your contrived interpretation was the prevailing one, it certainly wasn't. Claiming this is me vs the rest of the world is a cheap tactic that conscripts a few too many people to your Bush's Holy War theory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #47 May 16, 2005 Quote We need to stop fucking people over, killing people, and sleeping in the same bed with bad people. As we have learned it will come back to bite us. We need to respect all human life more then money we still don’t. We don't get to see the outcome if we'd lived a naive existence 'playing nice' for decades, but I suspect it would not be the rosy one you assume. Just pointing to things you don't like and blaming one group for what you see as negative outcomes is hardly a reasonable way to evaluate history. Many ugly deals and damnable partnerships of expediency have been made because we don't control nor foresee the outcome of every regional power struggle. We make the best of a bad situation a lot of the time. Maybe we're in a half decent place today with many other far more negative outcomes averted after years of struggle. I wouldn't swap a single historical deal for your boy scout ideals if it meant (for example) risking living today with a Soviet controlled pan-Arabian Caliphate governed from Tehran. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
minobu 0 #48 May 16, 2005 QuoteThey need to quit flying Air Liners into office buildings first. QuoteWe need stop sleeping in the same bed as who we call Evil don't you think? umm ... please tell me you don't think flying those planes into the WTC was justified?! Only skydivers know why the birds sing! Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #49 May 16, 2005 QuoteI can agree that yes your right GWB is not a smart man. Really? He's the President.. What do you do for a living.. Not bad for a dumb ass eh? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #50 May 16, 2005 QuoteWe need stop sleeping in the same bed as who we call Evil don't you think? Why don't you run for President.. Snap your fingers and fix everything? You seem to have all the answers,, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
