Do you consider the burning of the American Flag to be an attack on ALL AMERICANS?

[billvon 3,070]

>I'm not going to recruit 20 shitheads and fly airliners into office
>buildings in his country. Huge difference here Bill.

You have said you would do worse. "GLASS FUCKING PARKING LOT" was your term for it I believe. In other words, you'd kill millions, not just 3000.

There are a lot of ways to argue this point, but claiming that you would not do to arabs what they are doing to us is not one of them. You have expressed a desire to do just that.

[dorbie 0]

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yes it is am insult

your right ends when you enter my space

hooah

..

So no one has the right to burn a flag in your space - agreed. What if a person burns a flag in their own space or public space (with a permit and obedience to all safety statutes); do you have the right to be offended?

The act of burning the flag is intended to offend. What are you talking about right to be offended?

He's not conducting an intellectual exercise in constitutional law. When rights meets physics, physics wins, it's as simple as that.

To paraphrase an old saying, don't bring constitutional amendment to a fist fight.

[EBSB52 0]

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anyone

AnyONE is correct.. I won't declare a tampon war against their whole race for gods sake..

That's correct. Burn a flag in my presence and your "anyones" right to free speech ends at least temporarily. When I'm in cuffs and when "said named person wakes up" he can start blabbing again..

In 6 months when his jaw functions again..

If I flush a Quran down the toilet in front of a Muslim I would expect him to try and whip my ass.

Rhino

And when you go to prison for agg assault and sit there on a friday evening wondering who might be boning your wife, you'llbe saying to yourself: "That was definately worth it - I would do the same thing again."

Don't worry, I know you are just being figurative with all the tough guy stuff.

[EBSB52 0]

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yes it is am insult

your right ends when you enter my space

hooah

..

So no one has the right to burn a flag in your space - agreed. What if a person burns a flag in their own space or public space (with a permit and obedience to all safety statutes); do you have the right to be offended?

Dude, he's not conducting an intellectual exercise in constitutional law. When rights meets physics, physics wins, it's as simple as that.

To paraphrase an old saying, don't bring constitutional amendment to a fist fight.

Ageed - physics win on the front end, the law works on the backside....forever. The pen is mightier than the sword.

Also, the windbags that espouse the most - do the least in most cases.

[dorbie 0]

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Also, the windbags that espouse the most - do the least in most cases.

Is that a confession?

[Nightingale 0]

No, I don't consider flag burning to be an attack on all Americans, burning the Bible to be an attack on all Christians, burning the Torah an attack on all Jews, or burning "Of Mice and Men" to be an attack on Steinbeck (more like a protest against the high school English curriculum).

However, the only thing I'd consider taking a match to would be the last on that list. The remainder represent a people's way of life, and people with issues against those need to address them, not torch them. Flag burning is pretty childish, IMO.

While I wouldn't stop someone else from burning a flag in protest, I'd leave the country before I'd burn one myself. If the US ever disappoints me that much, better to be somewhere else than to burn a symbol that means a lot to someone else.

[rhino 0]

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And when you go to prison for agg assault and sit there on a friday evening wondering who might be boning your wife, you'llbe saying to yourself: "That was definately worth it - I would do the same thing again."

Don't worry, I know you are just being figurative with all the tough guy stuff.

lol on the wife stuff.

It isn't a matter of being a tough guy. I just couldn't put up with it. Just like I cannot let a man strike a woman in front of me. It's my belief system and I am willing to do jail time to enforce it. I think most men would.

[rhino 0]

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While I wouldn't stop someone else from burning a flag in protest, I'd leave the country before I'd burn one myself. If the US ever disappoints me that much, better to be somewhere else than to burn a symbol that means a lot to someone else.

Very well said..

[littlestranger 0]

no it's just fucking obnoxious.

[steve1 5]

And that's why "they" do it - it pisses off guys like you. Nothing wrong with guys like you, just that you are sensitive to it and they know it - so they do it.

It is wholly just a silly symbol. With that I mean the flag as well as falg burning. The flag represents 50 states and the original 13 colonies. To burn it means nothing. To bear it means nothing. I would rather spend my time trying to improve the elements that make it what it is than to try to save fabric.

As for flag burning, isn't it covered by the 1st via expression? I would never own or burn a flag, but I support the right to do either or both.

[EBSB52 0]

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Also, the windbags that espouse the most - do the least in most cases.

Is that a confession?

Espouse the most idle threats, genius.

[Zenister 0]

nope... as long as its not MY flag i dont give a rats ass... in fact your ability to burn one if you wish is an indication of the strength of our culture in comparison to others...anyone who would assault you over it simply lacks faith in our fundamental rights as americans

i wont cheer, but i wont stop you if it's your flag...

of course i WILL laugh if this happens...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[EBSB52 0]

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And when you go to prison for agg assault and sit there on a friday evening wondering who might be boning your wife, you'llbe saying to yourself: "That was definately worth it - I would do the same thing again."

Don't worry, I know you are just being figurative with all the tough guy stuff.

lol on the wife stuff.

It isn't a matter of being a tough guy. I just couldn't put up with it. Just like I cannot let a man strike a woman in front of me. It's my belief system and I am willing to do jail time to enforce it. I think most men would.

I watched a comedian say, "Right now there is some guy in Iowa having sex with another man and I can't take it" as he frantically grabbed his head. When I read you saying you couldn't put up with it; why? It's a piece of cloth that symbolizes a chunk of land, burning it doesn't change whatever meaning the flag has to you.

Just like I cannot let a man strike a woman in front of me.

Of course, and I wpuld interveine as would you I'm sure, but that's differnt.

It's my belief system and I am willing to do jail time to enforce it.

There are plenty of prosecutors willing to help you do jail time because some person burned fabric in your presence.

I think most men would.


So only men defend the flag and if a person fails to go to jail beating someone up that just burned a flag they aren't a man? Dog help us all.

[EBSB52 0]

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And that's why "they" do it - it pisses off guys like you. Nothing wrong with guys like you, just that you are sensitive to it and they know it - so they do it.

It is wholly just a silly symbol. With that I mean the flag as well as falg burning. The flag represents 50 states and the original 13 colonies. To burn it means nothing. To bear it means nothing. I would rather spend my time trying to improve the elements that make it what it is than to try to save fabric.

As for flag burning, isn't it covered by the 1st via expression? I would never own or burn a flag, but I support the right to do either or both.

I'm sorry, but the American flag is not just a silly symbol to most Americans. Sure, it does piss me off when I see idiots burning it. I'm just wondering what in life would tick you off if burning our flag doesn't. How can you say that to bear our flag means nothing? Maybe I was raised differently than you, but frankly I just don't understand your perspective on this....Steve1

[EBSB52 0]

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nope... as long as its not MY flag i dont give a rats ass... in fact your ability to burn one if you wish is an indication of the strength of our culture in comparison to others...anyone who would assault you over it simply lacks faith in our fundamental rights as americans

i wont cheer, but i wont stop you if it's your flag...

of course i WILL laugh if this happens...

Well put. See, what many folks don't understand is the catch 22 they fabricate when they disavow flag burning. The 1st Amendment covers the essence of free expression, burning a flag is a form of expression, so to outlaw it would be to suppress that expression, hence a very abridged 1st.

[jenfly00 0]

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So you would try to hurt them.

I wouldn't try.. I would just do it..

Instead I avoid those situations to begin with. Preventive maintenance.

If we are at the wffc, and some asshat decides to lite up a flag in front of me he's going down.

[wmw999 2,534]

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An upside-down flag symbolizes a nation in peril, i.e. our liberties in jeopardy

That's the whole point of the group that had that as their emblem, and he fully understood that (we did talk about his choice of apparel).

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[crozby 0]

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But when done as a "symbolic gesture" it's about as effective and childish as a tantrum. But taking offense at it is a waste of energy and just encourages the child.

I disagree. Burning things implies violence:

Burning the American flag is symbolic of violence towards America.

British idiots burned effigies of Bush during his last visit to the UK - that symbolised their hatred for the man and what they'd like seen done to him.

The KKK wore silly hats and burned crosses - that was obviously designed to be intimidating to blacks.

[Lindsey 0]

The KKK wore silly hats and burned crosses - that was obviously designed to be intimidating to blacks.

Absolutely. It would be less intimidating today, though, because the law no longer turns a blind eye. In years past, it was much more than a gesture when a hooded man burned a cross in a black person's front yard. That person would probably not be protected from what was about to happen to him.

When someone burns a flag today, they might wish harm on our country, but the threat is not as immediately real.

linz

[rhino 0]

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why? It's a piece of cloth

To some people... Not to me or any other veteran that has given blood, sweat and tears for it. It's a bit more than a piece of cloth to us.

[namgrunt 0]

the boy scouts can and do burn flags. used old dirty flags
we who have fought,blead, died ,wounded have the right to say NO NOT IN MY SPACE

boy scouts OK
protesters NO
its ALL in the way and why its done..

..

59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT
LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI)
www.dzmemories.com

[jdhill 0]

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Not to me or any other veteran that has given blood, sweat and tears for it.

You are casting a pretty wide net there... I think most vets do see it as more than a piece of cloth, as would most Americans, but I think there are a fair number of vets who may not agree with the act, but have given blood sweat and tears, and will defend to the death the right to do it.

It is called symbolic speech, while distasteful, unless the burning flag is used in some way to incite immediate violence, or cause damage (lighting a building on fire with it for example), and so long as the flag is not someone else's property, it is protected by the 1st.

You might come back with, "it might be their right to burn it, but its my right to kick their ass"... that may be true, but assault on your sensitivities and physical assault have different consequences.

The point is, that by reacting with violence to the destruction of a symbol, your behavior would be no better than those that rioted over the koran story.

If feel you must act, then try to put the burning flag out, save the flag... or perhaps just tell the idiot "your welcome" That will likely leave them confused, since they won't understand why.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[steve1 5]

How can you say that to bear our flag means nothing?

I'm wrong then, it contemporarily represents classism, Fascism, Imperialism and a few other ideologies. It didn't always represent that, but it has represented those things for a while now.

.

[rehmwa 2]

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I disagree. Burning things implies violence:
Burning the American flag is symbolic of violence towards America.
British idiots burned effigies of Bush during his last visit to the UK - that symbolised their hatred for the man and what they'd like seen done to him.
The KKK wore silly hats and burned crosses - that was obviously designed to be intimidating to blacks.

Of course you have your opinion and that's fine. My point can summarized pretty clearly by pulling the key words from your text: implies, symbolic, idiots, effigies, "they'd like seen done", silly, intimidating.

I don't have much concern over "symbols" but others do. So that's where we'll disagree. That's the dividing line.

Still, I don't like to see a flag burn at a protest because of the intent of the people doing the act. But I don't respond to 'intent' or 'feelings', only actions. If someone threatens you, laugh at them. If someone threatens the US, then laugh at them. Actions matter, not gestures or words. A smart attack wouldn't start with a gesture or a warning, it would start with an physical attack.

Let the babies cry.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[steve1 5]

This story might apply to this discussion. I posted it once before in the History and Trivia place, but a lot of people may not have seen it. It's a true story. I hope I am remembering it as it was told to me.

Mack Bledsoe is the father of Drew Bledsoe (the famous quarterback). Anyhow this story has been told many times by Mack. He is a retired teacher who now works as an inspirational speaker.

Mack worked at a High School in Washington state. One day a janitor in his school died. This janitor was respected by all who were in that school, and it was decided to have the funeral proceedings in the school gym.

It was a surprise, by most, to find that the janitor was also a war hero. He never talked about this part of his life. So, at his funeral his casket was draped with an American flag, and there was an honor guard, and all the ceremony that goes along with a military type funeral.

Several times the proceedings were interrupted by kids horsing around and showing disrespect for this man, the flag, and all the ceremony that went with the funeral. At first Mack was very irate with these kids. Then he got to thinking...The reason the kids might show disrespect is because they have not been taught why it is important to have respect for our flag. So, he took it upon himself to make this part of the classes he taught at school.

So this is the story Mack told his students.

Mack's Dad and his best friend enlisted, at a young age, in the Army Air Corps shortly after World War II started. They were natural pilots, and graduated at the top of their class. Later they were assigned to the same squadron in England and started flying missions together over Germany.

One day over Germany they were attacked by multiple German fighters. A terrible dog fight insued. Mack's Dad had a fighter on his tail, but his best friend came in to help him out.

As things turned out, his friend's plane was hit bad, and he had to bail out. He cleared the plane okay, but his parachute streamered out above him. The streamer pulled him upright, but wouldn't clear itself. This doomed pilot soon realized that he was falling to his death and there was nothing he could do to save himself.

Mack's Dad put his plane into a dive and spiraled down as he best friend was falling toward the earth. At one time he came very close to his friend, and through the tears could see his friends face. He also noticed that he was pointing at something. He looked again and could see clearly that his friend was pointing at the American flag that was on the shoulder of his flight suit. And then his friend impacted the earth and died.

For many people the American flag is a hell of a lot more than just a silly symbol....Steve1