Gay Marriage?

[Ron 10]

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No. Not because I say so. Because common sense says so. A person cannot fall in love with an animal

Really? Some people say that a man can't fall in love with a man.

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A person cannot have meaningful, 2-sided conversations with an animal.

Some relationships never have meaningful 2 sided conversations.

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A person can't gaze into an animal's eyes, feeling electricity between them, knowing that they've found their soulmate

Have you told this to clay?

Some people don't believe in soulmates, some people believe in reincarnation....Some think that you can come back as an animal.

What right do you have to claim they are wrong and deny them happiness?

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Or, maybe YOU can, and that's why this argument seems so pertinent to you.

Nah, I get rejected enough by women, I don't need to increase my chances of getting rejected by adding men and farm animals.

My point is that some one here claim several things based on emotion....Not fact. But the emotional argument does not stand up when other factors are put into play.

Simple fact. If you encourage the right to change the definition of marriage to fit YOUR favorite definition, at the protest of others...Then you have to be ready to accept someone elses shoved onto you inspite your objections.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelel01 1]

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Have you told this to clay?

No, but I will ASAP.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Not that easy. We already have one person on here saying he would cancel health insurance to his ee's since he would nto want to support a homosexual lifestyle. And by law he would not be allowed to only pay to provide healthcare to his hetero workforce.

'It costs too much' isn't a valid reason to discriminate, Ron. That's pretty much an admission that married couples are getting subsidized by everyone else. And let's be real - unless he's an employer in the Castro the odds are pretty low that he'll have any gay spouses to support. A significant number of Bay Area companies do extend these benefits and they're all still managing to stay in business. Better employee retention, I'm sure.

BP can choose to not give health care to the families of employees. If polygamy became legal, he could limit it to a single spouse, I suspect, and still be treating his employees equally.

But if he's going to give out benefits based on how proper he thinks your lifestyle is, look out. Already we have companies trying to offer health insurance that disciminates against recreational activities - most prominently biking, but you know where we'd fit.

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show me one reference that adresses homosexuality in the US Constituition.

Covered by all those bits about equality and freedom to do anything that doesn't hurt others. IE, our founding principles. The Constitution doesn't give us rights - they were already our's. You don't need to look for a right to skydive.

[Ron 10]

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'It costs too much' isn't a valid reason to discriminate, Ron

Nope, but what right do you have to tell him what he will do with his company or his money?

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That's pretty much an admission that married couples are getting subsidized by everyone else.

Have you seen me support ANYTHING for married couples?

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Covered by all those bits about equality and freedom to do anything that doesn't hurt others. IE, our founding principles. The Constitution doesn't give us rights - they were already our's. You don't need to look for a right to skydive.

Can't admit you can't find one?

The fact that the 2nd says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" has not stopped laws from being passed to prevent people from owning a gun.

So clearly some think that "rights" in the Constitution only fit when they want it.

And still no one has shown me where in the Constitution it says anything about gay marriage.

(And I'm still waiting on a Biblical verse from those gay christians)

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[narcimund 0]

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(And I'm still waiting on a Biblical verse from those gay christians)

I could be evil and find old references to posts where you claimed you had information then blatantly ignored my repeated requests to produce it. You enjoy being on the other side of that snotty game, don't you?

Looking way back to childhood, I think we used to say, "You can dish it out but you can't take it."

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Ron 10]

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I could be evil and find old references to posts where you claimed you had information then blatantly ignored my repeated requests to produce it. You enjoy being on the other side of that snotty game, don't you?

Looking way back to childhood, I think we used to say, "You can dish it out but you can't take it."

Can't provide proof so you start trying to slam?

Hows that victim complex working out for you?

Edit: I could dig up posts where you claimed you were just gonna ignore me....so much for that.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelel01 1]

Um, I believe someone posted a verse indicating that homosexuality is a sin like any other - it's equal to breaking any one of the Ten Commandments, which many of us heteros do on a regular basis.

And just FYI (so there's no misunderstanding), my sig line has nothing to do with Narcimund. I do feel he and his partner are being slighted.

[christelsabine 1]

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I could be evil and find old references to posts where you claimed you had information then blatantly ignored my repeated requests to produce it. You enjoy being on the other side of that snotty game, don't you?

Looking way back to childhood, I think we used to say, "You can dish it out but you can't take it."

Can't provide proof so you start trying to slam?

Hows that victim complex working out for you?

Hey now dear Ron, don't start throwing stones if there's lack of arguments... You know, sitting in a glass house and stuff

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Ron 10]

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Um, I believe someone posted a verse indicating that homosexuality is a sin like any other - it's equal to breaking any one of the Ten Commandments, which many of us heteros do on a regular basis.

Ah yes, but you have to repent and really try not to do it again.

Not try to make it legal.

BIG difference.

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And just FYI (so there's no misunderstanding), my sig line has nothing to do with Narcimund. I do feel he and his partner are being slighted.

OK, but I find it funny that after I have said I support some sort of Civil union I still have people think I am "evil" because I ask questions and put out other ways of thinking.

Hell I even CONGRADULATED one gay person on here when they were married.

Does not sound like a homophobe to me....But I guess its more fun to attack people than have people question your thought process. (not directed at you).

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelel01 1]

Well, perhaps we're wondering why someone who "doesn't have a problem with it" continues to argue semantics like "special rights" and "equal rights", when "equal rights" have ALWAYS had to be demanded by minorities, and they're not considered "special". Blacks are a minority, but I don't see it as a special right to require that they be offered the same healthcare package as whites.

I don't think you're a homophobe, but I am confused as to why you continually argue the "other side", based purely upon semantics and the Bible (which you don't believe in). Quite the devil's advocate, aren't we?

[Casurf1978 0]

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And still no one has shown me where in the Constitution it says anything about gay marriage.

So whats the point? Does every single right need to written down in the Constitution. Isn't that what the 9th is for.

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The fact that the 2nd says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" has not stopped laws from being passed to prevent people from owning a gun.

Some people should not own guns. I'm sure many here would agree that violent felons shouldn't legally have the right to own a gun. They commited a violent crime and IMHO forfeited their rights.

[wmw999 2,452]

The Constitution doesn't mention the rights (or lack thereof) of anyone to marry anyone else.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[narcimund 0]

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Can't provide proof so you start trying to slam?

I have no interest in providing proof. Like you, I don't give a damn about the bible. Unlike you, I don't hide behind it as justification for laws I claim not to believe are right but will fight to the death to convince others of.

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Edit: I could dig up posts where you claimed you were just gonna ignore me....so much for that.

And I could dig up posts where you claimed to eat worms, wear a tuxedo to the shower, and pour mayonnaise on your cat. Your point is?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[kelpdiver 2]

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Covered by all those bits about equality and freedom to do anything that doesn't hurt others. IE, our founding principles. The Constitution doesn't give us rights - they were already our's. You don't need to look for a right to skydive.

Can't admit you can't find one?

Why do I need to find one? I'm an American - I don't need to be given permission to enjoy my freedoms. Some people would try to make it otherwise, and they all ought to be shipped off to China where they can share their appreciation of denying rights to others. That applies to both gun controllers and folks like you.

BTW, Penn and Teller covered gun control last week (show named Bullshit!, on Showtime). I feared a MMM bullshit session, but was happy to see that they are in that small minority that doesn't pick and choose rights that they like. And did they put a smackdown down on those that would!

[bodypilot90 0]

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And still no one has shown me where in the Constitution it says anything about gay marriage.

(And I'm still waiting on a Biblical verse from those gay christians)

and they won't because there are none. no gay marriage no poodle marriage, no group marriage, period.

[kelel01 1]

As Wendy said . . . no MARRIAGE, period. Yet marriage exists. A crazy concept to be sure, that something exists and is not in our constitution.

[Nightingale 0]

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but do you think polygamy should be legal.

Personally, I don't think it should be illegal. However, I don't think relationships, marriage, or sex should be in any way sanctioned or controlled by the government at all, provided that all parties involved are consenting adults.

Honestly, I don't think it's the government's business (or really anyone else's for that matter) who people want to have sex with or marry. Activities that don't affect anyone but the actor(s) should not be criminalized by government on the basis of encoding a particular morality into law. I think the government ought to stay out of people's private lives and repeal laws that presume that the government knows better than the individual with respect to their personal lives.

Individuals should be free to make choices for themselves and to accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make.

[jenfly00 0]

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yes I have the very notion that Gays can marry has no legal basis before extremist tried to make marriage something that it's not.

Sociologically or anthropologically speaking, what is marriage?

Marriage (and all social institutions) exists for the purpose of meeting goals for the overall society. Primarily, the institution of marriage historically exists to promote the orderly transfer of property to the next generation. Secondarily, it exists to reduce the violence between the tribe's males as they compete for the available women by declaring a 'wife' as property of one man.

Which societal goal is being perverted, in your opinion?

jen

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[bodypilot90 0]

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The animal argument has to go. It needs to vacate this thread. It's no more relevant than wondering whether chimps in outer space could hear a tree fall in the forest. People are people - animals are not . . . no matter how much some PETA people want to throw around the phrase "Pets are people, too".

no it does not because just as gays have no right to marry, people have no right to marry pets. Animal feel, love and care for people. Animals have rights

[Ron 10]

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I have no interest in providing proof. Like you, I don't give a damn about the bible. Unlike you, I don't hide behind it as justification for laws I claim not to believe are right but will fight to the death to convince others of.

I used the Bible to show how some claim to be "Christian" just simply can't be.

I don't "Hide" behind anything.

Also you still forget I even congradulated you when you got married. You called me your enemy.

I am done with this. Have fun, but know if you force a vote that many will vote against it. You would be much better served to drop the militant attitude and the victim complex.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[sundevil777 102]

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This is in contrast to sibling/cousin relations that have serious consequences to the public, and to any offspring.

So it would be OK if one sibling/cousin was infertile?

Is it OK for 2 adults to marry: father - son or mother - daughter?

I believe most people would be repulsed to have a friend tell them their secret that they were in such a marriage, despite the fact that so many are proud of their support for same sex marriage. The arguments of "who is it hurting, etc." apply equally well to the father - son marriage, yet it is completely not socially acceptable.

So, until supporters of same sex marriage explicitly support polygamy and other unconventional marriages, then I think they should not pretend to be supporters of equal rights.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Frenchy68 0]

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This is in contrast to sibling/cousin relations that have serious consequences to the public, and to any offspring.

So it would be OK if one sibling/cousin was infertile?

Is it OK for 2 adults to marry: father - son or mother - daughter?

I believe most people would be repulsed to have a friend tell them their secret that they were in such a marriage, despite the fact that so many are proud of their support for same sex marriage. The arguments of "who is it hurting, etc." apply equally well to the father - son marriage, yet it is completely not socially acceptable.

So, until supporters of same sex marriage explicitly support polygamy and other unconventional marriages, then I think they should not pretend to be supporters of equal rights.

Poodles

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Nightingale 0]

Well, if you look at my post up above, I really don't care who's sleeping with who, so long as all parties are consenting adults. I'm not going to deny any adult the right to make their own choices regarding their private lives. What other people do with regards to their relationships doesn't affect me in the slightest, so I don't feel like I have a right to pass judgment on their choices, since their choices have nothing to do with me or my life.

[kelpdiver 2]

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So, until supporters of same sex marriage explicitly support polygamy and other unconventional marriages, then I think they should not pretend to be supporters of equal rights.

It's ridiculous to assert that a given group must champion every other potential groups' rights in order to obtain their own.

I'm not aware of any contingent of polygamists or others out there trying to get married, either. I'm quite sure I saw hundreds (thousands) of gays getting married in San Francisco, as well as seeing the GOP try to legislate rights away.

So I'll deal with the real issues, not the theoretical ones by people without legs to stand on.

[sundevil777 102]

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It's ridiculous to assert that a given group must champion every other potential groups' rights in order to obtain their own.

I'm not aware of any contingent of polygamists or others out there trying to get married, either. I'm quite sure I saw hundreds (thousands) of gays getting married in San Francisco, as well as seeing the GOP try to legislate rights away.

So I'll deal with the real issues, not the theoretical ones by people without legs to stand on.

Hardly a theoretical issue, polygamists have struggled in the past for acceptance, why would they and others not seek it now?

Why don't they 'have a leg to stand on'? The same arguments about nobody else is affected, etc. apply to polygamy and same sex incest among adults.

At least Nightingale admits that she doesn't care about polygamy or incest. I think she is in the minority.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am