you are the fucking problem

[SpeedRacer 1]

I'm not sure I see how contact with "white civilization" causes poverty. It seems to me that the problem is in urban areas, not in areas where people grow their own food.

What is it like in urban areas where there are virtually no white people? If there is still poverty, then it isn't contact with white people that causes the problem.

As for the factory causing poverty, I'm not quite sure I understand what these people were doing before the factory opened, such that they were well off before, and abandoned whatever that was in order to work in a factory & be worse off.

not arguing necessarily, I just don't completely understand the mechanism.

Speed Racer
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[wmw999 2,444]

I think the mechanism is that poverty is partly perception. If you compare yourself with people who have lots more stuff than you do, then that stuff becomes more important. If the people around you have roughly the same amount of stuff, and it's sufficient to allow one to pursue happiness instead of survival, then how you use it becomes more important.

I.e. "the grass is greener" really does apply, and it gets a whole lot greener when the other guy has different grass.

Haven't you ever heard people say things like "I never knew I was poor because we all had enough?"

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,991]

>I'm not sure I see how contact with "white civilization" causes
>poverty. It seems to me that the problem is in urban areas, not
>in areas where people grow their own food.

You answered your own question there.

If the indigenous people in an area were white, and had an agrarian society, and the rich people entering and starting businesses were black, then contact with black civilization would be the problem. In Africa, it's generally the other way around. The basic problem is rich people entering poor areas without much consideration for their effects on those poorer people.

>As for the factory causing poverty, I'm not quite sure I understand
> what these people were doing before the factory opened, such that
> they were well off before, and abandoned whatever that was in order
> to work in a factory & be worse off.

They did very little. That's how they lived their lives.

Take China. In a lot of places in rural China, people practice substinence agriculture. Everyone had about the same sort of life. I've never been there, but from a friend of mine who _was_ there, they are fairly happy. Nowadays it has become popular for young adults to go off to Dongguan or some such industrial center and work for two years, then 'retire' to the provinces with the money they have made. Now two classes are created - the rich and the poor. They have, in effect, created poverty.

We think we're doing pretty well now. If we met a civilization in which everyone lived forever, were infinitely (to us) rich and powerful, and could order us to do pretty much whatever they wanted, suddenly we'd feel like second class citizens. Even if we got some benefit from knowing them (say, we could buy better TV's from them) we would now be poor.

[SpeedRacer 1]

many of the people in these countries in Africa and Asia have already had urban areas for centuries. It wasn't necessarily foreigners who had to come in and introduce them.

--

Quote

Take China. In a lot of places in rural China, people practice substinence agriculture. Everyone had about the same sort of life. I've never been there, but from a friend of mine who _was_ there, they are fairly happy. Nowadays it has become popular for young adults to go off to Dongguan or some such industrial center and work for two years, then 'retire' to the provinces with the money they have made. Now two classes are created - the rich and the poor. They have, in effect, created poverty.

We think we're doing pretty well now. If we met a civilization in which everyone lived forever, were infinitely (to us) rich and powerful, and could order us to do pretty much whatever they wanted, suddenly we'd feel like second class citizens. Even if we got some benefit from knowing them (say, we could buy better TV's from them) we would now be poor.

well, that would imply that these people are not getting ACTUALLY poorer in terms of real standard of living. Only comparatively poorer.

Speed Racer
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[billvon 2,991]

>that would imply that these people are not getting ACTUALLY
>poorer in terms of real standard of living. Only comparatively poorer.

Of course. Like I said originally, people who have been happy all their lives aren't poor until someone tells them (or shows them) they are. I get annoyed when I hear people say "hey, those dirt-poor wretches would love a slave labor job in a Nike plant!" because they are completely missing the point. It's natural in a capitalist society to equate money with happiness, but in a lot of places in the world, that's not true until someone with money comes in and _makes_ it true.

[rehmwa 2]

I don't think that your position that wealth is only relative is a fair one. Do you really want to stop helping the poor? Do you really think that the rich pay their fair share in today's world.

Frankly, I think we should continue supporting charities that help people get a leg up.

now that's good analogy

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,991]

>Do you really want to stop helping the poor?

I'd rather help the people who really need the help. The people I knew in Sandire had zero money. But they didn't need our money; they needed a well, and the Peace Corps helped them dig one. The people in Thailand _did_ need money to rebuild whole villages.

>Do you really think that the rich pay their fair share in today's world.

"Fair share" is one of those feel-good terms used to justify almost anything. It's like "greedy corporations" or "consumer gouging" - the meaning is entirely in the eye of the beholder.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Another issue to consider is HOW to help.

Sometimes people with the best intentions will nevertheless do more harm than good.

So supposed you see some people in a country where there's hunger.

Simple answer, "Oh those poor people, we have a lotta food here in the USA, lets, send a few tons of grain over there to help feed the people."

So we do that. Then the local farmers can't sell their grain, because of all the free grain that got dumped into the market. The local farmers go out of business, & have to rely on more handouts. The agrarian-based economy tanks & the country becomes more helpless than ever.

Speed Racer
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[rehmwa 2]

Great answer to a question asked purely in mockery. touche

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,991]

>"Oh those poor people, we have a lotta food here in the USA, lets,
>send a few tons of grain over there to help feed the people."

Yep. I am reminded of an example decades ago, when we sent powdered cow milk to some starving kids somewhere. In many famine-plauged places in the world, milk isn't available for young kids due to lack of refrigeration, so they lose the ability to digest it. A significant number died from diarrhea.

[rickjump1 0]

Quote

>"Oh those poor people, we have a lotta food here in the USA, lets,
>send a few tons of grain over there to help feed the people."

Yep. I am reminded of an example decades ago, when we sent powdered cow milk to some starving kids somewhere. In many famine-plauged places in the world, milk isn't available for young kids due to lack of refrigeration, so they lose the ability to digest it. A significant number died from diarrhea.

I believe we have sent seeds to poor people to plant, but they ate them instead.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Hey has anyone else noticed that this thread has gone in the exact opposite direction as most threads??

Now, on the third page of posts, we're FINALLY talking specifics about the "fucking problem", but the thread STARTED OUT with an irrelevant whine about sports fans.

Speed Racer
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[rickjump1 0]

Quote

Hey has anyone else noticed that this thread has gone in the exact opposite direction as most threads??

Now, on the third page of posts, we're FINALLY talking specifics about the "fucking problem", but the thread STARTED OUT with an irrelevant whine about sports fans.

OK. We free the urban poor from disease, starvation, and infant mortality. What next? Help them start a union or give them a bus ticket back to the bush as agrarian farmers. What if they don't want to go? More kids on the way. Birth control?

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Quote

"try and tell me that when we couldn't get more than 12.5k ft last weekend for jumping because of the thick haze wasn't caused by all the chemical and coal plants and suvs"

You forgot jump planes

That fucking rocks...

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[78RATS 0]

It is a thought provoking piece. I don't think the author meant anything agaist "texas" or the "spurs" or "baseball" or "basketball". these are just examples of truly unimportant shit.

i don't think the author is attacking you, he is attacking all of us, including himself. he did actually do something about it, give him that much.

this writing was taped to every storefront on the guadalupe drag. when i read it i knew immediately I had to post it. Easily the best thing I have read in many years.

its stupid to have riots after your team wins. its stupid to lavish so much attention on unimportant shit. typical "go texas" cat will be sportin moms SUV with screens fallin as he drives right past the homeless prostitute. i dont think the author wants you to fix the problem, just that you show some awareness that not everyone has the good life.

please tell your mother i had a good time

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Quote

Easily the best thing I have read in many years.

That's really too bad. It was poorly written, and came across as nothing more than a weak attempt at a holier than thou, whining rant. The author did something about the 'problem' in the world? Great. To assume that no one else did anything is arrogant.

BTW, if I roll past you in my SUV with the drop down screens, you can kiss my ass if you have a problem with me spending the money that I earned the way I choose to. It cost less than your rig, maybe you'll want to think about that as you drive past that same homeless prostitute on your way to the DZ and feel superior because you don't spend your money on what you see as unneccesary extras...

And one last thing about the 'down with the rich' rant...the wealth of the nation tend to donate more than the middle class. They have more, they can donate more. Just because a millionaire has a tricked out ride doesn't mean he doesn't donate more money than you'll see in a year to charitable organizations. That's pretty lame to try to say he should do more; get off your ass and go make more money if enough 'good' isn't being done in the world. -I know it takes work to make money, and it's so much easier just to bitch to people that have already worked to get it....that's why socialism works so well.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[SpeedRacer 1]

re. first post...

Hey, I just got off the phone with Napa Valley, California.







....Their wine is missing.

Speed Racer
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[Rebecca 0]

But, but, but... I brought the cheese.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[Channman 2]

"It is a tale told by idiots full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

[Channman 2]

Hey, I think you forgot about them there Volcanos. Tell me they don't put out some serious crap. Haven't seen any topless earth babes protesting and demanding they clean up their act. Speaking of the Sky is falling and we are all going to die, ever see a whale take a dump. Hell the entire ocean is nothing but a big dumping ground for fish crap. Next Earth Day I'm going down to the Gulf and take me a nice long whizzz.

[Zennie 0]

Quote

Did someone piss in your cornflakes dude?

DAMN! You beat me to it!

GMTA!

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon