rushmc 23 #51 July 13, 2005 Nice try........."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #52 July 13, 2005 Live in a selective cut and paste world if you choose. From the German site I gave you: QuoteFor the past eight years, the German economy has been the slowest-growing in the whole of the European Union, so in comparison with its peers it has lost ground (see chart 1). Recently, Germany has suffered the indignity of being formally reprimanded by the EU for letting its deficit get too big. True, in 1990 it was landed with the colossal financial burden—however welcome politically—of absorbing a bankrupt country, the former communist-run German Democratic Republic. True, Germany's is an export-driven economy gasping for breath during a world economic slump. But it is also stifled by a hugely restrictive and intrusive web of regulations, and weighed down by one of the most expensive, inflexible and protected labour forces in the world. QuoteMany of Germany's greatest firms and institutions are in trouble. All of its four biggest banks—Deutsche Bank, HypoVereinsbank, Commerzbank and Dresdner Bank—require drastic and urgent restructuring. When in 1999 Germany committed itself to surrendering its beloved D-mark, the symbol of post-war stability, in favour of a new European currency that now embraces 12 out of the EU's 15 members, there was much talk about Frankfurt ousting the City of London as Europe's financial hub (Britain having stayed out of the project). But in the past few years the DAX index of Germany's top companies has slumped even further than the stockmarkets in New York, London and Paris, and Frankfurt's much-vaunted Neuer Markt for high-tech shares, having lost 90% of its value in the past two years, is closing as a separate market early next year. In the past couple of years, Germany has been shocked by formerly rock-solid companies going bust. QuoteEven standards of public morality and civic virtue seem to be declining. A few years ago a party slush-fund scandal tarnished the name of Helmut Kohl after 25 years at the head of the Christian Democrat party, 16 of them as Germany's chancellor. In the past couple of years a rash of scandals involving all the main parties has erupted. And note that Transparency International, a Berlin-based body that rates countries according to the cleanliness of their public ethics, puts Germany in 18th place in its latest league table, one rung below Chile. And here's the rest of the section you quoted from, which by the way was just an interview with one person. QuoteBut the price could well rise. Some demographic projections suggest that, without net immigration on a grand scale, Germany's population could shrink from 82m today to about 60m, the same as France's and Britain's, within 30 years. That would make public pensions and health care at their present level unaffordable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #53 July 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteI find it interesting that a bunch of the same folks who are saying the Bush administration is just wiggling the numbers to their advantage are also taking the Clinton numbers as gospel. Honestly, I think that pretty much every administration (Clinton, Bush, whoever) mashes those numbers as hard as they can to put themselves in the best light. What I think is funny is how when the numbers show a deficit when a Republican is in office, they believe them but when they show a surplus, then the numbers have been manipulated. Got the numbers from the CBO.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #54 July 13, 2005 Your graph is very telling. I'd like to see it normalized to GNP anyway as a better comparison. But with the big swings on the chart in recent, it's likely the normalization will still show what you hope it does. So why not just do that and shut down that particular argument? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #55 July 13, 2005 QuoteWell, Kallend is probably the most intelligent person on the board, so your point??????? That is an appeal to authority, and it is not a legitimate argument. Intelligent people can be wrong too.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #56 July 13, 2005 QuoteYour graph is very telling. I'd like to see it normalized to GNP anyway as a better comparison. But with the big swings on the chart in recent, it's likely the normalization will still show what you hope it does. So why not just do that and shut down that particular argument? As you wish...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #57 July 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteWell, Kallend is probably the most intelligent person on the board, so your point??????? That is an appeal to authority, and it is not a legitimate argument. Intelligent people can be wrong too. Learned does not equal intelligent. But I agree with you about the appeal to authority for a bail out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #58 July 13, 2005 QuoteThe lefties also like to forget that Clinton wanted to nationalize healthcare which would have blown a hole in the US economy that we may never have recovered from. They also like to conveniently forget that Clinton didn't want a balanced budget and the only reason we had surpluses was that he was dragged kicking and screaming by a Republican controlled Congress and forced to balance the budget. I guess ignorance really is bliss. Funny, I thought it was those tax hikes that cost him dearly in the '94 election, as the GOP took over the two chambers of Congress. Politically expensive, but seemed to lead to both a booming economy and a budget surplus. It's easy to run a deficit to improve the economy...in the short term. There's no getting around the fact that with Reagan, Bush, and Bush, you have increasing deficits. It went the other way during the Clinton Adminstration. Giving credit to the GOP for his surplus seems a bit dishonest. At one point this surplus was projected to be close to the sum of the national debt. Wouldn't it have been great to just cut the deficit in half, rather than add a few trillion in Bush's terms? I think that paper surplus was grossly exaggerrated, but if we could have just held a balanced budget for a stretch, it would have been a nice step forward, esp as Medicare and SS will stop subsiziding the deficit in about a decade. As for health care...it's going to need to be addressed in the not too distant future. When you read that GM spends $1700 in health care PER CAR PRODUCED, you have to see the writing on the wall. Any large established company that has made commitments to its retireree base wrt health costs is going to go under with the status quo. Like SS, there's no easy answer. I give Clinton credit for trying, just as I give our current President credit for trying with SS. It's much easier to be on the other side saying it won't work, and to offer nothing else in return. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #59 July 13, 2005 That article reads like the weekly conversation I have with my wife when she comes home and tells me she saved us $100 after spending $1,500 on supposed good deals........ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #60 July 13, 2005 QuoteThat article reads like the weekly conversation I have with my wife when she comes home and tells me she saved us $100 after spending $1,500 on supposed good deals........ And you aren't happy for her? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #61 July 13, 2005 Quote Yup and someone forgot there was a recession, Quote When my income went down I had to reduce spending. It's entirely reasonable to expect the same from our government. Quote a terror attack, and a war which followed the attack. The $200B we've spent on the war effort since 9/11/2001 is a drop in the bucket. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #62 July 13, 2005 Quote When my income went down I had to reduce spending. It's entirely reasonable to expect the same from our government. That's not practical to do on a year by year basis, given how spending is planned. And a recession is a time when it's ok to overspend. But there has to be a savings period when things are good. Or at least something restricting spending to a trend line of income. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AlexCrowley 0 #63 July 13, 2005 Quote Like SS, there's no easy answer. Ok please dont bring this up, it's a weird argument. SS was designed to withstand the current situation. Clinton said 'SS is in crisis!' and Bush is just using that to his advantage. Both sides would appear to be incorrect when looking at unbiased information (at least according the articles I have read, I do not have any background in economics, so there's a posibility I've been duped into reading information devoid of both spin and real content - as usual hoping someone else may have read a similar article over the last 18 months). SS is and was doing just fine once you strip away all the BS spin from BOTH sides. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #64 July 14, 2005 Quote Ok please dont bring this up, it's a weird argument. SS was designed to withstand the current situation. well, fuck, if you didn't want it brought up, why did you go on for paragraphs claiming all is well? It's not. Not for the system, and not for our general budget which relies on the current surplus to subsidize deficit spending. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AlexCrowley 0 #65 July 14, 2005 Quote well, fuck, if you didn't want it brought up, why did you go on for paragraphs claiming all is well? . If you thought that was me going on for paragraphs you've obviously not seen my other posts. If I had the time and patience about the subject I'd dig up the articles that discussed it, but from my recollection there would be a period of a few years of underfunding and then it would balance itself out. Of course, it's going to be a tough article to find when most of the partisan sites are filled with 'the sky is falling' predictions. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EBSB52 0 #66 July 14, 2005 QuoteQuoteWell, Kallend is probably the most intelligent person on the board, so your point??????? That is an appeal to authority, and it is not a legitimate argument. Intelligent people can be wrong too. 1. It wasn't even meant as an appeal to authority - I don't look at you as authority in the least. - I had professors in college that I got to know outside of univ and I called them academic elitists for saying they are doctors so they must be right, so I don't subscribe to some academic hierarchy. 2. I understand that the reverse would be an Ad Hominem. To say some person is a high school drop-out and is therefore stupid and incorrect on an issue is an Ad Hominem. I realize you attack the argument, not the arguer. W/o looking up why I wrote that, I recall it was as a reply to a sarcastic remark made by someone trying to pretend to defer the floor to you due to your education. Do I know things that you don't? I guarantee it. Do others on the board know things you don't? I guarantee it. But as an average, an IQ test (as much as I think they're bunk), or an appearance on jeopardy for example, I think you would be identified as the most intelligent person on the board. Now finish your cup of humility and move on..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EBSB52 0 #67 July 14, 2005 QuoteLive in a selective cut and paste world if you choose. From the German site I gave you: QuoteFor the past eight years, the German economy has been the slowest-growing in the whole of the European Union, so in comparison with its peers it has lost ground (see chart 1). Recently, Germany has suffered the indignity of being formally reprimanded by the EU for letting its deficit get too big. True, in 1990 it was landed with the colossal financial burden—however welcome politically—of absorbing a bankrupt country, the former communist-run German Democratic Republic. True, Germany's is an export-driven economy gasping for breath during a world economic slump. But it is also stifled by a hugely restrictive and intrusive web of regulations, and weighed down by one of the most expensive, inflexible and protected labour forces in the world. QuoteMany of Germany's greatest firms and institutions are in trouble. All of its four biggest banks—Deutsche Bank, HypoVereinsbank, Commerzbank and Dresdner Bank—require drastic and urgent restructuring. When in 1999 Germany committed itself to surrendering its beloved D-mark, the symbol of post-war stability, in favour of a new European currency that now embraces 12 out of the EU's 15 members, there was much talk about Frankfurt ousting the City of London as Europe's financial hub (Britain having stayed out of the project). But in the past few years the DAX index of Germany's top companies has slumped even further than the stockmarkets in New York, London and Paris, and Frankfurt's much-vaunted Neuer Markt for high-tech shares, having lost 90% of its value in the past two years, is closing as a separate market early next year. In the past couple of years, Germany has been shocked by formerly rock-solid companies going bust. QuoteEven standards of public morality and civic virtue seem to be declining. A few years ago a party slush-fund scandal tarnished the name of Helmut Kohl after 25 years at the head of the Christian Democrat party, 16 of them as Germany's chancellor. In the past couple of years a rash of scandals involving all the main parties has erupted. And note that Transparency International, a Berlin-based body that rates countries according to the cleanliness of their public ethics, puts Germany in 18th place in its latest league table, one rung below Chile. And here's the rest of the section you quoted from, which by the way was just an interview with one person. QuoteBut the price could well rise. Some demographic projections suggest that, without net immigration on a grand scale, Germany's population could shrink from 82m today to about 60m, the same as France's and Britain's, within 30 years. That would make public pensions and health care at their present level unaffordable. I see you deleted my cut-n-paste from your reply and even failed to acknowledge it - no surprise there. Ok, so this site describes Germany as a struggling nation; I think we could easily find the same type of arguments/web sites about the US if I cared to look. Your cut-n-pastes support my point. What you argue is that the Socialist Germans are in ruins, the article hardly states that, but says they're in trouble. But it also says in the parts I pasted that even in the midst of all this fiscal chaos, they have amongst the best social programs in the world. So that is my argument; Germany, in fiscal trouble, takes care of its poor / the US when in fiscal trouble turns its back on the poor. Hell, we turn our backs on the poor and middle-class when we prosper. So your argument supports my argument. Are you going to argue that the US is in good fiscal shape? Shall we talk the how many trillion $ deficit? Many Germans, on the centre-right as well as the centre-left, think their laisser-faire critics are exaggerating. Carpers have been saying much the same thing for decades, yet Germany remains a rich and comfortable country that treats its old, its sick and its unemployed far more generously than does, say, America or Britain. “Germans live very well. We have a fantastic welfare system,” said Alfred Tacke, a confidant of Mr Schröder in the economics ministry. “Our infrastructure is fantastic. Our workers have six or even eight weeks' holiday a year.” The Americans, he says, work about 25% more hours in a year. So what, he seems to be implying, if Germany drops a few places in those league tables of growth and productivity Again, your article's words, not mine. Nice support for my argument, thx. Germany is one of the places on my list. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #68 July 14, 2005 QuoteMany Germans, on the centre-right as well as the centre-left, think their laisser-faire critics are exaggerating. Carpers have been saying much the same thing for decades, yet Germany remains a rich and comfortable country that treats its old, its sick and its unemployed far more generously than does, say, America or Britain. “Germans live very well. We have a fantastic welfare system,” said Alfred Tacke, a confidant of Mr Schröder in the economics ministry. “Our infrastructure is fantastic. Our workers have six or even eight weeks' holiday a year.” The Americans, he says, work about 25% more hours in a year. So what, he seems to be implying, if Germany drops a few places in those league tables of growth and productivity Again, your article's words, not mine. Nice support for my argument, thx. Germany is one of the places on my list. Hope you like the high taxes.... as I recall, when I was living in Germany in the 90's, the tax rate was around 40-45% for the average Johann... and their state medical insurance, again as I recall, was not the "free ride" your posts tend to paint it as... there are co-pays and daily pays and doctor fees just like medical insurance in the US...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #69 July 14, 2005 QuoteI see you deleted my cut-n-paste from your reply and even failed to acknowledge it - no surprise there. No I didn't. I acknowledged it here: And here's the rest of the section you quoted from, which by the way was just an interview with one person. QuoteOk, so this site describes Germany as a struggling nation; I think we could easily find the same type of arguments/web sites about the US if I cared to look. It isn't about what one site says. It is well known and accepted that Germany is in horrible shape financially and the reason they are is because they are too weighted down with social programs. Do some research. QuoteYour cut-n-pastes support my point. What you argue is that the Socialist Germans are in ruins, the article hardly states that, but says they're in trouble. But it also says in the parts I pasted that even in the midst of all this fiscal chaos, they have amongst the best social programs in the world. So that is my argument; Germany, in fiscal trouble, takes care of its poor / the US when in fiscal trouble turns its back on the poor. Hell, we turn our backs on the poor and middle-class when we prosper. Again, do some research unless all you want is an argument. IT IS WELL ACCEPTED AND WELL KNOWN THAT GERMANY IS IN VERY POOR FINANCIAL CONDITION. One little glimmer of hope in one paragraph on one web page made by one person in Germany doesn't make your point. We do not turn our back on the poor or middle class. We have spent over $6 trillion on social programs over the past 40 years. The only thing we found that worked was to tell the poor they needed to get a job because the free ride was over. QuoteSo your argument supports my argument. Are you going to argue that the US is in good fiscal shape? Shall we talk the how many trillion $ deficit? Yes I will argue that compared to most of the world the US economy is in good shape. Could it be better? Of course. But that doesn't mean we are in trouble. QuoteMany Germans, on the centre-right as well as the centre-left, think their laisser-faire critics are exaggerating. Carpers have been saying much the same thing for decades, yet Germany remains a rich and comfortable country that treats its old, its sick and its unemployed far more generously than does, say, America or Britain. “Germans live very well. We have a fantastic welfare system,” said Alfred Tacke, a confidant of Mr Schröder in the economics ministry. “Our infrastructure is fantastic. Our workers have six or even eight weeks' holiday a year.” The Americans, he says, work about 25% more hours in a year. So what, he seems to be implying, if Germany drops a few places in those league tables of growth and productivity Consider the source. QuoteAgain, your article's words, not mine. Nice support for my argument, thx. Germany is one of the places on my list. All I can do is laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #70 July 14, 2005 QuoteQuoteMany Germans, on the centre-right as well as the centre-left, think their laisser-faire critics are exaggerating. Carpers have been saying much the same thing for decades, yet Germany remains a rich and comfortable country that treats its old, its sick and its unemployed far more generously than does, say, America or Britain. “Germans live very well. We have a fantastic welfare system,” said Alfred Tacke, a confidant of Mr Schröder in the economics ministry. “Our infrastructure is fantastic. Our workers have six or even eight weeks' holiday a year.” The Americans, he says, work about 25% more hours in a year. So what, he seems to be implying, if Germany drops a few places in those league tables of growth and productivity Again, your article's words, not mine. Nice support for my argument, thx. Germany is one of the places on my list. Hope you like the high taxes.... as I recall, when I was living in Germany in the 90's, the tax rate was around 40-45% for the average Johann... and their state medical insurance, again as I recall, was not the "free ride" your posts tend to paint it as... there are co-pays and daily pays and doctor fees just like medical insurance in the US... We all pay in the end, one way or another. If I add my federal, state, local, sales, SS, Medicare and property taxes, miscellaneous things like phone taxes and utility taxes, to my health insurance premiums it comes out around 45%, maybe more.. Having lived in places where healthcare is private, and where it is publically funded, I preferred the latter, mostly because it was less hassle. I hate the rigmarole I have to go through with my current (private) plan with its list of approved providers, copays, forms for reimbursements, etc.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mirage63 0 #71 July 14, 2005 Quote ....... Germany is one of the places on my list. Sooo (and I know someone somewhere has asked this) WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #72 July 14, 2005 QuoteWe all pay in the end, one way or another. If I add my federal, state, local, sales, SS, Medicare and property taxes, miscellaneous things like phone taxes and utility taxes, to my health insurance premiums it comes out around 45%, maybe more.. Having lived in places where healthcare is private, and where it is publically funded, I preferred the latter, mostly because it was less hassle. I hate the rigmarole I have to go through with my current (private) plan with its list of approved providers, copays, forms for reimbursements, etc. As I said, I'm working off of memory.... but the rate I mentioned was income/medical tax... I know that they have all KINDS of taxes on other stuff... luckily I was exempt as a contractor. I do recall my neighbor griping about medical paperwork... I guess that doesn't change regardless of where you are, hm?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #73 July 14, 2005 QuoteHaving lived in places where healthcare is private, and where it is publically funded, I preferred the latter, mostly because it was less hassle. I hate the rigmarole I have to go through with my current (private) plan with its list of approved providers, copays, forms for reimbursements, etc. That is the best argument ever for public HC. If I really believed that, John, I'd be standing right beside you supporting public health care. But I don't believe it. Just like retirement, the government will give itself a special plan and the rest of us will still have to go through a bunch of crap, only with lines and poorly qualified medical providers. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #74 July 14, 2005 QuoteQuoteHaving lived in places where healthcare is private, and where it is publically funded, I preferred the latter, mostly because it was less hassle. I hate the rigmarole I have to go through with my current (private) plan with its list of approved providers, copays, forms for reimbursements, etc. That is the best argument ever for public HC. If I really believed that, John, I'd be standing right beside you supporting public health care. But I don't believe it. Just like retirement, the government will give itself a special plan and the rest of us will still have to go through a bunch of crap, only with lines and poorly qualified medical providers. Just recounting my own experience.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EricTheRed 0 #75 July 14, 2005 QuoteQuoteYour graph is very telling. I'd like to see it normalized to GNP anyway as a better comparison. But with the big swings on the chart in recent, it's likely the normalization will still show what you hope it does. So why not just do that and shut down that particular argument? As you wish... How about a graph of DEBT vs GNP. IMO it's the cumulative debt we carry that is the real problem. There will be a point where service on the debt will become unsustainable without massive new revenue or very high inflation. The US economy at present resembles a huge pyramid scheme that requires ever increasing growth to sustain itself. The problem with projecting growth forever is that it is simply not sustainable. Nothing grows forever unless there are unlimited resources. We are already beginning to see the limits of our resources, even if some choose to ignore that inconvenient fact.illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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kelpdiver 2 #62 July 13, 2005 Quote When my income went down I had to reduce spending. It's entirely reasonable to expect the same from our government. That's not practical to do on a year by year basis, given how spending is planned. And a recession is a time when it's ok to overspend. But there has to be a savings period when things are good. Or at least something restricting spending to a trend line of income. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #63 July 13, 2005 Quote Like SS, there's no easy answer. Ok please dont bring this up, it's a weird argument. SS was designed to withstand the current situation. Clinton said 'SS is in crisis!' and Bush is just using that to his advantage. Both sides would appear to be incorrect when looking at unbiased information (at least according the articles I have read, I do not have any background in economics, so there's a posibility I've been duped into reading information devoid of both spin and real content - as usual hoping someone else may have read a similar article over the last 18 months). SS is and was doing just fine once you strip away all the BS spin from BOTH sides. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #64 July 14, 2005 Quote Ok please dont bring this up, it's a weird argument. SS was designed to withstand the current situation. well, fuck, if you didn't want it brought up, why did you go on for paragraphs claiming all is well? It's not. Not for the system, and not for our general budget which relies on the current surplus to subsidize deficit spending. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #65 July 14, 2005 Quote well, fuck, if you didn't want it brought up, why did you go on for paragraphs claiming all is well? . If you thought that was me going on for paragraphs you've obviously not seen my other posts. If I had the time and patience about the subject I'd dig up the articles that discussed it, but from my recollection there would be a period of a few years of underfunding and then it would balance itself out. Of course, it's going to be a tough article to find when most of the partisan sites are filled with 'the sky is falling' predictions. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #66 July 14, 2005 QuoteQuoteWell, Kallend is probably the most intelligent person on the board, so your point??????? That is an appeal to authority, and it is not a legitimate argument. Intelligent people can be wrong too. 1. It wasn't even meant as an appeal to authority - I don't look at you as authority in the least. - I had professors in college that I got to know outside of univ and I called them academic elitists for saying they are doctors so they must be right, so I don't subscribe to some academic hierarchy. 2. I understand that the reverse would be an Ad Hominem. To say some person is a high school drop-out and is therefore stupid and incorrect on an issue is an Ad Hominem. I realize you attack the argument, not the arguer. W/o looking up why I wrote that, I recall it was as a reply to a sarcastic remark made by someone trying to pretend to defer the floor to you due to your education. Do I know things that you don't? I guarantee it. Do others on the board know things you don't? I guarantee it. But as an average, an IQ test (as much as I think they're bunk), or an appearance on jeopardy for example, I think you would be identified as the most intelligent person on the board. Now finish your cup of humility and move on..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #67 July 14, 2005 QuoteLive in a selective cut and paste world if you choose. From the German site I gave you: QuoteFor the past eight years, the German economy has been the slowest-growing in the whole of the European Union, so in comparison with its peers it has lost ground (see chart 1). Recently, Germany has suffered the indignity of being formally reprimanded by the EU for letting its deficit get too big. True, in 1990 it was landed with the colossal financial burden—however welcome politically—of absorbing a bankrupt country, the former communist-run German Democratic Republic. True, Germany's is an export-driven economy gasping for breath during a world economic slump. But it is also stifled by a hugely restrictive and intrusive web of regulations, and weighed down by one of the most expensive, inflexible and protected labour forces in the world. QuoteMany of Germany's greatest firms and institutions are in trouble. All of its four biggest banks—Deutsche Bank, HypoVereinsbank, Commerzbank and Dresdner Bank—require drastic and urgent restructuring. When in 1999 Germany committed itself to surrendering its beloved D-mark, the symbol of post-war stability, in favour of a new European currency that now embraces 12 out of the EU's 15 members, there was much talk about Frankfurt ousting the City of London as Europe's financial hub (Britain having stayed out of the project). But in the past few years the DAX index of Germany's top companies has slumped even further than the stockmarkets in New York, London and Paris, and Frankfurt's much-vaunted Neuer Markt for high-tech shares, having lost 90% of its value in the past two years, is closing as a separate market early next year. In the past couple of years, Germany has been shocked by formerly rock-solid companies going bust. QuoteEven standards of public morality and civic virtue seem to be declining. A few years ago a party slush-fund scandal tarnished the name of Helmut Kohl after 25 years at the head of the Christian Democrat party, 16 of them as Germany's chancellor. In the past couple of years a rash of scandals involving all the main parties has erupted. And note that Transparency International, a Berlin-based body that rates countries according to the cleanliness of their public ethics, puts Germany in 18th place in its latest league table, one rung below Chile. And here's the rest of the section you quoted from, which by the way was just an interview with one person. QuoteBut the price could well rise. Some demographic projections suggest that, without net immigration on a grand scale, Germany's population could shrink from 82m today to about 60m, the same as France's and Britain's, within 30 years. That would make public pensions and health care at their present level unaffordable. I see you deleted my cut-n-paste from your reply and even failed to acknowledge it - no surprise there. Ok, so this site describes Germany as a struggling nation; I think we could easily find the same type of arguments/web sites about the US if I cared to look. Your cut-n-pastes support my point. What you argue is that the Socialist Germans are in ruins, the article hardly states that, but says they're in trouble. But it also says in the parts I pasted that even in the midst of all this fiscal chaos, they have amongst the best social programs in the world. So that is my argument; Germany, in fiscal trouble, takes care of its poor / the US when in fiscal trouble turns its back on the poor. Hell, we turn our backs on the poor and middle-class when we prosper. So your argument supports my argument. Are you going to argue that the US is in good fiscal shape? Shall we talk the how many trillion $ deficit? Many Germans, on the centre-right as well as the centre-left, think their laisser-faire critics are exaggerating. Carpers have been saying much the same thing for decades, yet Germany remains a rich and comfortable country that treats its old, its sick and its unemployed far more generously than does, say, America or Britain. “Germans live very well. We have a fantastic welfare system,” said Alfred Tacke, a confidant of Mr Schröder in the economics ministry. “Our infrastructure is fantastic. Our workers have six or even eight weeks' holiday a year.” The Americans, he says, work about 25% more hours in a year. So what, he seems to be implying, if Germany drops a few places in those league tables of growth and productivity Again, your article's words, not mine. Nice support for my argument, thx. Germany is one of the places on my list. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #68 July 14, 2005 QuoteMany Germans, on the centre-right as well as the centre-left, think their laisser-faire critics are exaggerating. Carpers have been saying much the same thing for decades, yet Germany remains a rich and comfortable country that treats its old, its sick and its unemployed far more generously than does, say, America or Britain. “Germans live very well. We have a fantastic welfare system,” said Alfred Tacke, a confidant of Mr Schröder in the economics ministry. “Our infrastructure is fantastic. Our workers have six or even eight weeks' holiday a year.” The Americans, he says, work about 25% more hours in a year. So what, he seems to be implying, if Germany drops a few places in those league tables of growth and productivity Again, your article's words, not mine. Nice support for my argument, thx. Germany is one of the places on my list. Hope you like the high taxes.... as I recall, when I was living in Germany in the 90's, the tax rate was around 40-45% for the average Johann... and their state medical insurance, again as I recall, was not the "free ride" your posts tend to paint it as... there are co-pays and daily pays and doctor fees just like medical insurance in the US...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #69 July 14, 2005 QuoteI see you deleted my cut-n-paste from your reply and even failed to acknowledge it - no surprise there. No I didn't. I acknowledged it here: And here's the rest of the section you quoted from, which by the way was just an interview with one person. QuoteOk, so this site describes Germany as a struggling nation; I think we could easily find the same type of arguments/web sites about the US if I cared to look. It isn't about what one site says. It is well known and accepted that Germany is in horrible shape financially and the reason they are is because they are too weighted down with social programs. Do some research. QuoteYour cut-n-pastes support my point. What you argue is that the Socialist Germans are in ruins, the article hardly states that, but says they're in trouble. But it also says in the parts I pasted that even in the midst of all this fiscal chaos, they have amongst the best social programs in the world. So that is my argument; Germany, in fiscal trouble, takes care of its poor / the US when in fiscal trouble turns its back on the poor. Hell, we turn our backs on the poor and middle-class when we prosper. Again, do some research unless all you want is an argument. IT IS WELL ACCEPTED AND WELL KNOWN THAT GERMANY IS IN VERY POOR FINANCIAL CONDITION. One little glimmer of hope in one paragraph on one web page made by one person in Germany doesn't make your point. We do not turn our back on the poor or middle class. We have spent over $6 trillion on social programs over the past 40 years. The only thing we found that worked was to tell the poor they needed to get a job because the free ride was over. QuoteSo your argument supports my argument. Are you going to argue that the US is in good fiscal shape? Shall we talk the how many trillion $ deficit? Yes I will argue that compared to most of the world the US economy is in good shape. Could it be better? Of course. But that doesn't mean we are in trouble. QuoteMany Germans, on the centre-right as well as the centre-left, think their laisser-faire critics are exaggerating. Carpers have been saying much the same thing for decades, yet Germany remains a rich and comfortable country that treats its old, its sick and its unemployed far more generously than does, say, America or Britain. “Germans live very well. We have a fantastic welfare system,” said Alfred Tacke, a confidant of Mr Schröder in the economics ministry. “Our infrastructure is fantastic. Our workers have six or even eight weeks' holiday a year.” The Americans, he says, work about 25% more hours in a year. So what, he seems to be implying, if Germany drops a few places in those league tables of growth and productivity Consider the source. QuoteAgain, your article's words, not mine. Nice support for my argument, thx. Germany is one of the places on my list. All I can do is laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #70 July 14, 2005 QuoteQuoteMany Germans, on the centre-right as well as the centre-left, think their laisser-faire critics are exaggerating. Carpers have been saying much the same thing for decades, yet Germany remains a rich and comfortable country that treats its old, its sick and its unemployed far more generously than does, say, America or Britain. “Germans live very well. We have a fantastic welfare system,” said Alfred Tacke, a confidant of Mr Schröder in the economics ministry. “Our infrastructure is fantastic. Our workers have six or even eight weeks' holiday a year.” The Americans, he says, work about 25% more hours in a year. So what, he seems to be implying, if Germany drops a few places in those league tables of growth and productivity Again, your article's words, not mine. Nice support for my argument, thx. Germany is one of the places on my list. Hope you like the high taxes.... as I recall, when I was living in Germany in the 90's, the tax rate was around 40-45% for the average Johann... and their state medical insurance, again as I recall, was not the "free ride" your posts tend to paint it as... there are co-pays and daily pays and doctor fees just like medical insurance in the US... We all pay in the end, one way or another. If I add my federal, state, local, sales, SS, Medicare and property taxes, miscellaneous things like phone taxes and utility taxes, to my health insurance premiums it comes out around 45%, maybe more.. Having lived in places where healthcare is private, and where it is publically funded, I preferred the latter, mostly because it was less hassle. I hate the rigmarole I have to go through with my current (private) plan with its list of approved providers, copays, forms for reimbursements, etc.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mirage63 0 #71 July 14, 2005 Quote ....... Germany is one of the places on my list. Sooo (and I know someone somewhere has asked this) WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #72 July 14, 2005 QuoteWe all pay in the end, one way or another. If I add my federal, state, local, sales, SS, Medicare and property taxes, miscellaneous things like phone taxes and utility taxes, to my health insurance premiums it comes out around 45%, maybe more.. Having lived in places where healthcare is private, and where it is publically funded, I preferred the latter, mostly because it was less hassle. I hate the rigmarole I have to go through with my current (private) plan with its list of approved providers, copays, forms for reimbursements, etc. As I said, I'm working off of memory.... but the rate I mentioned was income/medical tax... I know that they have all KINDS of taxes on other stuff... luckily I was exempt as a contractor. I do recall my neighbor griping about medical paperwork... I guess that doesn't change regardless of where you are, hm?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #73 July 14, 2005 QuoteHaving lived in places where healthcare is private, and where it is publically funded, I preferred the latter, mostly because it was less hassle. I hate the rigmarole I have to go through with my current (private) plan with its list of approved providers, copays, forms for reimbursements, etc. That is the best argument ever for public HC. If I really believed that, John, I'd be standing right beside you supporting public health care. But I don't believe it. Just like retirement, the government will give itself a special plan and the rest of us will still have to go through a bunch of crap, only with lines and poorly qualified medical providers. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #74 July 14, 2005 QuoteQuoteHaving lived in places where healthcare is private, and where it is publically funded, I preferred the latter, mostly because it was less hassle. I hate the rigmarole I have to go through with my current (private) plan with its list of approved providers, copays, forms for reimbursements, etc. That is the best argument ever for public HC. If I really believed that, John, I'd be standing right beside you supporting public health care. But I don't believe it. Just like retirement, the government will give itself a special plan and the rest of us will still have to go through a bunch of crap, only with lines and poorly qualified medical providers. Just recounting my own experience.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricTheRed 0 #75 July 14, 2005 QuoteQuoteYour graph is very telling. I'd like to see it normalized to GNP anyway as a better comparison. But with the big swings on the chart in recent, it's likely the normalization will still show what you hope it does. So why not just do that and shut down that particular argument? As you wish... How about a graph of DEBT vs GNP. IMO it's the cumulative debt we carry that is the real problem. There will be a point where service on the debt will become unsustainable without massive new revenue or very high inflation. The US economy at present resembles a huge pyramid scheme that requires ever increasing growth to sustain itself. The problem with projecting growth forever is that it is simply not sustainable. Nothing grows forever unless there are unlimited resources. We are already beginning to see the limits of our resources, even if some choose to ignore that inconvenient fact.illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
