This War is Different? and things to think about

[storm1977 0]

America committed the first act of aggression in the Germany vs. America portion of the war when a U.S. destroyer used depth-charges against a German submarine, in April 1941. Thanks FDR!!!

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[storm1977 0]

Also, before Hitler declared war on America, U.S. ships often engaged in hostilities with German U- boats as they escorted ocean convoys from America to England. The U.S. regularly sent arms to England via those convoys - regularly aided Germany's arch enemy in war against Germany. (In fact, an important historical footnote to those convoys is that America's previously-sensible Neutrality Act was amended, at the urging of Roosevelt's administration, for the express purpose of getting America involved in the European side of WWII via the sending of arms to England)

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Tonto 1]

Quote

America committed the first act of aggression in the Germany vs. America portion of the war when a U.S. destroyer used depth-charges against a German submarine, in April 1941. Thanks FDR!!!

Yeah. That's what I meant about your history teachers. The Lusitania was sunk by the Germans in 1915, and 126 American lives were lost. The incident was intrumental in galvanising US public support for involvement in the 1st World War.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[EBSB52 0]

Quote

America committed the first act of aggression in the Germany vs. America portion of the war when a U.S. destroyer used depth-charges against a German submarine, in April 1941. Thanks FDR!!!

In order to defend the chimp in chief you're going to argue that WWII was unnecessary? I realize some people are desperate for arguments, but that is hilarious. Even if what you say is true, no support to it but your word, their ally Japan had in its plans to bomb a US territory. It must suck to be required to relegate arguments to that depth.

Also, we are fighting a religion here, not a country or 3. We would have to level the entire Middle East and even then there would be insurgents in other countries doing what they did in London.

1 solution = get out of the region. Gas will go for $100 barrel before long. See, that's the only leverage they have, so they use it. Now chimp wants to drill in Alaska so we don't need them. The answers right under your beak, chimp - leave the area and quit forcing Christianity on them. A great Law and Order was on last night depicting these sentiments.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Quote

America committed the first act of aggression in the Germany vs. America portion of the war when a U.S. destroyer used depth-charges against a German submarine, in April 1941. Thanks FDR!!!

This is a list of US shipping losses due to German action prior to Pearl Harbour. Still think the US moved first?

Date Ship Type Cause Result Location Deaths
10/09/39 SS City of Flint Hog Island freighter Capture by pocket battleship Deutchland Released NAtlantic None
2/18/40 El Sonador Freighter (Panama) Torpedo Sunk Shetland
Islands Crew Approx 17
06/12/40 Exochorda Freighter Shelled Slight damage Med-Black Sea None
11/09/40 City of Rayville Freighter German mine Sunk Australian coast Crew 1
12/21/40 Charles Pratt Tanker (Panama) Torpedo Sunk SAtlantic Crew 2
05/21/41 Robin Moor Hog Islander Torpedo & Shelled Sunk Caribbean None
08/11/41 Iberville Freighter Aerial mine from German aircraft Damaged Red Sea None
08/17/41 Longtaker [former Danish Sessa] Freighter (Panama) Torpedo & Shelled Sunk NAtlantic Crew 24 (3 survivors)
09/05/41 Steel Seafarer Freighter Bombed by German aircraft Sunk Gulf of Suez None
09/11/41 Arkansan Freighter Shelled Damaged Indian-Red Sea None
09/11/41 Montana [former Danish Paula] Freighter (Panama) Torpedo Sunk North Atlantic Crew 26
09/19/41 Pink Star [former Danish Landby] Freighter (Panama) Torpedo Sunk North Atlantic Crew 13
09/27/41 I. C. White Tanker (Panama) Torpedo Sunk South Atlantic Crew 3
10/16/41 Bold Venture [former Danish Alssund] Freighter (Panama) Torpedo Sunk North Atlantic Crew 17, (17 survivors)
10/19/41 Lehigh Freighter Torpedo Sunk ApproachMed None
11/05/41 Montrose Freighter Collision Unknown North Atlantic Unknown
11/11/41 Meridian [former Italian Dino] Freighter (Panama) Torpedo Sunk North Atlantic Crew approx. 38
11/14/41 Crusader [former Danish Brosund] Freighter Torpedo Sunk North Atlantic Crew approx 33; German POW 1
11/16/41 Turecamo Boys Tug Unknown Sunk North Atlantic Crew 9
11/19/41 Del Pidio Unknown (Philippines) Mine Unknown Philippines Crew 6
11/19/41 Edridio Mindoro (67 ton) Mine Sunk Philippines Unknown
12/02/41 Astral Tanker Torpedo Sunk NAtlantic Crew 37
12/03/41 Sagadahoc Freighter Torpedo Sunk ApproachMed Crew 1
12/07/41 Cynthia Olson Steam Schooner Torpedo Sunk Pacific Crew 33; US Army 2

[kallend 2,027]

Changing history to suit current political needs; it reminds me of "1984".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[storm1977 0]

And the winner of the Most ignorant stupid statement of the week goes to EBSB52 for this one

" leave the area and quit forcing Christianity on them. "

I guess you overlooked the composition of the Iraqi government now in place thanks to the US. I also guess that is to be expected from shallow uneducated posts.

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[EBSB52 0]

Quote

Quote

America committed the first act of aggression in the Germany vs. America portion of the war when a U.S. destroyer used depth-charges against a German submarine, in April 1941. Thanks FDR!!!

This is a list of US shipping losses due to German action prior to Pearl Harbour. Still think the US moved first?

Date Ship Type Cause Result Location Deaths
10/09/39 SS City of Flint Hog Island freighter Capture by pocket battleship Deutchland Released NAtlantic None
2/18/40 El Sonador Freighter (Panama) Torpedo Sunk Shetland
Islands Crew Approx 17
06/12/40 Exochorda Freighter Shelled Slight damage Med-Black Sea None
11/09/40 City of Rayville Freighter German mine Sunk Australian coast Crew 1
12/21/40 Charles Pratt Tanker (Panama) Torpedo Sunk SAtlantic Crew 2
05/21/41 Robin Moor Hog Islander Torpedo & Shelled Sunk Caribbean None
08/11/41 Iberville Freighter Aerial mine from German aircraft Damaged Red Sea None
08/17/41 Longtaker [former Danish Sessa] Freighter (Panama) Torpedo & Shelled Sunk NAtlantic Crew 24 (3 survivors)
09/05/41 Steel Seafarer Freighter Bombed by German aircraft Sunk Gulf of Suez None
09/11/41 Arkansan Freighter Shelled Damaged Indian-Red Sea None
09/11/41 Montana [former Danish Paula] Freighter (Panama) Torpedo Sunk North Atlantic Crew 26
09/19/41 Pink Star [former Danish Landby] Freighter (Panama) Torpedo Sunk North Atlantic Crew 13
09/27/41 I. C. White Tanker (Panama) Torpedo Sunk South Atlantic Crew 3
10/16/41 Bold Venture [former Danish Alssund] Freighter (Panama) Torpedo Sunk North Atlantic Crew 17, (17 survivors)
10/19/41 Lehigh Freighter Torpedo Sunk ApproachMed None
11/05/41 Montrose Freighter Collision Unknown North Atlantic Unknown
11/11/41 Meridian [former Italian Dino] Freighter (Panama) Torpedo Sunk North Atlantic Crew approx. 38
11/14/41 Crusader [former Danish Brosund] Freighter Torpedo Sunk North Atlantic Crew approx 33; German POW 1
11/16/41 Turecamo Boys Tug Unknown Sunk North Atlantic Crew 9
11/19/41 Del Pidio Unknown (Philippines) Mine Unknown Philippines Crew 6
11/19/41 Edridio Mindoro (67 ton) Mine Sunk Philippines Unknown
12/02/41 Astral Tanker Torpedo Sunk NAtlantic Crew 37
12/03/41 Sagadahoc Freighter Torpedo Sunk ApproachMed Crew 1
12/07/41 Cynthia Olson Steam Schooner Torpedo Sunk Pacific Crew 33; US Army 2

OK, even if valid and true, what are we saying here? We're looking at an enemy that can't even get 1 fighter off the ground whne we travel 1/2 way around the world - they have home field advantage - shit, s/b easy for them. Germany was much more formidable and fights as a country, Arabic nations fight in fragmented groups that can assimilate into other societies, can we see the truths here? There will be no pact signed with all of the fragmented groups here; can you describe a way to win this war? It's unwinnable, just like N. Korea and VN. Actually we could have won those if we were willing to throw another 100k troops at em, there will be no winning the war against the Muslims. Remember, they like this war. This is like the Cardinals playing the Super bowl chamos; they have zero to lose. These guys are excited about this war, and now they're changing their MO to that of not having to blow themselves up as in London. They're evolvin to using timers it appears, which makes them more dangerous.

There is one answer here - fuck Israel and get out of there - be their gas ci=ustomer and turn a blind eye. Russia tried teh same thing in Afghanistan and lost like 20k troops, right?

[rehmwa 2]

You might want to tone down the leading statement there before a greenie forks you

or maybe you don't

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[storm1977 0]

Also, as a side note. It is difficult to take comments you make seriously when you stoop to the childish level of calling people names.

We know you don't like the President. But refering to him (any president) as a chimp is somewhat childish. It makes not only you look immature, but also your posts. Just some advise for you If you want people to take you seriously, and your views seriously, maybe you could argue with a bit more maturity.

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[storm1977 0]

Quote

You might want to tone down the leading statement there before a greenie forks you

or maybe you don't

I appreciate your concern, but I thought about what I wrote before I wrote it. I am not attacking the poster, I am attacking the information posted.
Because someone makes a stupid post doesn't mean they are a stupid person.

I say stupid things all the time, but again, it doesn't make me dumb.

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[tcnelson 1]

go back and read the post that i replied to cliff.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[mr2mk1g 10]

Quote

OK, even if valid and true, what are we saying here?

I'm not saying much at all. Just striving for historical accuracy by refuting Storm's assertion that the US made the first strike against Germany in WWII. I don’t think there's much at all to be drawn from that limb of the discussion in any event.

[PhreeZone 20]

I'll just address part of this:

Quote

> JOHN GLENN ON THE SENATE FLOOR Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:13

This happened May 3, 1974

Read up on the historical context behind this. The original post completely distorts this and makes it sound like he accused Glenn of not having a job, he implied instead Glenn had never held a job where he was accountable for the management of money and such was a poor choice for a senator. This was in no reguards a recent conversation and he was refering to visiting soldiers from Vietnam not Iraq

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Tonto 1]

Ga! He's just 30 years out.

let it go already!

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[EBSB52 0]

Quote

You might want to tone down the leading statement there before a greenie forks you

or maybe you don't

Storm wrote:

And the winner of the Most ignorant stupid statement of the week goes to EBSB52 for this one

Don't worry, I'm fair game. Hell, I get banned for saying someone is using compensation:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1706056;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;guest=14139326

He claims he would, truth is screamers never fight, and fighters never scream. Could be littleman complex - big truck / small cock..... essesentially compensation.

This in response to 'the person in question' saying he'd basically kill anyone burning a flag. This is compensation. I don't know if he owns a truck and I don't wanna know about the other. To say this was an attack is such a joke that you have to understand why Tom banned me.

At best there will be a, "This is your 1 and final warning." Nah, the greenies don't want to keep the peace, they're people too and they use their bias to enact their agendas.... not saying I wouldn't do the same.

Conclusion: I'm fair game - I better not defend myself tho.

[EBSB52 0]

Quote

Also, as a side note. It is difficult to take comments you make seriously when you stoop to the childish level of calling people names.

We know you don't like the President. But refering to him (any president) as a chimp is somewhat childish. It makes not only you look immature, but also your posts. Just some advise for you If you want people to take you seriously, and your views seriously, maybe you could argue with a bit more maturity.

Please, give me your, "advise" (advice). Oh, you mean like this:

I say stupid things all the time, but again, it doesn't make me dumb.



And the winner of the Most ignorant stupid statement of the week goes to EBSB52 for this one



I also guess that is to be expected from shallow uneducated posts.

[storm1977 0]

What is your point?

I do say stupid things sometimes....

As do you and everyone else here.

I am merely pointing out that saying the president is trying to spread Chistianity throughout the middle east is an ignorant, unfounded, stupid thing to say.

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[TomAiello 26]

Reposting a personal attack that you were banned for posting in the 1st place isn't recommended.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Hackb431 0]

Personally I don't give a flying F about who started what conflict on what premisis. That is for politician, hopefully smater than I, to debate. All I care about is that people support those who would sacrifice thier lives for their country.

As a current US soldier I do not agree with the tactics of AQ but you have to remember they are fighting for their belief structure just as we are. I have met and killed AQ fighters in the mountains of Afghanistan and after the fact said a prayer for them and thier families. I hope they find peace in death as I hope for myself when that time comes.

Pro Patria - For Country

Out

HackB A.K.A. "Puppy"

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

The intent was not justification, but providing perspective.

Then wouldn't you also have to take population density and population size into consideration....among many other things.... Just to provide some perspective.....

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

I guess you overlooked the composition of the Iraqi government now in place thanks to the US. I also guess that is to be expected from shallow uneducated posts.

An Iraqi government put in place through the actions of the US thanks the US.... big stinking deal. I don't think that statement has any effect at all on the arguement at hand.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[ViperPilot 0]

Nonetheless, do you agree that it does put it in perspective? I think it does from a neutral standpoint. I mean, comparing the beginnings of this war with others through historical fact isn't really biasing one way or another.

[storm1977 0]

I am not sure what you are arguing, but this guy thinks BUSH is trying just to spread chistianity.

I think if that were true, he wouldn't have helped create a multi religous mostly muslim government in Iraq. I think it is a very valid point.
The liberal also screamed NO WAR FOR OIL before iraq... Because that is what their shallow minds thought this was about. This much I know...
If we went to Iraq for OIL, then we are getting screwed right now!!! I pay 2.50 for regular :-)

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[ViperPilot 0]

Quote

Fine add the 1st war to the list. The point is that Iraq right now was started no differently than pretty much all of our wars/conflicts in the past.

Not WWII, a country attacked us there - here a radical group attacked us.

Yes, Japan attacked us, not Germany. It's irrelevant at that juncture that Germany and Japan had somewhat of an alliance. We still attacked Germany when they had yet to attack us, just as we attacked Iraq when they had not directly attacked us. It's the same situation.

Quote

LIBERATE: To set free, as from oppression, confinement, or foreign control.

Ok, as soon as we leave they will be liberated, just as I wrote.

Nope, Iraq is not under foreign control. We are there, but we are not running the government. The government is entirely made up of Iraqis. We set Iraq free from opporession and confinement by a dictatorship. We do not control Iraq anymore, Iraqi people do. So yes, it is liberated.

Quote

You can't surmise that w/o being able to read the future.

No one could surmise Hitler would kill 6 million jews, 10 million Russians, and have plans to actually take over the entire world (and believe he could). No one at the time would ever surmise that. Does that mean we were wrong to go in at the time? Heck no it doesn't. Remember, hind sight is always 20/20. You never know what the outcome will be after a war, never. That doesn't mean it's wrong to go to war for the possiblity of saving lives.

Quote

It's amazingly clairvoyant for you to 'guess' that with all the lives lost that there would have ultimately been more lives lost w/o action.

Same thing applies as I said above. In 1939, you could say the exact thing about WWII. However, at the time it was a pretty good guess that more people would die if we just let Hitler be. It's also a pretty good guess that more people would die if we had let Saddam be. He'd already killed half a million of his own people. And that's the ones we know about. The trend was increasing death, so it's a pretty good guess that he was not going to knock it off any time soon.