quade 4 #26 June 9, 2005 Quote Who wants to repeat the failures of others? (cough, bush, cough, viet nam) Those that do not study the past . . .quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #27 June 9, 2005 QuoteQuote Who wants to repeat the failures of others? (cough, bush, cough, viet nam) Those that do not study the past . . . Didn't know the subject of this thread had changed. We -were- talking about retirement funds.... ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #28 June 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote Who wants to repeat the failures of others? (cough, bush, cough, viet nam) Those that do not study the past . . . Didn't know the subject of this thread had changed. We -were- talking about retirement funds.... ltdiver We were also waiting to hear about which Countries Socialism had worked so well in. I guess diversion and hatred for Bush won out again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,058 #29 June 9, 2005 >That's called working smart. Smile Who wants to repeat the failures of others? Oh, I agree. But some people have a rather strong reaction when you suggest that any part of the US is socialistic or communistic. Heck, if you suggested that 40 years ago you'd probably have been arrested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #30 June 9, 2005 Ah, there is the require Bush slam. I like the fact that the Dems have fucked up SS (if the first post in this thread is correct) but blame it on the Republicans."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #31 June 9, 2005 QuoteWe were also waiting to hear about which Countries Socialism had worked so well in. When I visited Finland, their system impressed me. I talked with people there who were very happy with their life. Also, I admire the medical research of Sweden. Some of the best concepts have come out of there. Then there is Norway. I'd have to talk to the people from that country, but it seems everyone who goes to BASE jump there has a wonderful time. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #32 June 9, 2005 Quote Ah, there is the require Bush slam. Please Ron, with the title of this thread it almost -requires- us to question the judgement of the person that wants to change one of the major factors of life in the U.S. If a person, such as my self and right now a majority of the US, questions his judgement on Iraq, then why should we think he'll have any better judgement when it comes to Social Security?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #33 June 9, 2005 QuotePlease Ron, with the title of this thread it almost -requires- us to question the judgement of the person that wants to change one of the major factors of life in the U.S. Well one would think they might want to check the party that claims to support SS but has done the most damage to it....(Hint, thats not Bush). QuoteIf a person, such as my self and right now a majority of the US, questions his judgement on Iraq, then why should we think he'll have any better judgement when it comes to Social Security? Ah the required "drag Iraq into it" defense. Iraq has nothing to do with the fact the dems have destroyed SS and refuse to admit to a problem, or offer a solution. Yyour post that I replied to was nothing but dragging an unrelated topic into a different thread. Called a red herring."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #34 June 9, 2005 Quote Please Ron, with the title of this thread it almost -requires- us to question the judgement of the person that wants to change one of the major factors of life in the U.S. A major factor of life? Maybe that is the problem. If people would quit buying Hummers, plasma screen TVs and living waaay beyond their means and instead putting some of that money away for later, SS would be a non-issue. I sure as hell am not counting on SS - all it does right now is suck off some of my paycheck, NEVER to be seen again. Its just more of the me, me, me, right now dammit mentality.Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #35 June 9, 2005 QuoteQuote Please Ron, with the title of this thread it almost -requires- us to question the judgement of the person that wants to change one of the major factors of life in the U.S. A major factor of life? Maybe that is the problem. If people would quit buying Hummers, plasma screen TVs and living waaay beyond their means and instead putting some of that money away for later, SS would be a non-issue. I sure as hell am not counting on SS - all it does right now is suck off some of my paycheck, NEVER to be seen again. Its just more of the me, me, me, right now dammit mentality. Agreed. Absolutely agreed. However, Social Security was NEVER meant to support the kind of people you're talking about. Face it, if you drive around in a HUMMER, you probably don't have a need for SS.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #36 June 9, 2005 Quoteit almost -requires- us to question the judgement of the person that wants to change one of the major factors of life in the U.S. Hmmm. Seems to me that the founding fathers changed some stuff. Lincoln got some changes made, too. I seem to recall that FDR and Woodrow Wilson mad esome fundamental US policy changes, domestic and foreign. In fact, didn't Social Security change change one of the major factors of American life? Didn't LBJ sign some laws eliminating Jim Crow? It seems to me that a large movement of people is seeking to change the American and worldwide way of life because of some correlation between industry and global warming. I guess we should all questions Lincoln's wisdom, shouldn't we? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #37 June 9, 2005 QuoteHowever, Social Security was NEVER meant to support the kind of people you're talking about. Face it, if you drive around in a HUMMER, you probably don't have a need for SS. I would argue this point - I can drive you to neighborhoods in NC, Texas and Arizona that are below the poverty line, where the houses have roofs that leak, trash in the yard and there will be a brand new mercedes, BMW or what have you sitting in the yard. I know people living in apartments (throwing rent money down the tubs IMO), making minimum wage that have stereo/home theaters to rival those in the real theaters. These are the people I'm refering to - not the ones making 6 figures.Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #38 June 9, 2005 QuoteI can drive you to neighborhoods in NC, Texas and Arizona that are below the poverty line, where the houses have roofs that leak, trash in the yard and there will be a brand new mercedes, BMW or what have you sitting in the yard. I know people living in apartments (throwing rent money down the tubs IMO), making minimum wage that have stereo/home theaters to rival those in the real theaters. These are the people I'm refering to - not the ones making 6 figures. My problem is it is these folks bitching about SS. If you drive a 35,000-45,000 car you should be saving for your life, not expecting Uncle Sam to support you. Its one of the problems in this society, people would rather have a nice car than a future."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #39 June 10, 2005 No...It's horse shit, check it out http://www.snopes.com/cgi-bin/news/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000003Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #40 June 10, 2005 Do your own research or you look stupid!Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #41 June 10, 2005 Maybe we need to take a harder look at this. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #42 June 10, 2005 Not all of it. QuoteQ: Which party increased the tax on Social Security? A: The Democratic Party with Al Gore casting the deciding vote. TRUE QuoteQ. Which party decided to give money to immigrants? A: That's right, immigrants moved into this country at 65 and got SSI Social Security. The Democratic Party gave that to them although they never paid a dime into it. FALSE But then it says: "It was actually Bill Clinton that signed legislation barring immigrants from receiving SSI as part of The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996. This changed the following year with the signing of the Balanced Budget Act of 1997. " didn't Clinton sign the balanced budget act? If it got rid of that....then in essence wound this not be true? I really don't know. QuoteThe Balanced Budget Act of 1997 This bill passed the House on 7/30/97 by a vote of 346 to 85, and passed the Senate the next day on a vote of 85 to 15. This law restored SSI eligibility to certain cohorts of non- citizens whose eligibility otherwise would be terminated under the "welfare reform" of 1996. It also extended for up to one year the period for redetermining the eligibility of certain aliens who may ultimately not be eligible for continued benefits." Well, I learned something."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 379 #43 June 10, 2005 I have been working in the USA and paying social security taxes since 1990. Is it your arguement that I should not be able to collect benefits although I have been legally forced to pay into the system?_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #44 June 10, 2005 QuoteI have been working in the USA and paying social security taxes since 1990. Is it your arguement that I should not be able to collect benefits although I have been legally forced to pay into the system? Yeah, if you become a citizen then you can collect. If I go to another country do you thin I will get free healthcare and such?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,099 #45 June 10, 2005 QuoteQuoteI have been working in the USA and paying social security taxes since 1990. Is it your arguement that I should not be able to collect benefits although I have been legally forced to pay into the system? Yeah, if you become a citizen then you can collect. If I go to another country do you thin I will get free healthcare and such? He said he's paying into the system, in which case he's not asking for anything "free".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #46 June 10, 2005 QuoteHe said he's paying into the system, in which case he's not asking for anything "free". And when I go to another country, I pay taxes while I am there...That does not allow mw to particpate in that countries programs either."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,099 #47 June 11, 2005 QuoteQuoteHe said he's paying into the system, in which case he's not asking for anything "free". And when I go to another country, I pay taxes while I am there...That does not allow mw to particpate in that countries programs either. I expect he pays all the regular taxes too, but SS is supposed to be a social contract. Why do you think HE should pay for YOUR retirement but not his own? Are you becoming a socialist?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #48 June 11, 2005 QuoteI have been working in the USA and paying social security taxes since 1990. Is it your arguement that I should not be able to collect benefits although I have been legally forced to pay into the system? Question. If you're working legally, then yes you should be able to collect what you've invested (after the retirement age like the rest of us have to wait for). If you're not working legally, then how did you get a social security number to ID you for the withdraw of the funds? A visitor to this country -can- get a social security card, but it has a letter in addition to the numbers on the card and it is expressly for identification so you can, say, open a bank account. It is -not- for legal employment. And if a person -does- work with that card (or another person's number), legally they have to be denied all benefits. A person, in this country, must either be a legal citizen or have a work visa to be able to work here. If someone with either of those documents, works....they hell yeah they can collect what they put in. However, if they do not fall in this category....hell -no-. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 379 #49 June 11, 2005 I have always been very careful to have legal status to work in this country. Universities also tend to be very anal about this as they can lose their eligibility to receive federal research grants if they employ "undocumented" people. I was at the University of Arizona when Clinton signed the "The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996. From the Snopes article: "This "welfare reform" legislation, signed by the President on 8/22/96, ...also terminated SSI eligibility for most non-citizens. Previously, lawfully admitted aliens could receive SSI if they met the other factors of entitlement. As of the date of enactment, no new non-citizens could be added to the benefit rolls and all existing non-citizen beneficiaries would eventually be removed from the rolls." It was clear under that law that I had to pay SSI tax but would not be able to collect anything when I eventually retired. Some of that was reversed by the provisions contained in the Balanced Budget act of 1997, so if you are legally employed and you pay into the SSI system you are entitled to eventually collect from it. This seems to be the basis for the (rather misleading) question/answer, regarding immigrants, in the first post of this thread. Really, my initial comment was directed more to the disgusting tactics employed by some to twist and distort issues of basic fairness towards immigrants (and other groups of people), so as to use them to attack Democrats. That some are willing to screw over anybody to promote their political ideology is shown by some of the responses to my comment (not yours Itdiver, your comment was fair and I agree with it totally). And by the way, Ron, if you move to Canada or any other civilized country and have legal status there, you are entitled to health care and other benefits. I will apply for US citizenship as soon as I am eligible (September). When I can vote, do you think my choice might be influenced by who was willing to screw me over, and who treated me fairly, when I had no (political) voice? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #50 June 11, 2005 QuoteAnd by the way, Ron, if you move to Canada or any other civilized country and have legal status there, you are entitled to health care and other benefits. I had a friend and his family who did just this. He applied to Canada for immigration status and was accepted. Health care benefits for his family intact. He did it legally...no trying to circumvent the system...and won. I have great respect for him. Wish others (not you GeorgiaDon, 'cause you're also going about this the legal way) who would follow his example. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
