My, my, isn't the US a great place?

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Its not that I want them to have more control, has nothing to do with that, the opposite is true , over all I think our govt has to much control in some areas and not enough in others.

What I do believe in is the fact that we live in a democracy, is it perfect? NO do I agree with everything we do ? NO do I want things to be different ? YES however I do believe that we choose as a country who is elected as president, and that by doing so we as a whole need to support the decsions or find a way to change it without putting others at harm or resorting to childish acts.

It is my priviliege to be in this country , it is my right to defend her.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[storm1977 0]

Rookie,

You will soon find out that arguing with EBSB52 is like booing at the Special Olympics.

I wouldn't even bother with the guy...you will never make him see the light. The fact is, America has turned into a bleeding heart breeding ground. The outward stupidity of the masses about american history is what will eventually destroy us.

Our founding fathers had a concept, a dream of what america should be. You know what it is, and I know what it is, but many do not. People today want to change america, they want to turn it into a communist or socialist culture...with peace and love... yada yada yada.

That is not what we (America) are about. Those are not the ideas and the principals of the foundation of this nation.

Hard work and dedication = success.
Small government (Both parties failed us here)!

When the British didn't like the tyranny and injustices in Jolly old England, they left and sought a new country and way of life.
I suggest all those here in the US that feel the government is like that of 18th Century England, go and do the same. Hell, let California sussede(sp?) and you can start you own "New" nation there.

I'm on your side Rookie :-)
But realize, you will make few friends here if you don't
wear the right clothes, jump the right rig, and tow the
liberal line

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Ron 10]

Quote

Huge cuts to jobs programs: Billions for the useless war....

I guess you would rather just hand money out to lazy people for having kids.

I can see a need to help people, but what you want is an allowance from the government for eveything.

You want to spend Uncle Sam's checks like they were your own....I'd rather you not have access to MY accounts.

BTW Congress voted on it. Thats how America works.

Quote

The measure, which passed 250-151

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Alias 0]

Quote

Selfish nation hhmmmm?

We give more per capita than any other nation in the world to all kinds of charities

You are incorrect. I thought the same for years until I researched and found the the US is no where near the front of the pack when it came to "per capita" charitable spending - Nation or individual

Compiled from reports by Reuters and U.N. agencies. In regards to the recent tsunami

The $350 million (9.4% of the total world government gifts so far) that the U.S. government has contributed to the Tsunami relief effort is still substantially short of what our fair share should be when compared to what other nations are giving.

It is less than 2/10 of one percent of the total of what has been spent on the Iraq invasion/occupation. Two days worth

In per capita terms, U.S. development assistance is near the bottom of the heap, averaging roughly 13 cents a day--or under $50 a year--for each of its roughly 280 million citizens.

No time now to provide links, but they are easily found. I was also surprised to find these results....

Carpe Diem

[Alias 0]

Quote

But it's the leaches of the nation who drag it down. The ones who never put anything into the system and just sit with there hand out.

You might want to look at the real numbers. The baby boomers are about to shock you with the SS payments they will be taking. Between military spending and paying out social security to those WHO DID CONTRIBUTE, mix that with Medicade (because US Healthcare is way over priced and abused by profesionals) You will see that spending on the "leaches" is way below what you think it is

If you want to be angry at someone for taking from the system, move your anger to anyone hitting the SS age. Get pissed at your grandparents.....that's where a shit load goes...and will grow very very soon.

Just shedding light - look up the numbers, I think you will be surprised - the poor inner city population that has been the target of these discussions is not the problem you think it is

Carpe Diem

[Ron 10]

Quote

You are incorrect. I thought the same for years until I researched and found the the US is no where near the front of the pack when it came to "per capita" charitable spending - Nation or individual

Who cares what %? We still gave more.

Quote

The $350 million (9.4% of the total world government gifts so far) that the U.S. government has contributed to the Tsunami relief effort is still substantially short of what our fair share should be when compared to what other nations are giving.

Those are only GOVERNMENT dollars. Got info on the private sector?

Quote

The $350 million (9.4% of the total world government gifts so far

One country 9.4% of the TOTAL sent.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Gawain 0]

Congressional Budgeting 101:

"Cuts" are never cuts. They are reductions in the rate of an increase for a given budget. To my knowledge or memory, Congress has never passed a budget where the bottom line was actually lower than the previous fiscal year.

The "millions" noted in this article are nothing in the scheme of the $2+Tr budget. There is a solid summary in a PDF file on the White House web site. Surprisingly, it's pretty easy to read. You can find it here: http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/budget/2006/toc.html

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Alias 0]

Quote

Who cares what %?

I think that would be rushmc, who made the statement and it was based on "per capita"

Quote

we still gave more

But put the aid on a per-capita basis and you get a different "generosity ranking". By this measure, Norwegians gave by far the most, with combined governmental and private donations amounting to $59 per head -- seven times more than Americans and 10 times more than Japanese.

I wonder how much of the 857 billion dollar US pledge has actually been given or even earmarked.

Although I'd agree that there are major political motives for Japan - they have already paid in full their 540 million - within days of annoucing it.

Being an American and seeing first hand the constant private/religious generosity around me, I would have thought we were also.


- back to topic-

52% of the FY2005 Discrestionary Budget goes to the military.

I mean, ya got 421 BILLION for the military and 60 billion for education and 51 billion for health. A little out of whack in my eyes considering the healthcare issues we have now and to come. And the lack of popularity the war had and has with many Americans.

It is very true that the spending on transportation, agriculture and environmental issues is much lower then could be. Because of Iraq.

We do have other issues that need our immidiate attention to make the US stronger in other ways-

Just doesnt seem to be a popular idea in this thread that a portion of those funds could actually accomplish a benificial result for everyday Americans in these areas. Not just the so called "leaches"

Carpe Diem

[rickjump1 0]

Quote

The fact is, America has turned into a bleeding heart breeding ground. The outward stupidity of the masses about american history is what will eventually destroy us................. I like your whole thread with the above in particular. My wife just spent a whole year trying to bring kids up to state and federal standards. It was all math and no history. Some had little English skills and many had incompetent parents. They have no idea why they are Americans. American culture is in danger of being lost. Some will tell you it's already gone. I haven't given up yet. Just wonder if the local kids know why they are shooting off fireworks and it's very dry.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

• Quote

[Ron 10]

Quote

But put the aid on a per-capita basis and you get a different "generosity ranking". By this measure, Norwegians gave by far the most, with combined governmental and private donations amounting to $59 per head -- seven times more than Americans and 10 times more than Japanese.

Yes, and while it is nice to give, how much in real dollars is that %?

I mean would you rather get 10,000.00 from me, or would you prefer 1% of my salary?

Also who's business is it how much you, me , or anyone gives?

It is a really stupid thing to measure. "Well, Bob is better than Steve since he gives 15% to the Church." What a fucked up way to measure a persons worth. It done by a bunch of busy bodies.

Still, Americans think in terms of Raw dollars...And in raw dollars we gave more than anyone else.

And yes, I would like to see more money spent on the US first.

One really nice step would be to quit giving aid to all these other countries. Stop giving FEDERAL money to Africa to deal with Aids...Spend that money instead here in the US for finding a vacine, or a cure. Stop being Japans major defense force. Let them pay for their own military...I can find all kinds of stuff to drop.

Why did we offer 857 billion dollars in aid to anyone when we have people dying here in the US?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Casurf1978 0]

Careful what you preach. Back in 2001 over $10 billion was given to the airline industry, your industry, in the form of Gov subsidised loans and over 5 billion in the form of grants. Do you think Delta would've survived if goverment assitance wasn't handed out. Personally I was against this. A few airlines would've filed for Chap 11, some would've gone under and others would've emerged stronger and leaner. So it's ok to bail out an industry that's in trouble, but screw people when they lose their jobs or come across tough times.

[billvon 2,991]

>You will soon find out that arguing with EBSB52 is like booing at the
>Special Olympics.

Your one warning.

[Alias 0]

Quote

Quote

But put the aid on a per-capita basis and you get a different "generosity ranking". By this measure, Norwegians gave by far the most, with combined governmental and private donations amounting to $59 per head -- seven times more than Americans and 10 times more than Japanese.

Quote

Yes, and while it is nice to give, how much in real dollars is that %?

I see your point. But isnt it like saying " Coca Cola rules! ABC soda only gave $1000 to "The Help Fund" and Coca Cola gave $5000".... Although Coke has 50 billion in sales and ABC has 5 million. Who was more generous with their efforts?

Your right - it was more total dollars, but the potential vs countries with way less wealth was way less - 7 times less. It does make some what of a statement concerning charitable actions.

Quote

I mean would you rather get 10,000.00 from me, or would you prefer 1% of my salary?

With that logic, I'll assume you have a 2 million dollar salary and double your 10K. We are much larger in "salary" then all the countries ahead of us.

Quote

Also who's business is it how much you, me , or anyone gives?

Agreed - but if one goes around and falsely proclaims a certain level of giving "US gives the most per capita" and is incorrect - I feel re-education is an appropriate response.

Quote

Still, Americans think in terms of Raw dollars...And in raw dollars we gave more than anyone else.

But it is so easy for the rest of the world to acknowledge the difference between total giving and potential giving based on ones wealth.

Yes, there is much more to spend out tax dollars on then Iraq!

The US has the Highest Rate of Childhood Poverty in the industrialized world. IN the US 1 of every 6 children (1 of 3 children of color) live in poverty. In Sweden - 1 of 36; Germany - 1 of 20; and Britain 1 of 15.

The US is #13 in young adults enrolled in Bachelor Degree college programs (tied with Italy). Finland is #1.

The initial cost of the war in Iraq ($100B) is THREE TIMES more than the Federal Government spends on K-12 education.

Military spending consumes 26 cents of your tax dollar (total budget = mandatory and discretionary spending). Education receives a mere 4 cents and class sizes keep rising!

I would imagine I sound like a Leftist Liberal to most at this point, which really isnt the case.

Just sickened by the priority of the Bush Admin to proceed with a war like this. There is so much that seems of higher value to America as a whole, and quickly deteriorating.

Carpe Diem

• Quote

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I see your point. But isnt it like saying " Coca Cola rules! ABC soda only gave $1000 to "The Help Fund" and Coca Cola gave $5000".... Although Coke has 50 billion in sales and ABC has 5 million. Who was more generous with their efforts?

There are two people:

Those that appreciate any type of giving.

Those that don't appreciate any type of giving unless it's "give til it hurts".

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Alias 0]

Quote

Mention "terrorist' and the Bill of Rights goes up in smoke. Without any judicial process

Quote

Please tell me what civil liberties you have been stripped of since the Patriot Act became law.

The surveillance act relaxed that standard, so no evidence of a crime is necessary. Instead, intelligence authorities can go to a secret court and obtain a search warrant simply by demonstrating that the primary purpose of their investigation is to gather foreign intelligence and the person in question is a proven agent of a foreign power.

Few people would likely find that egregious. But once the door is cracked for a due process exception, kicking it wide open becomes much simpler.

And that's exactly what the Patriot Act does. Its Section 218 expands on the surveillance act standard to allow the same secret courts to grant warrants if federal law enforcement agents can certify -- not prove by hard evidence -- that the person to be searched is a suspected terrorist or a suspected foreign agent. No longer does terrorism or foreign intelligence need to be the "primary" purpose of the investigation;

This may seem like a trivial change, but it isn't

Worse, it will allow law enforcement to piggy back ordinary criminal investigations on to the espionage or terror warrant.

The foreign surveillance court recognized the danger and initially refused to implement the expanded powers, but it was overruled by a never-before-convened three-judge panel.

Encouraging sneak-and-peek

Perhaps even worse are the Patriot Act's "sneak-and-peek" clauses.

These provisions, which the House overwhelmingly voted to repeal, extend the Justice Department's ability to conduct secret searches of the homes and businesses of individuals -- citizens and noncitizens alike -- not just in terrorism or espionage cases, but for all criminal investigations.

Certainly, the Justice Department has to meet the higher probable cause standard to conduct the searches. Still, authorities do not have to notify homeowners of the searches as long as the Justice Department can show that notification would in any way jeopardize the investigation.

Since notification would in almost every case undermine an investigation, this could effectively spell the end of the "knock and announce" requirement on police executing searches, a major abrogation of privacy rights.

The Fourth Amendment was added to the Constitution because of the Founders' deep-seated revulsion against the practices of their former English masters, who had wide-ranging powers to ransack homes in search of any evidence of tax evasion or other crimes.

Carpe Diem

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Quote

I see your point. But isnt it like saying " Coca Cola rules! ABC soda only gave $1000 to "The Help Fund" and Coca Cola gave $5000".... Although Coke has 50 billion in sales and ABC has 5 million. Who was more generous with their efforts?

There are two people:

Those that appreciate any type of giving.

Those that don't appreciate any type of giving unless it's "give til it hurts".

There's also
this lesson
from a famous guy:

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Alias 0]

Quote

Quote

I see your point. But isnt it like saying " Coca Cola rules! ABC soda only gave $1000 to "The Help Fund" and Coca Cola gave $5000".... Although Coke has 50 billion in sales and ABC has 5 million. Who was more generous with their efforts?

There are two people:

Those that appreciate any type of giving.

Those that don't appreciate any type of giving unless it's "give til it hurts".

Assuming no one appreciates what the US gives because it was pointed out how much others gave who had much less....is that. Assuming

Remember rushmc's post here, I was mearly correcting an incorrect remark made. Unless you can debate that remark?

Carpe Diem

[rehmwa 2]

Put it back in church God-boy.

I'm sure the charity appreciated the widow's sacrificing attitude. I'm also sure they didn't give back the wealthy's contributions. And the church is like government, no amount is enough and any method, including public shaming, is allowed as long as it generates more revenue.

If you are doing research, and Bill Gates made an insincere token contribution of $200,000, while I came over and took money from my daughter's college fund and gave you half of it (nowhere near $200K), I'm sure you'd appreciate my gesture, but would you spit on Bill and refuse his money. Would you publicly chastize him for being a cheap ass?

Reminds me of a Simpson's clip.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Assuming no one appreciates what the US gives

I think that's exactly the point people make.

(Frankly, I bet that other than sad petty wackos, our worldwide contributions are in general much appreciated)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Put it back in church God-boy.

I'm sure the charity appreciated the widow's sacrificing attitude. I'm also sure they didn't give back the wealthy's contributions. And the church is like government, no amount is enough and any method, including public shaming, is allowed as long as it generates more revenue.

If you are doing research, and Bill Gates made an insincere token contribution of $200,000, while I came over and took money from my daughter's college fund and gave you half of it (nowhere near $200K), I'm sure you'd appreciate my gesture, but would you spit on Bill and refuse his money. Would you publicly chastize him for being a cheap ass?

Reminds me of a Simpson's clip.

The "US" as such is just a collection of individuals. The "US" doesn't sacrifice anything per se. Only the individuals make the sacrifice. Hence comparing generosity on a per capita basis is most appropriate.

But Jesus went even further - in evaluating the generosity of givers, he went on a % of net worth basis.

Because the US has a far bigger population than Norway and hence gives more in aggregate, does not make the contribution of Americans more worthy of praise. Norwegians appear to be more generous than Americans, and certainly don't engage in so much self-congratulation about it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

Quote

I see your point. But isnt it like saying " Coca Cola rules! ABC soda only gave $1000 to "The Help Fund" and Coca Cola gave $5000".... Although Coke has 50 billion in sales and ABC has 5 million. Who was more generous with their efforts?

Who did more good?

And who's business is it who gave what? I'd rather the US tell most of the world to sod off and fix our problems. Too many want the US to fix EVERYONES problems. Some can claim we have a responsibility....But I think we should fix ourselves first.

But these socialist countries with their 46% tax rates demand the US gives MORE? Fuck them.

Quote

Your right - it was more total dollars, but the potential vs countries with way less wealth was way less - 7 times less. It does make some what of a statement concerning charitable actions.

Again I ask who the fucks business is it who gave what?

Quote

Agreed - but if one goes around and falsely proclaims a certain level of giving "US gives the most per capita" and is incorrect - I feel re-education is an appropriate response.

OK how about the US gives more period? It does.
No one ever wants to talk about that, no they look for the angle that helps the US look bad.

Quote

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

• Quote

[johnnyboydan 0]

Hey all I have to say to all of you people who want a job and health insurance, do your 20. I did 22 in the army and you know what I have free health insurance and now I make $120,000.00 yearly. So stop all of your bitching, if you don't want to earn it stop complaining you get what you put into life. Live it your way and take what you get.

johnnyboy

[rickjump1 0]

Quote

Hey all I have to say to all of you people who want a job and health insurance, do your 20. I did 22 in the army and you know what I have free health insurance and now I make $120,000.00 yearly. So stop all of your bitching, if you don't want to earn it stop complaining you get what you put into life. Live it your way and take what you get.

Good for you. You deserve it.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[billvon 2,991]

>OK how about the US gives more period?

Japan promised to give, and gave, more than the US to countries dealing with the aftermath of the tsunami.

That's not to say there's anything wrong with what the US did. Quite the contrary - it's great that we give money to people when they need it. But the idea that the US is the shining star of hope in a dark world is a bit of especially silly jingoism. We're just one of the stars, and often not even the brightest. Note that we don't _have_ to be the brightest. But we look silly when we always claim we are.

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

The surveillance act relaxed that standard, so no evidence of a crime is necessary. Instead, intelligence authorities can go to a secret court and obtain a search warrant simply by demonstrating that the primary purpose of their investigation is to gather foreign intelligence and the person in question is a proven agent of a foreign power.

Few people would likely find that egregious. But once the door is cracked for a due process exception, kicking it wide open becomes much simpler.

And that's exactly what the Patriot Act does. Its Section 218 expands on the surveillance act standard to allow the same secret courts to grant warrants if federal law enforcement agents can certify -- not prove by hard evidence -- that the person to be searched is a suspected terrorist or a suspected foreign agent. No longer does terrorism or foreign intelligence need to be the "primary" purpose of the investigation;

This may seem like a trivial change, but it isn't

Worse, it will allow law enforcement to piggy back ordinary criminal investigations on to the espionage or terror warrant.

The foreign surveillance court recognized the danger and initially refused to implement the expanded powers, but it was overruled by a never-before-convened three-judge panel.

Encouraging sneak-and-peek

Perhaps even worse are the Patriot Act's "sneak-and-peek" clauses.

These provisions, which the House overwhelmingly voted to repeal, extend the Justice Department's ability to conduct secret searches of the homes and businesses of individuals -- citizens and noncitizens alike -- not just in terrorism or espionage cases, but for all criminal investigations.

Certainly, the Justice Department has to meet the higher probable cause standard to conduct the searches. Still, authorities do not have to notify homeowners of the searches as long as the Justice Department can show that notification would in any way jeopardize the investigation.

Since notification would in almost every case undermine an investigation, this could effectively spell the end of the "knock and announce" requirement on police executing searches, a major abrogation of privacy rights.

Quote

Very interesting. Now I ask again

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

• Quote