KATO33 0 #226 June 13, 2005 QuotePlease give me one REAL example of how the black man does not have the same opportunity as a white man. Please use real world scenarios and factual information as to where a persons opportunity is limited solely based on skin color. My wife (who is Black) was told by a counselor (a White woman) that she didn't have what it took to become a doctor. My wife being young and impressionable assumed the counselor who had seen 1000's of students before her was right. As it turns out this counselor never recommended any Black students go into medicine and was subsequently removed from her position. Those Black students were denied the opportunity to apply to Med. School and possibly become physicians because they took the advice of a racist counselor. Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KATO33 0 #227 June 13, 2005 QuoteWrong, this thread exists because some *Think* they are being held back and BS rules are being put into place to please them. So the racism that exist today it's all in our head? Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #228 June 13, 2005 QuoteThink for just a second, or scroll back to where I addressed this. It's an interview. An interview guarantees what? Nothing. So what's being handed out? There aren't a finite number of interviews so it's not taking an opportunity away from someone else. So, what if the black person interviewed does not get the job...Whats next? Claim it was just a "token" interview, and demand that the NFL have a ratio of black coaches? QuoteIf it's such a horrible policy why did the NFL agree to it? Cause it easier to say, "Sure, OK". Do the token interview and produce the illusion of equality...till people say "Why have you interviewed "X" number of blacks for coaching jobs, but not hired any?" Then all hell breaks out again."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #229 June 13, 2005 QuoteSo the racism that exist today it's all in our head? Racism is ALL in peoples heads. I think some people look at EVERY situation as if the choices were made based on race alone. Those people think that if they didn't get a job it was because they were black. Those people instead of accepting responability for their actions prefer to blame "The Man". As for your wife, so what she was told that she would not do well in Medical school? I know plenty of Dr's that were told the same thing and they are white. They went anyway. Maybe she just accepted it and they didn't? When people stop demanding special treatment based on race (BTW thats racism), and stop blaming all of their problems on what color their skin is...then racism will go away. As long as people hold on to it, even embrace it....It will be here for good. Do I think there are still racists? YES. I just think they come in all colors and wonder why the black variety is encouraged, even celebrated. Edit to add the defintion: Racism (n) 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race Whats AA again? Discrimination dis·crim·i·na·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-skrm-nshn) n. The act of discriminating. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KATO33 0 #230 June 13, 2005 QuoteWhen people stop demanding special treatment based on race (BTW thats racism), and stop blaming all of their problems on what color their skin is...then racism will go away. Is it "demanding special treament" to demand a counselor give advice to students based on merit not race? Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eflynn 0 #231 June 13, 2005 There is blatant promotion of the black community going on in todays day and age blatant: noisy especially in a vulgar or offensive manner. Assuming you knew the denotative definition of the word before you wrote this, it says a lot about your views of Black people in general. How does one promote it's own community and at the same time, as you said, "segregate themselves from the rest of the world?" If you're promoting yourself how are you trying to keep yourself seperate? You're speaking in circles and once you nick the surface there's little to no truth underneath. BET: Would our community ever accept something named White Entertainment Television station? Hell no. When was the last time you watched BET? It's MTV with Black hosts. How would WET differ from MTV outside the name? But let me play along with your sophomoric rationale... Let's say BET was a super political voice for the Black community, which it's not, and you felt there was a need for White people to be represented on television the same way. Perhaps you would create ABC, NBC, CBS... By default, most entities aren't representing Black people. Do you think JET magazine would allow a white female model in the magazine? Hell no. If Cosmopolitan turned down a black model solely based on skin color would they be labeled a racist organization and slapped with a lawsuit? Hell yes. Care to explain this one? First of all, JET magazine isn't a fashion publication like Cosmo. Second, if you look at the covers of JET they generally have notable Black figures, politicians, musicians, artists, businessmen ect. Third, if you're referring to the JET Beauty of the Week there actually have been White women featured there. So what was your point again? The black man needs to realize that the promotion of "black only" oriented type organizations does not help the cause. BET and JET magazine aren't Black only. There's nothing stopping you from watching or buying a magazine. It sounds like you just aren't that interested in BET's programming or JET's content. The same way I'm not interested in the Country Music Channel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #232 June 13, 2005 QuoteIs it "demanding special treament" to demand a counselor give advice to students based on merit not race? Nope. But having the NFL interview a black for every coaches job *IS*. I would like nothing better for people to be judged solely on merit. AA is nothing like that."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #233 June 13, 2005 Quote*** My wife (who is Black) was told by a counselor (a White woman) that she didn't have what it took to become a doctor. My wife being young and impressionable assumed the counselor who had seen 1000's of students before her was right. As it turns out this counselor never recommended any Black students go into medicine and was subsequently removed from her position. Those Black students were denied the opportunity to apply to Med. School and possibly become physicians because they took the advice of a racist counselor. Sorry this happened. However, your wife was not denied anything. She still had the full right to apply if she chose to do so. She opted not too based on the counselors recommendations. Now if this counselor said you cannot apply because you are black then that would be a different story. We have already determined that racism exists today, all races are effected. However, your wife was not DENIED anything based on skin color. She may have been given bad advice, but she still had the right to do whatever she wanted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eflynn 0 #234 June 13, 2005 So, what if the black person interviewed does not get the job...Whats next? Claim it was just a "token" interview, and demand that the NFL have a ratio of black coaches? Then he doesn't ge the job and life goes on. That's what's next. We can "what if" all day. If the agreed on policy is in place, and it's being adhered to, then there's nothing to complain about. Cause it easier to say, "Sure, OK". Do the token interview and produce the illusion of equality...till people say "Why have you interviewed "X" number of blacks for coaching jobs, but not hired any?" If they were all "token interviews" then the number of Black coaches wouldn't have increased after the policy was instituted. There is always going to be someone who's unhappy with whatever policy exsist. Whether it's "only d licensed pilots land here" or "after 9pm only 18 year old swimmers allowed." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eflynn 0 #235 June 13, 2005 But having the NFL interview a black for every coaches job *IS*. I would like nothing better for people to be judged solely on merit. The unfortunate thing is people sometimes have to be forced to do what's right. i.e. giving all people an equal opportunity. It would be wonderful if people did it without being forced to do so but that's not the world we live in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #236 June 13, 2005 Quoteblatant: noisy especially in a vulgar or offensive manner Push is pretty noisy. So is Jessie Jackson and Sharpton. QuoteIf you're promoting yourself how are you trying to keep yourself seperate? Thats easy. Happens all the time in sports. You promote yourself, and seperate yourself. In the Military we had a saying "We own the night". It said we were different than other militarys...And it was a promotion. QuoteWhen was the last time you watched BET? It's MTV with Black hosts. How would WET differ from MTV outside the name? BET, or the Gay network exist. WET would never be allowed since it would be racism.... Tell me, how is allowing a color specific TV station NOT racism? And why is it OK only for Blacks? QuoteFirst of all, JET magazine isn't a fashion publication like Cosmo. Second, if you look at the covers of JET they generally have notable Black figures, politicians, musicians, artists, businessmen ect. Third, if you're referring to the JET Beauty of the Week there actually have been White women featured there. So what was your point again? I think his point is that if a white magazine came out with the SAME format as "Jet" it would be labled racist. How is "Jet" not racist? Do they ever profile notable white figures, politicians, musicians, artists, businessmen ect? If not, and by their own charter...Are they not a racist publication? QuoteBET and JET magazine aren't Black only. There's nothing stopping you from watching or buying a magazine. It sounds like you just aren't that interested in BET's programming or JET's content. The same way I'm not interested in the Country Music Channel. Except CMT is "County Music Televison", not "White Music TV". You are free to turn it on or not, just like I am free to turn on BET. However CMT was not founded to support whites. It was set to promote County Music...Well, OK it was created to make money just like BET. But if you read a press release where some guys were comming out with WET, and even though the programs didn't interest you, would you consider the station racist?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #237 June 13, 2005 QuoteThe unfortunate thing is people sometimes have to be forced to do what's right. i.e. giving all people an equal opportunity. It would be wonderful if people did it without being forced to do so but that's not the world we live in. How is AA equal?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KATO33 0 #238 June 13, 2005 QuoteShe may have been given bad advice, but she still had the right to do whatever she wanted. That was my point she and other Black students were given bad advice because they were Black in other words they were denied proper counseling because they were black. Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #239 June 13, 2005 It CAN make things equal, in the case of the racist boss who would never even consider interviewing or hiring a black person. And I think there are a lot more of those than people are willing to admit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #240 June 13, 2005 QuoteIt CAN make things equal No, it will not make things EQUAL. Giving special will never be equal....EVER, its impossible. Quotein the case of the racist boss who would never even consider interviewing or hiring a black person. What about the racist black person who would never hire a white guy? Or the racist whhite guy that would never hire a jew, or a catholic? or a guy that was not from his home town, or the guy that didn't liek football, or...well you get my point. Giving special treatment to ONE group does not make racism go away."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eflynn 0 #241 June 13, 2005 When you say it's all in people's heads it sounds as if it's not real. I don't feel like that's what you mean but I could be wrong When people stop demanding special treatment based on race (BTW thats racism), and stop blaming all of their problems on what color their skin is...then racism will go away. Let's say that all Black people "stop demanding special treatment (although I don't feel like we do nor do I think you think we ALL do). If there are still people that refuse opportunity to these same Black people, because they're Black, then racism will still exist. It's not going to just go away if Black people turn the other cheek. All the policies and notions we're talking about are as a result of one another. It didn't begin with AA, it didn't begin with jim crow, it didn't begin with the NFL mandate. If you go back to the beginning of the US and examine how the country was founded, what it's principles were then you'll see a clear correlation to what's going on now. It was never intended to be "fair" or "equal." That's part of the foundation, what everything else that comes after it rests on. If you build a home on a poor foundation, no matter what you do from that point it will never be as it was intended. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KATO33 0 #242 June 13, 2005 QuoteI think his point is that if a white magazine came out with the SAME format as "Jet" it would be labled racist. The reason Jet and BET came into existence is there was a lack of Black representation in American media. Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eflynn 0 #243 June 13, 2005 Push is pretty noisy. So is Jessie Jackson and Sharpton Do you know why PUSH is allowed to make so much noise? Because they're not a threat. And they're certaintly not the voice of the Black community. Neither are Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton any more than Neal Bortz or Newt Gingrich is the voice of the White community. They're on tv/radio so people assume they speak for all of us. I told you this once before, but there's a class action lawsuit against Jesse Jackson for in a nutshell"speaking for all Black people." In addition if you look at the post I responded to, he mentioned JET magazine and BET. Not Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. Thats easy. Happens all the time in sports. You promote yourself, and seperate yourself. In the Military we had a saying "We own the night". It said we were different than other militarys...And it was a promotion. We're not talking about sports we're talking about a group of people. The military example doesn't correlate with races of people. BET, or the Gay network exist. WET would never be allowed since it would be racism.... Tell me, how is allowing a color specific TV station NOT racism? And why is it OK only for Blacks? Did you read my post? It's not a color specific TV station. When was the last time you watched BET? On top of all that it's owned by Viacom which also owns MTV. There are no Black execs at Viacom. There aren't that many White people on BET for the same reason there aren't that many Black people on the Country Music Station. They're just not interested. Honestly, after you sit down and think about it, WET wouldn't differ that much from ABC without "My Wife and Kids." I think his point is that if a white magazine came out with the SAME format as "Jet" it would be labled racist. How is "Jet" not racist? Do they ever profile notable white figures, politicians, musicians, artists, businessmen ect? If not, and by their own charter...Are they not a racist publication? NOBODY would care if there was a white version of JET magazine. No they don't profile notable White figures becasuse Newsweek, Time, Money ect already do. There's no need for the White version of JET or WET. Both entities grew from a need/desire to highlight the accomplishments and achievements of Black people. And, again, if you read JET or watch BET you really wouldn't be that upset. BET is 90% music and JET is nowhere near the caliber of Time or Newsweek. The "you have one, I want one too" way of thinking can be a bit pointless. Except CMT is "County Music Televison", not "White Music TV". You are free to turn it on or not, just like I am free to turn on BET. However CMT was not founded to support whites. It was set to promote County Music...Well, OK it was created to make money just like BET. But if you read a press release where some guys were comming out with WET, and even though the programs didn't interest you, would you consider the station racist There's more to the station than the name. If it was changed to "Urban Entertainment Televison" would we still be having this converstion. Yes. Because when you turn "UET" on you would still see the same thing. BET wasn't founded to "support Blacks;" It was founded to highlight and display things that mattered to Black people be it music, politics, culture ect. Today it's basically music. I remember watching Rap City on BET in '87 from start to finish. No changing the station, or going to the fridge. Why? Because that was the ONLY place I could see videos for the music I liked. I still remember trying to get the entire dance routine down from EPMD's "You Gots to Chill." Today there are definitely more in number and more diverse images of Black people on television but as you said eariler, BET is now a profitable enterprise so nobody is going to simply disband it. As far as the WET press release, I would just laugh. Just because one race does something doesn't make it racist. It's not that simple. There's nothing stopping White people from starting WET. Or do they already realize it sounds hella stupid and there's no need for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #244 June 13, 2005 >What should the cut-off age be? Make it easy. When the last person discriminated against is no longer working. In 1964, schools were basically integrated and Congress passed the Civil Rights Act, guaranteeing equal availability of education - so set that as the start date. >So you are now suggesting we solve race discrimination with age >discrimination? Nope. See above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #245 June 13, 2005 So what have we learned? There is good racism (when it benefits the a special interest) and bad racism (when it benefits someone else). Now I got it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #246 June 13, 2005 QuoteWhen you say it's all in people's heads it sounds as if it's not real. I don't feel like that's what you mean but I could be wrong Racism exists. But it is not physical, it is an attitude. Attitude is all in a persons mind. QuoteLet's say that all Black people "stop demanding special treatment (although I don't feel like we do nor do I think you think we ALL do). If there are still people that refuse opportunity to these same Black people, because they're Black, then racism will still exist. It's not going to just go away if Black people turn the other cheek. Do you think that supporting one variation of racism (black to white) will make another (white to black) go away? QuoteAll the policies and notions we're talking about are as a result of one another. It didn't begin with AA, it didn't begin with jim crow, it didn't begin with the NFL mandate. If you go back to the beginning of the US and examine how the country was founded, what it's principles were then you'll see a clear correlation to what's going on now. It was never intended to be "fair" or "equal." That's part of the foundation, what everything else that comes after it rests on. If you build a home on a poor foundation, no matter what you do from that point it will never be as it was intended. Are you saying that the foundation of the US is bad? QuoteWe the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. Seems pretty good to me...Although I will admit that it was not PRACTICED like it was written. They tried to explain it better in 1865 QuoteAmendment XIII Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. Some people are just stupid, so they had to state it even better in 1870 QuoteAmendment XV Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude. Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. Still yes it took years for people to accept it...Some still have not. But encouraging one form of racism, will not make another dissapear."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #247 June 13, 2005 QuoteIf they were all "token interviews" then the number of Black coaches wouldn't have increased after the policy was instituted. Here is another issue - correlation versus causation. For example, when I was in the reserves, reservists weren't being deployed for war - the war in Iraq was not something being seriously considered. Yet, within a few months of my departure, a war in Iraq came. Therefore, my departure from the Reserves caused deployments to occur, right? Probably not. There is a correlation, but likely not a causation. the rise in black coaches in the NFL can be correlated with a change in policies. But, are you gonna tell the old white owners and their firmly-entrenched societal viewpoints that a balck head coach os good for them? Or, has there been a meteoric rise in the number of good black coaches? I'd recommend that you read up on the Pollard alliance. Did you know that Art Shell interviewed for the head coaching job in Miami? Did you know that the Pollard Alliance argued against Art Shell and any other minority candidate interviewing for the job? Did you know that Art Shell took heat from them for doing it, anyway? Did you know that the Fritz Pollard Alliance sent out a message to all minority candidates not to interview with the Lions, and black coaches DID boycott that search? The Pollard Alliance was upset with Shell because it saved Miami $200k. So, here's a question: Should the Pollard Alliance, who is charged with ensuring that minority coaches get interviews, be calling for minority candidate boycotts of teams? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #248 June 13, 2005 QuoteThe reason Jet and BET came into existence is there was a lack of Black representation in American media. You never answer the question....If WET came out would you consider it racist? Also, does that mean that one day BET, and Jet will close down?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eflynn 0 #249 June 13, 2005 Do you think that supporting one variation of racism (black to white) will make another (white to black) go away? I don't think it will ever go away. Are you saying that the foundation of the US is bad I'm saying that race relations in this country have a terrible foundation. Black people in were initially viewed as property not people of even Americans. So simply saying "Okay everyone, they're not slaves anymore, they're people now" doesn't change how people think or feel. They're just words. You quoted the constitution and said it wasn't practiced as it was written. Yes and no. Perhaps to those it was intended to protect, which is debatable, but slaves (Black people at that time) definitely weren't taken into consideration when it was written. So from jump, all those glorious notion of freedom and liberty aren't really relative to Black people. Later, once Black people were "recognized as people," the constitution was amended to basically include us. I'm not saying the US is all bad. I'm saying race relations are what they are today in large part due to the way things here began. Not what was written on paper but what was practiced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #250 June 13, 2005 QuoteDo you know why PUSH is allowed to make so much noise? Ah, yes. Because if you oppose them you are a "Racist". So most just ignore them. I am surprized that more in the black community are not telling them to shut up. Quote I told you this once before, but there's a class action lawsuit against Jesse Jackson for in a nutshell"speaking for all Black people." Have you noticed that is not on the news? And how some bashed Cosby for speaking his mind? QuoteCosby's blunt appraisal left Howard University President H. Patrick Swygert and NAACP President Kweisi Mfume looking "stone-faced," The Washington Post reports. Theodore Shaw, head of the NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund, was quick to tell the crowd that most people on welfare are not black. Dick Gregory pretended to steal Cosby's NAACP medal, prompting Cosby to joke, "This is what happens when they get old." Or, I offered that Cosby's comments "betray classist, elitist viewpoints rooted in generational warfare," that he was "ill-informed on the critical and complex issues that shape people's lives," and that his words only "reinforce suspicions about black humanity." Before he is finished, Cosby beats up on the black poor for their horrible education, their style of dress, the names they give their children, their backward speech and their consumptive habits. As a cruel coda, Cosby even suggests to the black poor that "God is tired of you."--From the book, Is Bill Cosby Right?, by Michael Eric Dyson QuoteWe're not talking about sports we're talking about a group of people. The military example doesn't correlate with races of people. We are talking about groups. The sports teams are groups, that seem to be important enough that some demand that they play the game they want theem to play by. Also, the military example works just fine. you have one group of people promoting themselves and saying how they are better. QuoteDid you read my post? It's not a color specific TV station BLACK entertainment Television? From BET.com "Find headline and music news, explore articles on health and lifestyle, and check out sections for African American women and professionals" Shows like "Black College Football" where only black teams play. The "Cousin Jeff Chronicals" Quote Welcome Thank you for joining us. "The Chronicles" is a quarterly series that explores pressing issues and stories from the Black and Latino communities. The 'N' Word Tune in for Part II of BET’s thought-provoking and informative public affairs special, "Cousin Jeff Chronicles." As the continuation of the premiere episode, titled “The Bridge is Over: The Gap Between The Civil Rights and Hip-Hop Generations,” host Jeff Johnson examines the most inflammatory word in our community – the “N” word. Unfiltered and uncensored, this hard-hitting installment features frank discussion of the word "nigger," which is racially derogatory on one hand yet a prominent part of hip-hop music and urban slang. Can you name ONE show on BET that is aimed at whites? QuoteNOBODY would care if there was a white version of JET magazine. You are wrong, Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton the NAACP all would be up in arms. It would be called "Racist". QuoteNo they don't profile notable White figures becasuse Newsweek, Time, Money ect already do. There's no need for the White version of JET or WET. Both entities grew from a need/desire to highlight the accomplishments and achievements of Black people. And, again, if you read JET or watch BET you really wouldn't be that upset. BET is 90% music and JET is nowhere near the caliber of Time or Newsweek. You claim its not all about blacks, but then you say it is to "highlight the accomplishments and achievements of Black people." Which is it? If it is only there to "highlight the accomplishments and achievements of Black people."...Then it is discriminatory and racist. QuoteThe "you have one, I want one too" way of thinking can be a bit pointless You mean how blacks have BET and JET? Or is it only OK for Blacks to have these things? QuoteBET wasn't founded to "support Blacks;" It was founded to highlight and display things that mattered to Black people be it music, politics, culture ect. How is that not racist? QuoteAs far as the WET press release, I would just laugh YOU maybe, but there would be a big stink about it from several other blacks. QuoteThere's nothing stopping White people from starting WET. Or do they already realize it sounds hella stupid and there's no need for it. Well there is no need for it....But that does not mean that people would not rasie a stink about it. BTW I don't even have cable. But "The 'N' Word" I would actually watch...anyone wanna tape it and send it to me?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
