Gay Marriage?

[Ron 10]

Quote

So I would vote against any law that gives animals the same rights as people.

Allowing a woman to marry a donkey does NOT give the donkey the same rights as a human.

Gays already have rights as individuals....We are talking about rights as a couple.

Quote

And as long as they do not discriminate based on sex, religion or color, then I'm fine with that. They do currently discriminate. So the law should be changed.

How about age? The law currently says that a 20 year old can't marry a 13 year old...Is that NOT discrimination?

So you are OK with everything marrying anything as long as it is a certain age?

Why the age?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,998]

>Allowing a woman to marry a donkey does NOT give the donkey the
>same rights as a human.

If you recognize it legally it sure does. Donkeys can't inherit money, or take custody of children, or be co-signatories on a loan, or blah blah blah. Recognizing such a thing legally would be absurd. And again, I know you're not comparing gays to donkeys, so the issue isn't really relevant.

>How about age? The law currently says that a 20 year old can't marry
>a 13 year old...Is that NOT discrimination?

Please read what I write before replying. Two consenting ADULTS.

[christoofar 0]

Quote

Any woman or man caught commiting adultery
Anyone preaching or practicing a different religion <--
Anyone commiting blasphemy
Any man who does not obey the sabbath
Stubborn or rebelious children

Quote

I think we all fall short on some account or another....

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

• Quote

Share this post

---

Link to post

Share on other sites

[Ron 10]

Quote

If you recognize it legally it sure does. Donkeys can't inherit money, or take custody of children, or be co-signatories on a loan, or blah blah blah. Recognizing such a thing legally would be absurd. And again, I know you're not comparing gays to donkeys, so the issue isn't really relevant.

Why would you prevent someone from being happy and not let them marry a donkey?

Quote

Please read what I write before replying. Two consenting ADULTS

I did read it, you ignored the question.

Why would you prevent two people from being happy just because one is young? In some countries their in no age limit...why would you encourage discrimination and prevent people from being happy here in the US?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Quote

Quote

And there is a precedent of our government recognizing civil unions as marriage.

Yep and they have said it is between a MAN AND A WOMAN.

And our gov't was ok with slavery, discrimination against minorities, not allowing women to vote, etc. There have been plenty of changes made to our government once they became enlightened.

Quote

You lose

sigh. This is about who wins an argument? For me it isn't. For me it is about people that are in my life that are being denied the same rights I have. That is wrong and un-American. There are two gay couples that I know of that would get married as soon as it was legal - they are not activists and didn't run to the States that did it for that short period of time. They are very professional managers and VP's in Fortune 1000 companies. Their love isn't a soap box. However, they are all concerned about what happens down the line when they are sick or if they had a car accident on the way home tonight. This country was in an uproar over the rights a husband had with Schiavo - what fun do you think the media would have if a gay man was in court to try to get the rights to make decisions for his loved one that was in the hospital?

To turn this fight into something religious is insane. WHICH religion gets to make the decisions for our government? Which faith, which set of morals, which book, etc?

NO ONE in this thread is trying to force ANY religion into marrying a gay couple. NO ONE. We see this as something beyond religion. I am not stepping on anyone rights in regard to practicing their religion or holding true to their beliefs. The abortion laws alone should show that a decision in this country can be made to give rights to an individual while still allowing religions to do as the please. To limit a non-religious couple a freedom because it interferes with someone else's religious beliefs is just mind-boggling.....and to think that trying to give someone the same freedoms and benefits the rest of us already have is stepping on their rights is even more mind boggling.

btw - I have heard this topic from the other side. There were plenty of gay people in the Seminary with me and it came up in the theology classes we had. I've heard priests argue against it, and I sat there and understood their point of view. They choose to live their life that way and hold that belief. Cool with me. And they can still continue to do so once this country finally levels out and realizes it is making the same mistakes it has made repeatedly in the past.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[jumpergirl 0]

Thank you for putting into words what I could not.

• Quote

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Quote

Quote

If you recognize it legally it sure does. Donkeys can't inherit money, or take custody of children, or be co-signatories on a loan, or blah blah blah. Recognizing such a thing legally would be absurd. And again, I know you're not comparing gays to donkeys, so the issue isn't really relevant.

Why would you prevent someone from being happy and not let them marry a donkey?

While are at it can we make 2+2=5? I always hate writing out the number 4 since there are too many ways to do it, and not everyone agrees to which way the 4 should be drawn.

You know what comes next??? Human sacrifice,
dogs and cats, living together... mass hysteria!

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Quote

Thank you for putting into words what I could not.

no problem, often thought I was talking to myself in these forums.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[jumpergirl 0]

Not at all. I'm listening to everyone, just not agreeing with all. Apparently you and I are on the same wave.

• Quote

[Ron 10]

Quote

And our gov't was ok with slavery, discrimination against minorities, not allowing women to vote, etc. There have been plenty of changes made to our government once they became enlightened.

Oh so you are enlightend and I am not...I guess since the newer things are good that you support the Patriot act since it is shinny and new?

Just cause its new does not make it good or right.

Quote

I am not stepping on anyone rights in regard to practicing their religion or holding true to their beliefs.

Yes you are. If a religious man pays for his employees spouses health care and you make same sex marriages legal you are in fact forcing him.

But you claim that is OK since your stance is "Enlightened" So your brand of goose stepping and forcing people is OK.

Quote

To limit a non-religious couple a freedom because it interferes with someone else's religious beliefs is just mind-boggling.....and to think that trying to give someone the same freedoms and benefits the rest of us already have is stepping on their rights is even more mind boggling.

The rest of us don't have that right....I can't marry a man and neither can you.

How do you feel about people having several wives? I mean what possible problem could you have with that?

Quote

btw - I have heard this topic from the other side. There were plenty of gay people in the Seminary with me and it came up in the theology classes we had. I've heard priests argue against it, and I sat there and understood their point of view

I doubt that.

Quote

And they can still continue to do so once this country finally levels out and realizes it is making the same mistakes it has made repeatedly in the past.

Yes, some of the mistakes this country has made in the past is allowing the moral fiber of this country to go to shit.

Make no mistake, I think gays will be allowed to marry. I also think that it will be yet another step towards the inevitable immorality of our nation.

But its OK for you "enlightend folks" to force your beliefs down onto others

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,998]

>Why would you prevent someone from being happy and not let
>them marry a donkey?

I am starting to think that you are actually comparing gay marriage to bestiality, which makes me mad. So I'm going to stop posting on this thread. In summary:

-I think any civil right (the right to vote, the right to marry, the right to go to public schools) should be available to anyone regardless of their race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, or political affiliation.

-Gay marriage does not 'destroy' hetero marriage any more than interracial marriages destroyed same-race marriages.

-We will someday laugh at today's arguments against gay marriage in the same way we laugh about the arguments against interracial marriage in the 1950's. That will be a good day.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Quote

Quote

And our gov't was ok with slavery, discrimination against minorities, not allowing women to vote, etc. There have been plenty of changes made to our government once they became enlightened.

Oh so you are enlightened and I am not...I guess since the newer things are good that you support the Patriot act since it is shinny and new?

Just cause its new does not make it good or right.

And just because someone wants to make a change doesn't mean it is wrong.

Quote

Yes you are. If a religious man pays for his employees spouses health care and you make same sex marriages legal you are in fact forcing him.

If you run a company in this country you are forced to do a lot of things that you don't want to do. Skokie, IL has a large amount of Jewish run businesses (and it is the site of the controversial KKK march from 26 years ago) - I used to work at one of those companies. They are forced to deal on a daily basis that someone like me, a Christian, needed benefits that went against their religion and beliefs. They needed to build a second kitchen where I could eat my non-kosher meals and one where they could be Kosher. Due to the way laws are setup in this country they are not allowed to ask during an interview what my belief system is - it's called a protected class. They are not allowed to discriminate against what I think despite the conflict with their own life. That is one of the great things about this country - you are free to do as you want, practice what you want, etc. Your freedom cannot tread on anyone else. This is exactly what is happening right now. Once again, which religion is the right one to rule this country by? The moment you side with one you are then treading on the belief system of another.

Quote

I doubt that.

Well, go ahead and believe that. The fact is, I was siding with the priests at the time. My views have of course changed since then. But believe what you want, doubt what you want. I don't care anymore. Do you think I am trying to be insulting and taking small jabs? I'm not, and I'm sorry if you are reading it that way. Go back and re-read my replies as someone that is trying to have a conversation. This isn't a pissing contest for me. Interesting that you zero in on one word that I used to point out growth within our government and turn it into an insult. You and I are not on the same page here. This isn't yet another stupid argument on these forums for me - this is something real that I am seeing in my life right now. I see how it impacts people on a daily basis. I am not trying to 'one-up' and get the last word in on this thread. In fact, I am done here as I am wasting my time and energy on this.

Have a good holiday everyone - don't blow yourself up.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[lauras 0]

Quote

Make no mistake, I think gays will be allowed to marry. I also think that it will be yet another step towards the inevitable immorality of our nation.

Oh, have I got a big bone to pick with you, Hotpants.

Oren's already posted about having been raised by his gay mother and her partner of 25 years. Let's review: these two women own several very successful businesses in New York City & East Hampton. They own 3 homes. They've raised 5 children who are all comfortable and hold their own. They pay their taxes. They've saved for their retirement. They are very involved in charity. And here's something that should ice the cake - over the strenuous objections of their kids, they voted for your man Bush in the last election (that part is still a mystery to me, no matter how many times it's been explained).

Tell me how Ruth & Janet and the many gay domestic partners are leading to the decline of morality of the United States.

[Ron 10]

Quote

I am starting to think that you are actually comparing gay marriage to bestiality, which makes me mad. So I'm going to stop posting on this thread. In summary:

So to recap: If you can't answer a question with any real argument you will just take your ball and go home?

OK.

Quote

-I think any civil right (the right to vote, the right to marry, the right to go to public schools) should be available to anyone regardless of their race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, or political affiliation.

But you seem to be OK with AGE discrimination.

Quote

-Gay marriage does not 'destroy' hetero marriage any more than interracial marriages destroyed same-race marriages.

Never claimed it would. I DID say that it will be forcing others to accept your version of what is OK.

Quote

-We will someday laugh at today's arguments against gay marriage in the same way we laugh about the arguments against interracial marriage in the 1950's.

Hell as long as I am allowed to marry 4 or 5 hot chicks Im OK...Are you gonna support my right to have many wives if that vote comes along? If so then maybe YOU are OK with everything being equal (Except age).

Quote

That will be a good day

Thats your opinion....I think by then we will be consumed with some other issue.

Anyway, it was not a bad way to spend a day.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jumpergirl 0]

Quote

Quote

Make no mistake, I think gays will be allowed to marry. I also think that it will be yet another step towards the inevitable immorality of our nation.

Oh, have I got a big bone to pick with you, Hotpants.

Oren's already posted about having been raised by his gay mother and her partner of 25 years. Let's review: these two women own several very successful businesses in New York City & East Hampton. They own 3 homes. They've raised 5 children who are all comfortable and hold their own. They pay their taxes. They've saved for their retirement. They are very involved in charity. And here's something that should ice the cake - over the strenuous objections of their kids, they voted for your man Bush in the last election (that part is still a mystery to me, no matter how many times it's been explained).

Tell me how Ruth & Janet and the many gay domestic partners are leading to the decline of morality of the United States.

Yeah Laura!! I was just about to say something along those same lines. I don't have the background that Oren has, but I side with him and his family. I ask the same question: How are they (including all gay couples) leading to the decline of morality? When I read that I just shook my head and felt sad.

[Alias 0]

I wonder if the majority of the "Gay Marriage" crowd would be happy with all the bennies a marriage gets, but just not use the term marriage?

That term relates to religion in my eyes -

Call it something else, get the benefits and be done with symantics.

Here are some folks with this in mind

http://www.unmarried.org/aboutus.php

Carpe Diem

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Let's review: these two women own several very successful businesses in New York City & East Hampton. They own 3 homes. They've raised 5 children who are all comfortable and hold their own. They pay their taxes. They've saved for their retirement. They are very involved in charity. And here's something that should ice the cake - over the strenuous objections of their kids, they voted for your man Bush in the last election (that part is still a mystery to me, no matter how many times it's been explained).

That's all great & wonderful. They've done big things & gained lots of worldly possessions. They've also, however, raised children without a sense of what's right & wrong with regard to sexuality.

Quote

Tell me how Ruth & Janet and the many gay domestic partners are leading to the decline of morality of the United States.

By practicing homosexuality.

Owning businesses, homes, and even raising children who grow up & can hold their own has nothing to do with morality. Other good things they do like giving to charity may be very moral & admirable but that also doesn't have anything to do with or somehow account for their immoral homosexual lifestyle.

[alison 0]

Quote

Not true. Homosexuality is a sin just like any other.

Exactly. This is what many people seem not to understand. I normally don't post but feel like I have to chime in to help clear up some of the misconceptions on here.

I, as a Christian, struggle with sin every day. This particular sin (homosexual behavior) does not happen to be one of my struggles, but if it were, that would not mean I am not a Christian. However, the thing that sets Christians apart is that we recognize our sins and repent of them. I'm not talking about going through ritualistic motions, but actually feeling sorry for going against what God intends for us and honestly trying to change. Meaning, if I do something wrong, whether it be lying to someone, causing a person physical harm, or engaging in homosexual behavior, I should be genuinely sorry and do everything within my power not to let it happen again. If I slip up, however, this does not make me less of a Christian; it just means I'm human.

Given my beliefs on correcting sinful behavior (to get back on topic), how can I support gay marriage? It is officially legalizing actions that I believe to be wrong - same as legalizing theft or prostitution. Passing laws in favor of engaging in an act that God intends for us not to do is pretty much saying you can sin all you want and not feel bad about it; in fact, we are going to encourage it by giving you a legal entity under which to practice it. And that goes against what I strive for: a life free of sin as intended by Christ.

The fact that other people disagree with me or that this issue does not directly affect my life doesn't matter. People say, "why can't you just let them live their lives?", but the fact is that I cannot support something that I disagree with based on principle, even if it never directly influences me in any way.

Alison

[Ron 10]

Quote

Tell me how Ruth & Janet and the many gay domestic partners are leading to the decline of morality of the United States.

I think if you are gonna allow same sex marriages, then you must also allow other types of non-traditional marriages.

Morals: Rules or habits of conduct, especially of sexual conduct, with reference to standards of right and wrong.

It depends on what your definition of morals are I guess.

Most consider the anicient Romans to be morally defunct with their orgys, man-boy sex...ect.

Some people think sex is never OK, others think sex with a minor is OK. Some think sex with partners of the same sex is OK, some think only missionary position is OK, and some think sex before being married is wrong.

There is a sliding scale from no sex ever to anything goes.

I think the government approving a step towards the "anything goes" side is a clear decline of morality in the US as a whole.

Now depending on your morals, you can see that step as good (People have rights), or bad (moving towards immorality).

I think its both to be honest.

I have said several times that I think same sex unions should be allowed. (Most seem to ignore that).

But I also think it is a clear step towards immorality as a whole.

My major contention has always been that its not religious, so it should not be called a marriage. (They would get SO much more done if they don't fight that battle right now).

And most of my posts in this thread have been about religion and the hypocrits that claim to be gay and in line with Christs teachings (which is frankly impossible).

Being that I am neither religous nor gay...this has just been a way for me to kill time before I go coach in the tunnel all weekend.

It has also provided me the opportunity to study the Bible some. (Not that it really matters since I think its just an OK book, but I love knowing passages that take the piss out of people trying to witness to me....I for one learned Romans 7:19
which I'm still a little confused about...I mean we know we all sin, but if you continue to sin and you know it....How can that be OK?)

Anywhoo, its just my opinion and as some love to tell me they don't give a shit about my opinion.

And as I have said before I don't care much...except as a way to learn and discuss...Oh and waste a day.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jumpergirl 0]

Geez, you're close minded, aren't you?

Quote

Quote

Let's review: these two women own several very successful businesses in New York City & East Hampton. They own 3 homes. They've raised 5 children who are all comfortable and hold their own. They pay their taxes. They've saved for their retirement. They are very involved in charity. And here's something that should ice the cake - over the strenuous objections of their kids, they voted for your man Bush in the last election (that part is still a mystery to me, no matter how many times it's been explained).

That's all great & wonderful. They've done big things & gained lots of worldly possessions. They've also, however, raised children without a sense of what's right & wrong with regard to sexuality.

Does that mean it's ok to sleep around, spread STDs, and have lots of babies but not ok to be with one person that HAPPENS to be the same sex?

Quote

Quote

Tell me how Ruth & Janet and the many gay domestic partners are leading to the decline of morality of the United States.

By practicing homosexuality.

Owning businesses, homes, and even raising children who grow up & can hold their own has nothing to do with morality. Other good things they do like giving to charity may be very moral & admirable but that also doesn't have anything to do with or somehow account for their immoral homosexual lifestyle.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I wonder if the majority of the "Gay Marriage" crowd would be happy with all the bennies a marriage gets, but just not use the term marriage?

A significant number, likely a majority, would be perfectly happy with a civil union, and the rights and protections that married couples enjoy. This will be the compromise that will come.

[pajarito 0]

Quote

It has also provided me the opportunity to study the Bible some. (Not that it really matters since I think its just an OK book, but I love knowing passages that take the piss out of people trying to witness to me....I for one learned Romans 7:19
which I'm still a little confused about...I mean we know we all sin, but if you continue to sin and you know it....How can that be OK?)

It's not OK, but we still do it. We're human. The goal is to run the good race. You're going to stumble on the way. It's whether you get up and keep running that matters.

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Geez, you're close minded, aren't you?

Quote

Does that mean it's ok to sleep around, spread STDs, and have lots of babies but not ok to be with one person that HAPPENS to be the same sex?

No to the first.
Yes to the second.

Quote

Please explain to me what you define as moral and immoral. Being good people, raising good children, loving, and basically doing good, is moral in my book. Killing, stealing, lying... all immoral.

Are we still talking about sexuality?

[pajarito 0]

Nicely put.

• Quote

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

YOu keep quoting and talking about religion

Cause marriage is religion....The State should not bother getting involved. Also some on here mentioned gays are accepted by some religions...And I just love pointing out how they really can't be if the religion uses the Bible as a base. I'm in no way a good Christian...so I don't bother claiming to be one.

Listen to yourself - how can you take yourself seriously, Ron? You're trying to tell Baptists they're not Christians? It's moronic to try to measure the different sects on some orthodoxy count - they split off for a reason, a difference in reading/understanding of the Bible. You can shout up and down that they're misreading the Bible, and I'm sure they'll accord you the same attention they would a buzzing fly on the window. By your own admission you're totally unqualified to pass such judgements anyway.

And I know lots of Christians don't believe Mormons are, but who cares? They all believe in some form of Christ/God, and are Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, Lutherens, etc.

And none of this has anything to do with marriage in America, as we have this separation of church and state clause in the Constitution. You like saying that it's activist judges that would allow gays to marry, but I'd like you to tell me how a literal reading of the Constitution would ever come out on the other side.