Being pushed into experience...

[MakeItHappen 15]

You always have a problem when I relate MY experiences and try to discount my perceptions and life experiences.

I've been jumping for more than 24 years and have experienced these things first hand and have also seen them done to other women jumpers with the sexual intent behind them, then and now. I know and have seen first hand that there are sexual/gender related problems, even today, that make it harder for women to succeed in skydiving. If you want to look the other way and say these problems do not exist or discount the effect upon women, so be it. These are real problems that some women must face.

A recent (last summer) event was when I was helping Jim Wallace with his water training. A guy sitting up on the BombShelter patio, that overlooks the pool, said he'd pay $10 to anyone that would throw me into the pool. This guy, someone I've known for close to 20 years is a TIT-man. He wanted to see me with a wet T-shirt. Someone took him up on the offer and did somehow manage to push me into the pool - against my struggling and protestations. This is the harassment that an USPA elected official, multiple World Record holder, multiple National Champion, accomplished jumper with 6000 jumps and 'Don't mess with Jan' has to face. Do you think it's easier for a new woman jumper that does not know about the potential harassments to deal with? Sometimes these harassments compromise safety and learning.

The TIT-man always asks me to 'show my tits' when I ask him to fill out a ballot. I, of course, do not do that and he does vote for me. I still do not like the harassment and the innuendo. I can hear you say 'It's all fun and games. You are over the top.' It's not fun and games. It is harassment.

I also continually see the 'silent woman' syndrome. A women suggests something that is immediately snuffed-out. A few minutes later a man suggests the identical thing. The suggestion is then adopted.

I continually see keys diverted from the women jumpers and given to men jumpers when the dive flow suggests that the women jumpers (or any jumper in those slots) should have the key.

You and AndyMan may have thought I said all jumps that have such-n-such attributes meant gender bias. What I said was that there are tell-tale signs of gender bias.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Ron 10]

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You always have a problem when I relate MY experiences and try to discount my perceptions and life experiences

No I don't think they do that...Well ok some do, but not all.

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I know and have seen first hand that there are sexual/gender related problems, even today, that make it harder for women to succeed in skydiving.

I have seen more of women getting more attention than men than women being held back.

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A recent (last summer) event was when I was helping Jim Wallace with his water training. A guy sitting up on the BombShelter patio, that overlooks the pool, said he'd pay $10 to anyone that would throw me into the pool.

OK so the guy is an asshole. I know females that are assholes and I know guys that would throw a guy in the pool since they think it would be funny.

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Do you think it's easier for a new woman jumper that does not know about the potential harassments to deal with? Sometimes these harassments compromise safety and learning.

And many times the fact they are women they get more offers of help and more help than a guy would get.

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I also continually see the 'silent woman' syndrome. A women suggests something that is immediately snuffed-out. A few minutes later a man suggests the identical thing. The suggestion is then adopted.

And I have seen the same thing with guys.. Hell I was coaching an 8way group for Turkey meet and I designed the dive based on what was best....A jumper came to me and told me that jumper "A" should not be in the center. I told the jumper that this was the best way todesign the dive. They found another person to help them plan the dive....Different coach, same dive plan, the jumper found another coach....Same dive plan...Finally she got a member of Majic to plan the dive...Guess what? Same dive plan. Oh, it was an all girl team. But still someone was not happy about the way the dive went till a member of Majic said to do it that way.

I think that plenty of people see sexism and racism cause thats what they are looking to find. NOT saying it is not out there, but not everyone is cruising for a piece of ass from the hot new skychick.

To deny that sexism happens at the DZ would be foolish, to claim that it is evil is also silly.

It happens in EVERYTHING. I don't tend to buy random guys drinks.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Icon134 0]

I'd have to agree with rehmwa on some of these points... I've been in situations where (regardless of gender) low time jumpers are put into a situation that will prevent them from getting into the formation... and safely complete the skydive.

I'm not saying that gender bias doesn't occur (because I'm sure it does...)

I did a jump on sunday, a 7-way with an older crowd, and no one brought up break off... I like to deploy at by 3000-3500 ft and suggested a break off of 5000 ft... one of the oldtimers said "skydive till your scared..." but then promptly followed it up with "5k ft break off it is..."

I would probably have accepted 4500ft but if someone had pushed it any lower I wouldn't have had a problem sitting out of the jump.

Scott

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[WrongWay 0]

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Come on, you can't say you've never seen it happen before.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen... I was merely pointing out that it isn't so clear cut... I have female friends that I really like at the DZ but that doesn't mean that I only want to jump with them because I'm trying to score with them... ...

I agree, it's not always that clear cut, and I'm not saying that everybody is trying to get in her pants. I'm simply saying that many guys will want to impress her for the reason of dating or attraction by offering coaching and kiss passes.

I know you don't jump on every girl who shows up at your dz. I don't either. I really like all the girls at my dz, and I love jumping with all of them, but I don't hit on any of them. I also know several guys who don't. I'm not saying this is ALWAYS the case, but a huge amount of the cases are that very situation, and that's just something that most girls accept in our sport. Hell, it's even advantageous in some aspects.

Forgive my bluntness, but IMHO, it's better to be straight forward about it and give a worst case scenario than it is to be laxed and naive about the situation.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[huka551 0]

I saw a girl, dumb as a box of rox, doing tandem after tandem. Come to find out the girl failed AFF level 1, 3 times and level 2, 3 times. Under canopy made no attempts to fly her chute, or flare when she landed (creamed into the ground). On one of her jumps she held the pilot chute!!! The AFFI had to shake it from her hand, not to mention that each jump she went out swimming. But these guys were falling all over themselves to get this chick back in the air. The dzo restricted her to tandems until she proved to be safer in the air. If that had been a guy you would have hear "dude, just give it up...take up bowling"!

Muff Brother 3723

[billvon 2,991]

>If that had been a guy you would have hear "dude, just give it up...take up bowling"!

We had a guy like that at our DZ. Tried everything with him. After about 20 AFF's we told him he had to do something different; maybe tunnel time would work. (This was when the cruddy Vegas tunnel was all that was available.) He went to Vegas, got about an hour of tunnel time, came back, and passed after another 5-6 AFF's. He's still jumping as far as I know.

[Icon134 0]

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"dude, just give it up...take up bowling"!

I know of a couple of girls that have gotten the bowling speach... one of them landed on the runway just about got hit by a plane.

Scott

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[huka551 0]

This chick was a train wreck waiting to happen, but she was a cute tiny asian girl, who must have had lots of $$$ because she got video on all her jumps, AFF and the 15 tandems she did too! Not to mention she bought a lot of beer!

Muff Brother 3723

[HeatherB 0]

It sucks that you've been put in those kinds of situations. As in every sport, there are going to be some asshole guys around who think women are just there to be stared at and demeaned.

I have no doubt that other women have experienced the kinds of things you've mentioned. I've experienced the "stares" but I don't feel like I've been held back because of my gender. More like the opposite. (and if I flaunted my female assets more, I'd probably get more attention, but that's just not my thing).

Every DZ I've been to has seemed friendly...but perhaps I've gotten special treatment at some places b/c I'm female.

Just this past weekend at another FL DZ, a couple of guys were waving as my friend (a male) and I walked by. We both waved back but then the guy said to us, with a wink, "I was waving at HER, not you." Not a big deal, but it's an example of the extra attention women get.

It happens all the time. You ("You" in general) just have to decide how to deal with it. Do you want to get by on your merits and skills, or do you want to let your looks carry you along? Do you want to approach people who say inappropriate things or do you want to let it slide?

(I joke around with my friends...they can get away with a lot more than strangers!)

I've never heard anyone say "She can't be on X jump, she's just a girl" but I'm sure it happens. It seems like more often than not, the token girl will get invited on the load, over a more-experienced guy. That's just from what I've seen. I don't have 20+ years in the sport!

Hopefully we're making progress as more and more women join the sport and the "assholes" who do make inappropriate comments will be outed more frequently though.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

When I started this thread, it was simple, just wanted to know how and when I can start accepting these offers. I wanted to know more about safety and didnt expect all the implications on my looks or why people want to jump with me. Ive been to 3 DZs and never have I felt uncomfortable with being hit on. Never has anyone offered something in exchange for something, Never have I been disrespected by a male, Never has a man even asked me out, NEVER NEVER NEVER if anything its the woman who ignore me and give me dirty looks like Im walking around with the plaque.

I have always been treated as a person, until this thread started. Which is fine, I hope it is helpful to people. Its been helpful to me. Maybe not in the way I had intended.

I am in this sport to be in the sky, its as simple as that. I will take everything with a grain of salt. Many of you have been great and for that I thank you. I appreciate those who stayed on target and didnt talk about my looks as if I were a store display model...

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[tbrown 26]

Many of you have been great and for that I thank you. I appreciate those who stayed on target and didnt talk about my looks as if I were a store display model...

[peregrinerose 0]

First, my opinion doesn't mean shit since I have 47 jumps. Take it with a grain of salt. Heck, take it with the whole salt shaker!

Like you, I'm always getting offers to jump with people (and I'm about as attractive as your average warthog, if there are any Chambersburgers here, they can confirm), so I doubt that gender has anything to do with it. I'm a new licensee that wants to learn as much as possible from as many people as possible, and I learn more jumping with other people than solo to avoid getting into bad habits.

A vast majority I have accepted since I have an insane amount to learn. I have done 2 ways with some lower to moderate jump number people. I did an 8 way speed star on a sunset load that was the most fun I've had in the sky yet! Most of the jumpers on that load were either coaches are were very experienced jumpers. With any other group, I would have said no. A coach that has jumped with me several times and is very safety minded felt that I could do it, and I trust his opinion. If anyone else told me the same thing, I would not have been quite as sure about that.

I've turned down a couple 3 and 4 ways because I knew I wasn't ready for the things they wanted to do.

The way I see it, there is always another day to say 'yes' on an offer that I may not be ready for at that moment. Oh, and I always turn down politely, like 'I'm already jumping with my husband on this load, thanks, but definitely another time.' I'm just delighted to have people willing to jump with a newbie like me.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[rehmwa 2]

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You always have a problem when I relate MY experiences and try to discount my perceptions and life experiences.

I don't recall ever before responding to you specifically. I don't discount your personal experiences in this specific thread, just you extending that to all DZs and all people.

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...If you want to look the other way and say these problems do not exist or discount the effect upon women, so be it. These are real problems that some women must face.

NUTS - There are real problems with women getting a hard time from creeps. Your previous examples are just poor indicators and apply generally to new jumpers, not just new female jumpers. It's best for women in general to evaluate behavior towards them in a clear and rational way and then respond accordingly. But I don't recommend they get paranoid about it. Rather, they need to identify the real creeps out there, not just the over zealous organizers who are trying to hard to accommodate low experience jumpers in dives out of their league. Or even the snotty LO who only trusts his best buddies to take keys or get the glory slots.

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... TIT-man. He wanted to see me with a wet T-shirt. Someone took him up on the offer and did somehow manage to push me into the pool - against my struggling and protestations. This is the harassment

Darn straight it is - it is also assault. It was uncalled for and you should have brought serious charges either within the skydiving community or with the local LAW officials. YOU WOULD NEVER, EVER HEAR ME SAY THAT YOUR RESPONSE IS 'OVER THE TOP - IT'S ALL FUN AND GAMES'. I absolutely resent that assumption. You are dead wrong in that 'perception' but it appears you see what you want to see. If you really think this, go ask Mary SA what she thinks about your "perception"

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I also continually see the 'silent woman' syndrome...

I continually see keys diverted from the women jumpers and given to men jumpers ...

I think you have a chip on your shoulder for those items. I see that all time happening to new jumpers, non-popular individuals, etc. Not just women.

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You and AndyMan may have thought I said all jumps that have such-n-such attributes meant gender bias. What I said was that there are tell-tale signs of gender bias.

I sure did think that. And you put it out there that way for examples that happen all the time to any new jumper of both genders and then warned the poster to be careful of ALL the big bad men.

I'm only responding here because of the personal attack imbedded in your post about 'fun and games' attitude towards physical assault.

This might be better if the topic is moving away from new-jumper bias to sexism that it splits off to SC.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants