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Ron 10
QuoteCause we all know that those with no money have the same advantages and the equal opportunity to advance in this great United States of America.
Don't we?
That is NOT a function of Race.
Money gets you things....Well duh!
Do you think the people who were slaves are any worse off than a person who came over broke in the late 1800's?
Crying about how their family *might* have been slaves 150 years ago is not a reason why TODAY, THEY drop out of high school, do drugs, or have kids without being able to support them.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
QuoteEqually relevant may be a graph showing the wealth of those whose families once held slaves
If the Civil War didn't wipe them out financially, estate taxes did.
QuoteCause we all know that those with no money have the same advantages and the equal opportunity to advance in this great United States of America.
Nobody could argue that I had the same advantages and equal opportunity of those who had wealthy parents. I didn't. I had to build everythign I've got from scratch, or with other people's money that I borrowed for student loans and a house.
I had more struggles in law school than did the kids driving the BMW's their parents got them. I've got more struggles now than they do.
I also know that I've got a lot more struggles than my study buddy in law school - the Mexican immigrant now making 150k per year working for a big firm. He put his criminal youth behind him when he was engaging in petty crime and thuggery.
He doesn't have student loans to repay because he was on academic scholarship his second and third years - this because he's also the smartest motherfucker I've ever known. Law school and lawyering were easier for him than me.
So, it turns out that he struggled less than either a poor white guy like me or our "old money" compatriots. He had more advantages than any of us did and had an equal opportunity to show his capabilities. He's still got more advatages than I could ever hope to have.
So, would you agree that where we as individuals stand in society is a greater reflection of individual talents and ambitions than it is of wherefrom our ancestry hailed and the struggles they had?
Your theory does not explain outliers. My theory of individual drive, ambition and talent seems to account for everyone's status. I'm proof that you can take the boy out of the ghetto, and you can take the ghetto out of the boy. Cisco is, too. It's probably why we got along so well.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
unformed 0
QuoteCause we all know that those with no money have the same advantages and the equal opportunity to advance in this great United States of America.
Don't we?
Blues,
Cliff
I sense sarcasm here. I'm first-generation in the States. My parents were some broke motherfuckers. Both parents working 7 days a week. At 23, I've got two degrees and a damn good job.
So, yeah, there is opportunity regardless of how much money you have. IF and a very big IF IF , the parents want to actually see their kids succeed and are willing to put in the time to raise their children right and teach them and IF the kid is willing to get the fuck off his ass and do something with his life.
I have absolutely NO SYMPATHY for anybody who says they can't succeed because they've had a difficult life. It's not 'cause they've had a hard life, it's 'cause they're fucking lazy.
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QuoteGet the fuck over it people.
MEOW
QuoteQuoteCause we all know that those with no money have the same advantages and the equal opportunity to advance in this great United States of America.
Don't we?
That is NOT a function of Race.
Money gets you things....Well duh!
Do you think the people who were slaves are any worse off than a person who came over broke in the late 1800's?
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Of course.
White people "who came over broke in the late 1800's?" , didn't have to deal with being *BLACK* at a time when all Blacks were treated as "niggers" and worth less than the mules which plowed the fields.
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Crying about how their family *might* have been slaves 150 years ago is not a reason why TODAY, THEY drop out of high school, do drugs, or have kids without being able to support them.
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I'd say the reason for much of this is because they have decided to not join the "white mans' society" and legitimise his government. The same government which never attempted to make reperations for wrongs we all know were committed.
Listen Ron,
Slavery was wrong and I think you will admit that.
The decendants of the slaves have been denied their just inheritance (the value of their anscestors toil).
Even if you don't stand behind my last statement,fact is that there are many ,many blacks who feel this way.
How do you propose we make peace with them for the betterment of America?
Blues,
Cliff
unformed 0
QuoteHow do you propose we make peace with them for the betterment of America?
And what exactly do you want to do?
And do you really think they'll stop complaining after that?
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QuoteI'd say the reason for much of this is because they have decided to not join the "white mans' society" and legitimise his government. The same government which never attempted to make reperations for wrongs we all know were committed.
There's a lot of bad shit that happened in the past. That was the past. Get the fuck over it. You don't get a free penny just because you're great-great-great-great-grandmother might have been a slave.
This ad space for sale.
Quotedidn't have to deal with being *BLACK* at a time when all Blacks were treated as "niggers" and worth less than the mules which plowed the fields.
Seems to me the "WOPS," "kikes," "krauts," "micks" and "chinks" all faced this same difficulty.
And nobody can tell me that the anyone on this soil had it worse than the American Indians - the ones whom we didn't kill.
I think they've got a much better argument in favor of reparations than descendants of slaves could ever hope to have. Of course, they get casinos...
My wife is hotter than your wife.
aftermid 0
I wonder whether anyone objected to the summary way in which interim head coach Terry Robiskie was disregarded in favor of Romeo Crennel to coach the Browns.
Not that Romeo's is going to turn that waste of a franchise around, and not that great defensive cooridinators make great head coaches, but stand out cooridinators deserve a shot to say the least. And when you're dealing with Cleveland you are definitly saying the least. I wouldn't blame race on that.
Not that Romeo's is going to turn that waste of a franchise around, and not that great defensive cooridinators make great head coaches, but stand out cooridinators deserve a shot to say the least. And when you're dealing with Cleveland you are definitly saying the least. I wouldn't blame race on that.
There's a lot of bad shit that happened in the past. That was the past. Get the fuck over it. You don't get a free penny just because you're great-great-great-great-grandmother might have been a slave.
Unformed,
surely you are a man who understands the value of a dollar.
You are probably a guy who also understands the way compound interest works. You're probably thinking about your future and how if you put some money today in a Roth you'll see some real interest over the next 40 years.
You also will begrudgungly admit that slavery is,was, has always, been wrong.
I say it is an abomination before my God!!
Certainly , reasoned Men realize that slavery is wrong and that everyman who performs a fair days work deserves a fair days wages.
The same is true of those who were kept as slaves.
For every day they worked they deserve a fair days wages.
Compound interest is remarkable!
Can you calculate the amount of past wages due to one 1850 farm hand for one days labor?
Do you believe that those men who were held as slaves don't deserve that compensation?
Please explain your position.
Blues,
Cliff
QuoteBlack people need to start realizing that they are creating and fueling racism in our country and cut the shit out. First the NFL is mandated to interview at least one black candidate for head coach positions, now they are being forced to do the same for front office positions. This is the biggest load of shit I have ever heard of.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/07/AR2005060701550.html
For gods sake people, IT IS NOT ABOUT SKIN COLOR, IT IS ABOUT QUALIFICATIONS.
Black people need to stop taking pity on themselves solely because of skin color. The black man is the one fueling the racism fire, not the white man. Get the fuck over it people.
I don't think it is completely up to "black people" to get their act together. A lot blacks really need to grow up AND the liberal media and the government need to give them the opportunity to do so by eliminating the special treatment that so many have been brainwashed into thinking they are entitled to.
Being old as dirt (I'm 48), I have seen a lot of changes in the black community over the years. I have worked in environments where black employees were considered "untouchable" no matter how lazy or incompetent they were, but I think these environments are well on their way to being a thing of the past.
When the safety net is taken away and people, regardless of skin color, are given the opporunity to succeeed or fail on their own merits, most rise to the occasion. I'm sure this holds true for the NFL and any other employer.
I don't think the argument of lack of opportunity for minorities in the workplace holds much water any more. It is way past time for Affirmative Action, EEO, and all those other quota programs to go away.
As you have pointed out, these programs do fuel racism, because they are inherently racist in nature. They have caused a great deal of resentment and inefficiency in the workplace. I suspect that many small-to-medium sized businesses are very leery of hiring blacks because they cannot afford the overhead of having to deal with someone who may play the race card if passed over for a promotion or raise.
Walt
unformed 0
QuoteThere's a lot of bad shit that happened in the past. That was the past. Get the fuck over it. You don't get a free penny just because you're great-great-great-great-grandmother might have been a slave.
Unformed,
surely you are a man who understands the value of a dollar.
You are probably a guy who also understands the way compound interest works. You're probably thinking about your future and how if you put some money today in a Roth you'll see some real interest over the next 40 years.
Yeah, I know the value of a dollar. No, I'm not saving anything for the future. I just quit my 40k/year job, and am temporarily closing my 40k/year business so I can go backpack europe.
Quote
You also will begrudgungly admit that slavery is,was, has always, been wrong.
I say it is an abomination before my God!!
Not begrudgingly. It was one of the worst things that have ever happened. So was the Holocaust, so was stealing land from the American Indians.
Quote
Certainly , reasoned Men realize that slavery is wrong and that everyman who performs a fair days work deserves a fair days wages.
The same is true of those who were kept as slaves.
For every day they worked they deserve a fair days wages.
Compound interest is remarkable!
Can you calculate the amount of past wages due to one 1850 farm hand for one days labor?
Yeah, it's a ton.
Quote
Do you believe that those men who were held as slaves don't deserve that compensation?
They did. So they didn't receive it. However, we did go forward by freeing them, and allowing their descendants the opportunities to succeed. Yes, it took quite a while; yes there is still some discrimination going on, BUT you do have the same opportunities as anyone else. You can't wallow in self-pity and refuse to better yourself simply because your missing out on years of lost interest.
Tell me this:
What exactly do you want? I want an answer in specific detail, as in quantity and who's paying for it? And how are we going to make sure its descendants of slaves and not someone else?
There are quite a few people who were wronged in the history of the world. They got over it and decided they need to get on with their life. Why can't you?
This ad space for sale.
yeah, but it's too much trouble to dig them all up to pay them.QuoteDo you believe that those men who were held as slaves don't deserve that compensation?
Speed Racer
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Do you believe that those men who were held as slaves don't deserve that compensation?
They did. So they didn't receive it. However, we did go forward by freeing them[
Oh .., How Kind! LOL! You freed them? What a grand gesture !
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/b], and allowing their descendants the opportunities to succeed.
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You "allowed " them ? Again, how grande of you!
Yes, it took quite a while; yes there is still some discrimination going on, BUT you do have the same opportunities as anyone else.
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This is like shooting fish in a pond!
"There is still some discrimination" but we all have the same opportunity?
And you wonder why the desendants of slaves don't wish to legitemize the US govt by participating?
You wonder why the progeny of the slaves steal your cars and rape your women?
It is because they don't recognize your laws.
Even you don't recognize your laws. If you did you would compensate those who desended from slaves.
Blues,
Cliff
Quoteyeah, but it's too much trouble to dig them all up to pay them.QuoteDo you believe that those men who were held as slaves don't deserve that compensation?
That's funny--I'm gonna remember that one!!!
Walt
Ron 10
QuoteOf course.
White people "who came over broke in the late 1800's?" , didn't have to deal with being *BLACK* at a time when all Blacks were treated as "niggers" and worth less than the mules which plowed the fields
You think that was better than being a mic, whop, kike, wet back, or indian? Not by a long shot.
QuoteI'd say the reason for much of this is because they have decided to not join the "white mans' society" and legitimise his government. The same government which never attempted to make reperations for wrongs we all know were committed.
You think a black man whos great great grandfather stayed in Africa is better off than a black guy born here? I don't.
QuoteListen Ron,
Slavery was wrong and I think you will admit that
Yep, but I never owned a slave, my great great grandparents never owned a slave...So why do you think *I* owe shit?
QuoteThe decendants of the slaves have been denied their just inheritance (the value of their anscestors toil).
1. Would their inheretance been better if they were in Africa still?
2. You mention compound interest...Yes, IF they were able to save that money and invest it they would be rich....But if my Great great grandad was able to invest his money I would be rich also...Guess what? Very few were able to invest back then (and very few even today invest). Of those that had money before the civil war many lost it DURING the war. How about the Slaves pay me for my family losing its fortune due to the war that freed them?
People born in, or coming to American need to be glad they are here...They need to act right and make something of themselves, not expect a pay check from 150 years ago to arrive....It would have been spent already.
You never answered my questions.
1. Do you think the people who were slaves are any worse off than a person who came over broke in the late 1800's?
2. How is their family *might* having been slaves 150 years ago a reason why TODAY, THEY drop out of high school, do drugs, or have kids without being able to support them?
QuoteHow do you propose we make peace with them for the betterment of America?
People quit waiting on a free ride. They take advantage of the opportunities they are provided in America and they try to make something of themselves.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
No. It is simply unfair to guys like me who have no athletic ability. I don't have the size to be a lineman or a linebacker. I don't have the speed to be a receiver or secondary. I lack the arm to be a QB, the quickness of a receiver. I lack the leg of a punter or kicker. I lack technique in all of the above.
All of the above mean that my career in the NFL was over before it started. Which is okay.
What DOES upset me is the circumstance like that for the Lions. Matt Millen wanted Steve Mariucci to be the coach. That was the guy. Rather than waste everyone's time with interviewing a bunch of candidates who were not going to get the job, including what would have been certainly token minority interviewees, he simply hired Mooch and got fined $200,000.
I've got a problem with a league directive to waste time, energy and money.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
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