Is the Use of Ethnic Names for Mascots and Marketing Acceptable?

[DSE 5]

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I do get your point; it's OK to denigrate another culture if you're being a sport about it. i've heard ths silliness all my life. "Hey, I was only joking when I called him a 'prairie nigger'..." "He's such a nice guy, for a black man."

That's not my point, and you're a jackass for this misrepresentation. There, I did it directly instead of your little slight.

"Hey, I was only joking when I called him a 'prairie nigger'..." is from the film "Thunderheart." I'd much rather be called a jackass than most of the names directed at my culture or skin. My comment is/was directed at your position, not you personally, but if it makes you feel better to call names...enjoy yourself.

If you're a self-described "freak" about not liking ethnic jokes, I'd suggest you're wound too tight. There is a difference in being able to laugh at yourself and being labeled. I disagree that comedians making ethnic jokes (assuming they're joking about all cultures vs only one target) is the "less public" than putting comedic depictions of a culture on a shirt, hat, pennant, bumpersticker, billboard, lunchbox, foam finger, television logo, and so forth. I'd argue the word and image of "Redskins," for example, is seen more every hour during NFL season worldwide than heard in a month of jokes by Lisa Lamponelli, George Carlin, or Robin Williams.
If you can't laugh in a human context at who we are as people....what *do* you laugh at? It's when it becomes pointed and personal (ie;'jackass') that it becomes problematic, don't you agree?

So to further illustrate your original point...
Crazy Horse/Tasunka Witko was an honorable leader of the Lakota nation. White guy comes along and says "I have a new beer, I think I'll call it "Crazy Horse" beer in honor of the great leader. (Except alcohol is a negative context in all of Native America) But not to white America. So you feel that's acceptable, because it's honoring someone?

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No - not in the sports context. Nobody picks a name for their sportsteam that has a denegrating context. Or your list would be the sports team names.

dBattman's post says it fine "Mascots and team names, IMHO, are often picked for characteristics (real or figurative) that we would like to see 'transfered' or associated with the team. Raiders, Bears, Bengals, Pirates, Buffalo, Giants, Vikings, Mariners- all strong, dominant themes that fans like seeing transfered to their sports teams."

I think I understand you're saying it's OK because it's embodying the characteristics of Crazy Horse, who was an honorable guy. Not to mention that it suggests that Crazy Horse endorses the beer. And it does draw on the characteristics of a strong warrior, a proud nation, and a renowned heritage, so I guess it's OK to use the name, by the standard you set forth.

Am I understanding your view correctly?

[rehmwa 2]

So you only respond to the tail end of the post.

What about "the standard I set forth" that the sports teams and the NA tribes should be able to come an accommodation like some of the examples you put up?

Less fun?

I like your standard - "Hey, listen to this Indian joke.....Funny, Huh. BTW, on a completely unrelated line of conversationg, damn that Washington team for calling themselves the "Redskins" what are they thinking?"

It doesn't strike me as genuine, just for show.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DSE 5]

I believe I responded to the entire context of the post?

~You seem to feel it's acceptable to use the name of a culture or animal if it embodies the spirit or attributes of that culture ie; Bears, Vikings, etc.

I agree, until the name used is a name that is commonly viewed as a slur against a specific culture ie; "Redskins." If a specific culture takes umbrage with the use of the name no matter what it is, I feel the team (if nothing else, then out of community relations) should change their name.
If I've misunderstood your position, my apologies.

~You feel that ethnic jokes are inappropriate when used by comedians/commediennes in a particular context.
I disagree. I enjoy comedic outlets ranging from SouthPark, John Leguizamo, George Carlin to Lisa Lamponelli, all of whom use a wide mix of ethnic jokes in their shows. If they did an entire show dedicated to slamming one particular culture, then I'd probably feel differently. Humor about other cultures brings perspective. I know I have funny quirks related to my culture, and while in one context they're quite sacred, in another, they're quite funny. Humor doesn't have to be denigrating. For example, we have a lot of jokes about eating dogs. Dogs are sacred, but we make jokes about each other eating dogs.

"Two Cheyennes spotted a sign in a cafe window that said "hot-dogs". Thinking they were some other kind of dogs, they ordered two and went to a park to have lunch. The first guy looked inside his sack, and then threw it down in disgust, looks at his friend and says "What part did you get?"

I see no harm in that. I think one of the best ways to understand a person is to know what makes them laugh. Laughter is also sacred to Native people, each nation has a name for certain kinds of laughter, and all nations have ceremonies for a baby's first laugh. I don't consider "Redskins" to be a laughing matter. Nor do I consider Crazy Horse Beer to be a laughing matter.

~you called me a jackass
Whatever.

Which part of the post(s) did I not respond to?

[Conundrum 1]

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There are just way too many whiney ass bitches in this world. Politically correctness changes every day depending on which minority is bitching the most. I personally think the people that are bitching are just wanting a free ride.

ding ding ding!

[DaVinci 0]

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~You seem to feel it's acceptable to use the name of a culture or animal if it embodies the spirit or attributes of that culture ie; Bears, Vikings, etc.

I agree, until the name used is a name that is commonly viewed as a slur against a specific culture ie; "Redskins."

See I see "Redskins" as taking the spirit of ALL Native Americans, not just one tribe.

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If a specific culture takes umbrage with the use of the name no matter what it is, I feel the team (if nothing else, then out of community relations) should change their name.

OK but that raises two questions.

1. What if you find it offensive, but others of your same race do not? Lets say you find "Redskins"offensive, but Another NA does not? Who is right?

2. What is the threshold? One guy out of 1,000? Is that one guy ignored, or does the team drop the name even if ONE guy out of a million does not like it?

See the problem is that only the people who complain normally get any attention. The people who have no problem with a name normally do not say anything.

[steveorino 7]

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OK but that raises two questions.

1. What if you find it offensive, but others of your same race do not? Lets say you find "Redskins"offensive, but Another NA does not? Who is right?

2. What is the threshold? One guy out of 1,000? Is that one guy ignored, or does the team drop the name even if ONE guy out of a million does not like it?

See the problem is that only the people who complain normally get any attention. The people who have no problem with a name normally do not say anything.

Interesting point. The term "christian" was first a derogatory term by the Romans calling the followers of Christ (or as they preferred to be called, "The Way") "little christ" It was a name of derision. Somewhere along the path the "christians" took to the name.

Another in that same vein of thought is the term Xian. I typed it once and my brother, who is a pastor, said "who are the Xians?" To him it was a derogatory name used by those who were trying to take "christ" out of Christmas (Xmas) Actually, the Greek symbol we recognize as X is a symbol for Christ.


I respect Spotted Eagle very much and I look forward to reading his response to your question.

steveOrino

[rehmwa 2]

We're on the same page. Now that it's clarified. I just ignore it as little stuff and assign zero value to it, you are vested in it more.

In the same vein as your response - I didn't call you a name, I called the technique you used a name (I edited it to something else, before you posted your response)

I guess I don't see the point in so MANY people identifying one's self with an ethnicity instead as the individual they are. My favorite is "my people are the ________, we are known for our individuality".

To me, the stupid antics of a mascot doesn't denigrate the place the mascot it came from. It just shows an individual in a costume acting stupid. Jon in the Redskin costume is an idiot. I don't take his antics to mean anything about any tribe member. I don't see how anyone really can. It's nuts.

These are paradies of charactatures of stereotypes that are defines from mostly hollywood crap.

I have a lot of scandinavian genetics - how should I feel about the Swedish Chef from the muppets?

amused, annoyed, upset, enraged? Maybe I can sue Jim Henson and make a bundle......hmmmmm


Last one, I didn't talk to ethnic jokes by professional comedians, (though there is much better humor than that). I was talking about the little snide jokes of the "Average Joe" - hurtful, little insidious jokes that propogate in daily conversation. pro comedians? to me, what they say is just a way of making income, it doesn't affect me at all, nor does pro sports antics, etc. It's the daily and private face to face stuff that defines society, not the movies and sports and public stuff.

The hot dog jokes is a physical humor joke, not necessarily a Cherokee joke. You could insert any culture that eats dogs, or, just use two names. Someone 'chose' to use Cherokee. Or, "two CrW dawgs spotted a sign in a cafe window." It's just as funny.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

I would let market forces dictate this, as opposed to laws.

I would think that a team called the New York Kikes or the Utah Niggers would not get too large a following.

[steveorino 7]

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I would let market forces dictate this, as opposed to laws.

I would think that a team called the New York Kikes or the Utah Niggers would not get too large a following.

But in that same vein No one blinks at Washington Redskins. Living in OK, I'm aware it is a very offensive term, but alas my school where I work is called the Union Redskins much to the dismay of most NA in OK, and they are not exactly a small minority.

steveOrino

[Lindsey 0]

I would think that a team called the New York Kikes or the Utah Niggers would not get too large a following.

The Jumpin' Jigaboos is kinda catchy though.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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But in that same vein No one blinks at Washington Redskins. Living in OK, I'm aware it is a very offensive term, but alas my school where I work is called the Union Redskins much to the dismay of most NA in OK, and they are not exactly a small minority.

So, revenues could probably be better with a different name. Do you think it should be legislated though?

[steveorino 7]

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But in that same vein No one blinks at Washington Redskins. Living in OK, I'm aware it is a very offensive term, but alas my school where I work is called the Union Redskins much to the dismay of most NA in OK, and they are not exactly a small minority.

So, revenues could probably be better with a different name. Do you think it should be legislated though?

no. keep government out of it, or there will be no stop. Then EVERY name from Fighting Irish to Vikings will be taboo.

steveOrino

[kelpdiver 2]

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If you're a self-described "freak" about not liking ethnic jokes, I'd suggest you're wound too tight.

He's not the one whining about the Redskins.

Is there a single person in the entire country who really associates the name of the DC football team with a real living native American person or tribe?

I preferred the Washington Bullets to the Wizards. The latter might start complaining too! Ammo, otoh, can't form picket lines.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Another in that same vein of thought is the term Xian. I typed it once and my brother, who is a pastor, said "who are the Xians?" To him it was a derogatory name used by those who were trying to take "christ" out of Christmas (Xmas) Actually, the Greek symbol we recognize as X is a symbol for Christ.

I recognize it as a city in China known for the Terracotta Warriors. (ceramic life size figures). A bit long winded for a team name, not to mention they're as slow and as dumb as a rock.

[DSE 5]

As far as "Redskins," yes, it offends me. So does "squaw" which is a french adaptation of a slur related to a vagina.
As far as a number? IMO, if the Native American Congress says "Our people don't want this name" then it should be accepted and changed. Native people have spoken up loudly, and the Redskins is one of the very few that have continued a hard-core resistance. Economics can't force them to change.

Look, I'm all about ignoring most politically correct approaches. I'm about as diplomatic as a bull in a china shop. I'm not at all shy about speaking my piece and if it's culturally related, let the chips fall where they may. That said; when a culture as a whole steps forward and says "please stop using this word to describe us, and as a team name that embues millions of dollars in marketing," that's saying something. No one is asking for money from the Redskins, they're asking that the name be changed. If the black community came forward and said "The team name New England Spearchuckers offends me," even though the community is mostly the name should be changed regardless of the relative number of black to white in the overall population. It's about respect, not political correct behavior. If a group of blonde-haired Swedes from Minnesota said "Change the name of the Vikings, it offends us," I'd have to argue. There are no more Vikings in the world, and moreover, the Vikings aren't a race, they're a culture.

I can see how some might see it as being PC, but IMO, it's not.

[DaVinci 0]

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Actually, the joke is pertinent only to Lakota, Cheyenne, and Utes, as eating dog meat is part of a ceremony, and you post somewhat illustrates my point. But if you do change the nation to another one, or to CRW, it still has humor.

Or to Koreans, or.....you get the point.

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As far as "Redskins," yes, it offends me. So does "squaw" which is a french adaptation of a slur related to a vagina.

What about "Braves", "Indians", "Cowboys"?

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If a group of blonde-haired Swedes from Minnesota said "Change the name of the Vikings, it offends us," I'd have to argue. There are no more Vikings in the world, and moreover, the Vikings aren't a race, they're a culture.

So you are OK with some, but not all. See thats the problem you draw the line, "Anything other than what I don't like is OK".

You think that if one group dislikes something then it should be fixed...But if another group dislikes it...Well, no big deal?

It is all about perspective...You have yours, but it does not seem equal. Kinda like "nigger" is a bad word..UNLESS you are black.

The only group that is allowed to be made fun of is whites. If they complain, they must be racists.

[DSE 5]

I'v already explained my position on the Braves. The same would hold true for the Indians or Cowboys.

Are Vikings a race? Nope...I didn't draw that line, history did a long, long time ago. Was Viking ever a racial slur? Not to my knowledge, and a quick Google couldn't show me it ever has been either.

If the "one group" that dislikes something is the very group that is being slurred, yes, I think it's an issue. Most any intelligent person would.
I do think "nigger" is a bad word, even for blacks. But I'm not black, so while I have my opinion, it doesn't carry much weight with me.
However, if there *were* a team called the New Orleans Niggers or something similar, and the black community wanted it changed, I'd be on the bandwagon agreeing with them.

ALL groups, and I'll repeat it, ALL racial groups are capable, and often engage in, racist commentary. Which is why I initially posted so many different slurs.
But it doesn't make it right. What makes it harder to deal with from white people is that for most of history in the US, they've been not just the numerical majority, but the socio-economic majority as well. Fortunately it's starting to balance out. Maybe in the future, white people will understand what it's like to be the put-down minority.

[DaVinci 0]

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Are Vikings a race? Nope

Neither are "Redskins", or "Braves."

But it IS heritage. And its clear you only want others to respect the things YOU hold dear.

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ALL groups, and I'll repeat it, ALL racial groups are capable, and often engage in, racist commentary. Which is why I initially posted so many different slurs.
But it doesn't make it right. What makes it harder to deal with from white people is that for most of history in the US, they've been not just the numerical majority, but the socio-economic majority as well.

So it is OK as long as "whitey" does not do it?

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Maybe in the future, white people will understand what it's like to be the put-down minority.

So only through revenge will you have equality?

[DSE 5]

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Are Vikings a race? Nope

Neither are "Redskins", or "Braves."

But it IS heritage. And its clear you only want others to respect the things YOU hold dear.

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ALL groups, and I'll repeat it, ALL racial groups are capable, and often engage in, racist commentary. Which is why I initially posted so many different slurs.
But it doesn't make it right. What makes it harder to deal with from white people is that for most of history in the US, they've been not just the numerical majority, but the socio-economic majority as well.

So it is OK as long as "whitey" does not do it?

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Maybe in the future, white people will understand what it's like to be the put-down minority.

So only through revenge will you have equality?

You're trolling, right?
"Viking" isn't a slur or culturally derogatory term. "Redskin" is. But a redneck probably wouldn't be eddicated enuf to figger that out.
thankfully, as most folks in this thread have posted, they "git it."

[skydiver30960 0]

I dunno man...

Do I freak out every time I eat at the Cracker Barrel?

No.


Elvisio "if I was any whiter I'd be clear" Rodriguez

[DaVinci 0]

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You're trolling, right?
"Viking" isn't a slur or culturally derogatory term. "Redskin" is. But a redneck probably wouldn't be eddicated enuf to figger that out.
thankfully, as most folks in this thread have posted, they "git it."

I "git" you can't debate a topic with out making attacks on the posters...That's twice you have done it in this thread.

YOU are the one on the war path, and when you can't make your point, you "git" emotional and go looking to scalp someone.

[GQ_jumper 4]

Who needs a mascot when you got thousands of drunken holligans?

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Hey now, I was one of those hooligans!! When Denver won the super bowl the second time I was in high school and ran downtown to join the shennanigans great memories

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[DSE 5]

It's not a personal attack. It's ironic that my culture is the culture we're specifically talking about, and I 'm not taking it personally. It's a global issue.

Here's another way to express it; A monster is unaware he's a monster. A monster that is aware he's a monster is a sociopath.

The folks that argue that it's OK to use a racial slur are unaware of how it makes those being slurred, feel. Either consciously or sub consciously, it affects people.

Society felt the word "jigaboo" was acceptable until a small part of society said it's not OK. Society felt it was OK to use a character like the Frito Bandito until a small segment of the community spoke out. Society felt it was OK to have a restaurant chain called "Lil' Black Sambo's" that then became "Sambo's" but kept the lil' black kid as their mascot. Eventually, they too, went away because society said it wasn't acceptable.
But here you argue that "Redskin," which is defined as a racial slur by every dictionary and and most everyone else of intelligence, isn't a racial slur, and you equate "Viking" with "Redskin."
They aren't the same, never will be the same. One group of people exists, the other doesn't.
I've already agreed (differing from many Native people) that "Indians" and "Braves" is acceptable from my point of view. "Redskins" is not.
It's a shame some folks in society are too ignorant can't see the difference, regardless of their skin color.

[rehmwa 2]

[replyThe team name New England Spearchuckers offends me

[DaVinci 0]

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It's not a personal attack.

Ah, you implied I was a redneck since I don't agree with you.

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But a redneck probably wouldn't be eddicated enuf to figger that out.
thankfully, as most folks in this thread have posted, they "git it."

Look if you are going to take shots at people, man up and admit it.

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The folks that argue that it's OK to use a racial slur are unaware of how it makes those being slurred, feel. Either consciously or sub consciously, it affects people.

But YOU said "I enjoy good ethnic jokes, I'm not a freak about it. Lisa Lamponelli is one of my favorite comics and nothing is sacred with her. Joking from a comedic viewpoint and naming a team are two very different things. One is to be laughed at, and the other shouldn't be laughed at, IMO.....If you can't laugh in a human context at who we are as people....what *do* you laugh at? It's when it becomes pointed and personal (ie;'jackass') that it becomes problematic, don't you agree?"

So it seems you are only OK with people and events YOU approve of(normal really)...Anything else is forbidden. So if you find a joke funny then it is OK. But don't expect that everyone should agree with YOUR views only.

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But here you argue that "Redskin," which is defined as a racial slur by every dictionary and and most everyone else of intelligence, isn't a racial slur,

I never said it was not a racial slur. I asked a question about how many people have to find it offensive before it is considered banned for use.

And I take offense at how you explain away other terms that others could find offensive, but hold fast to your opinions and insult anyone that disagrees that only YOUR opinon should count.

A perfect example:

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I've already agreed (differing from many Native people) that "Indians" and "Braves" is acceptable from my point of view. "Redskins" is not.

Some hate "Braves", but you think it is OK, but Redskins is not OK. But you have already mentioned that others do not care about it.

You are free to hold on to your personal opinions...and voice them, ect. But you attack people when they do not agree (and then later claim you didn't) and don't pay any attention to anyone elses opinions.

Have fun with that, but you should not expect that everyone else should only listen and respect your opinions.