London Transport Terrorism - again

[storm1977 0]

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The West will always be a target for extremist, but he does bring up a valid question. How has the war in Iraq impacted terrorism? Also has it turned moderates into extremist thus providing new recruits to these organizations. Has it alienated some of our allies in the mid east? All those a valid questions that really need to be looked at.

In your post a few pages down you list numerous terrorist attack, but one thing that separates the UK one from the rest is that the terrorists in the UK were home grown, ie UK citizens. Why did they turn? Did the UKs participation change their outlook on their country? Unfortunately we will never know the answers to these questions. All we can do now is speculate, but these questions should be addressed.

You are right we may never know the answers, however, one only needs to look across the pond to see Pre- 9/11 the same situation.
There are "Sleepers" in many nations in the West I am sure. THe 9/11 hijackers had been here for a while. Also, the first WTC bombing took place in 1993, 8 yrs later they hit it again.
It is very plausible to argue that "Homegrown terrorist" aren't exactly "Homegrown".

These people are obviously delusional, but it must be pointed out that these people in London spent time in terrorist training camps in Pakistan. Their loyalty is NOT to England... Their loyalty is to their religion no matter where they live.

Fact, more muslims are killed by muslim terrorist every year then anyone else.
These extremists are loyal to no one other than Allah (misguidedly). They have no concern of the UK, the USA, or other muslims not willing to accept their form of radical islam.

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[bodypilot90 0]

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as I've previously pointed out the BBC is most certainly not averse to using the term "Terrorist". Don't forget you're talking to people who wake up to BBC news, watch BBC tv and drive home listening to BBC radio.

and as I told you before they had pulled the term "Terrorist" and replaced it with bombers untill they were called on it. The reason was some PC bull.

[kallend 2,027]

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I simply don't believe that the UK would be being bombed now had we not sent troops to Iraq. What facts disprove 'our' statements anyway?

As far as disproving, you could look at 9/11. It was a completely unprovoked terrorist attack based soley on hatred towards the West. .

I was under the impression that the 9/11 attacks were directly due to the stationing of US troops in Saudi Arabia. How would you feel if tens of thousands of, say, Chinese troops were stationed in Hawaii?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[justinb138 0]

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How would you feel if tens of thousands of, say, Chinese troops were stationed in Hawaii?

I wouldn't fly a plane into a building and kill thousands of innocent people.

[kallend 2,027]

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How would you feel if tens of thousands of, say, Chinese troops were stationed in Hawaii?

I wouldn't fly a plane into a building and kill thousands of innocent people.

I didn't ask what you wouldn't do, I asked how would you feel.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Michele 1]

I wasn't sure it was the same group, but they're now saying that the manufacture of today's bomb is identical to those of two weeks ago.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[kelpdiver 2]

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As for Britain being safe if it didn't attack Iraq - nah -our involvement in Iraq simply underlined the word "Britain" on the terrorists list of targets, it didn't put it there. Britain was on that list years ago and it was already in bold.

I'm curious to know why you think we were already on the list in bold.

Britain remains a leading Western power, and if memory serves, was still a colonial power in the Middle East not that long ago. I imagine many current Islamic power holders were alive back then. After America, who else would be higher on the list of Western oppressors?

[justinb138 0]

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How would you feel if tens of thousands of, say, Chinese troops were stationed in Hawaii?

I wouldn't fly a plane into a building and kill thousands of innocent people.

I didn't ask what you wouldn't do, I asked how would you feel.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Gravitymaster 0]

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How would you feel if tens of thousands of, say, Chinese troops were stationed in Hawaii?

I wouldn't fly a plane into a building and kill thousands of innocent people.

I didn't ask what you wouldn't do, I asked how would you feel.

If prior to that the govt. had been murdering 100's of 1000's of people every year, I'd feel pretty good. I'd have some hope again.

[jkm2500 0]

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I didn't ask what you wouldn't do, I asked how would you feel.
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Kallend,
I respect you as a person who has a lot of insight on a lot of different issues. My question for you is how does this really fit the issue?

Troops in Saudi were put there as a deterrent against another invasion of Kuwait as well as a deterrent from attacking Saudi. I think that either I am misguided or you are trying to say that the people who have suicide bombed, flown airplanes into buildings, and a dozen other activities outside this their home turf are rational thinkers. If what you said is the motivation why haven't they stopped their attacks now that we (being the US) are pulling all troops out of Saudi? Another reason for Saudi was strategic location.

As far as how I would feel...If I was living in Saudi and I was actually a Saudi? I probably would not be concerned with what anybody was doing in my country as long as it was bringing me more money....you forget they are rich over there. Rich off of the money they get from Americans that buy their oil. Rich enough that they pay Americans to come over and work the oil fields. Hell they hire people to come in from other countries to pick up the Garbage. But once again...you expect them to be rational thinkers. But, rational thinking people dont blow up buildings for their god. Now....you answer the question, How would you feel?

The primary purpose of the Armed Forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise.

[crozby 0]

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The history of the conflict is important to understand, and the history goes back - in this case, at least - all the way to the beginning of the last century (farther, if you want to go there). OBL stated the issues clearly in his fatwah...and that was very much before the war in Iraq.

Can't agree with you there. The UK along with many European nations has been subsidising Palastine the way the USA subsidises the Israelis for donkeys years. There has not been the same long running hatred for the UK as there is for the USA.

The only British deaths in that great long list of terrorist attrocities Steel produced are in the 9/11 attack, and whilst some may claim 9/11 was an attack on the west because some Europeans worked there, it was far more clearly an attack on the USA.

Do you think Spain was attacked because of some ancient historical reasons or because of her involvement in Iraq?

[Erroll 80]

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the manufacture of today's bomb is identical to those of two weeks ago.

Local news reports suggest that these explosives were likely concocted at the same time, but that they had gone 'bad' or 'off' (as happens with 'home-made' explosives), with only the detonators actually exploding.

[madscape 0]

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How would you feel if tens of thousands of, say, Chinese troops were stationed in Hawaii?

I wouldn't fly a plane into a building and kill thousands of innocent people.

The US Govt was invited/allowed to station troops at Prince Sultan AB. I doubt that the US Govt would permit a garrison of Red Chinese troops to be stationed on Hawai'i. (note correct spelling of the islands in question)

[Michele 1]

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Can't agree with you there. The UK along with many European nations has been subsidising Palastine the way the USA subsidises the Israelis for donkeys years. There has not been the same long running hatred for the UK as there is for the USA.

Well, all right...but it's what OBL said. I'm not making the conclusions up, and he specifically spoke to the Balfour treaty. Further, whether you've supported Palestine or not, it is the concept of westernization in the ME which is anathema to OBL.

But blame Bush if you want...

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The only British deaths in that great long list of terrorist attrocities Steel produced are in the 9/11 attack, and whilst some may claim 9/11 was an attack on the west because some Europeans worked there, it was far more clearly an attack on the USA.

Steel did a rather admirable job in culling terrorist attacks to demonstrate something particular.

I do agree that it was an attack on the US, but it was also an attack on ideology and way of life. Because of that, most western countries set on alert. Additionally, the first part of the Gulf War involved Brits, too.

I'd research a bit more of the conflict, and see what OBL and AQ have been saying prior to 9/11 and just after it. Nothing to do with the current war in Iraq, and everything to do with ideology, westernization of the ME, and a particularly lethal combination of psychopathology, finances, and charisma.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Michele 1]

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Local news reports suggest that these explosives were likely concocted at the same time, but that they had gone 'bad' or 'off' (as happens with 'home-made' explosives), with only the detonators actually exploding.

I've been wracking my brain, and I seem to recall some cars (??) with additional unexploded bombs on 7/7. I could be totally wrong, but I remember thinking at that time that if that is true, this is not yet over. And I'm not speaking to the events in Leeds, although that is also connected in everything.

Honestly, I thought it was copycats because of the ineffectiveness of the bombs, but I seem to have thought wrong. Damn.

ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[ViperPilot 0]

I don't need to say much to this since several others did. However, the Saudi govt wanted us there. We were not an invading/occupying force. So, it'd be the same as saying, "hey China, we need you to station troops on Hawaii to help keep us and the region safe from Maui aggressors." So in that case, I'd be fine with them being there.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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and as I told you before they had pulled the term "Terrorist" and replaced it with bombers untill they were called on it. The reason was some PC bull.

You are being fed lies and you are repeating them.

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The BBC has issued the following statement on the issue to clarify its policy:

It is not the case that the BBC has stopped using the word 'terrorist'.

The word terrorist is not banned from the BBC. We try to be as precise as possible in our language and the word 'bomber' is a more precise description, but we also use the word 'terrorist'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ifs/hi/newsid_4680000/newsid_4680100/4680125.stm

[caz 0]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1189920,00.html

SUICIDE BOMBER SHOT

Police have shot a suspected suicide bomber near a tube station in south London.

Marksmen opened fire near Stockwell Tube station as passengers were evacuated. It is thought the man was killed.


Passenger Briony Coetsee said: "We were on the Tube and then we suddenly heard someone say `get out, get out' and then we heard gunshots."

Sky News Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt said: "There is no word on whether he has been killed or simply injured."

If the suspect is confirmed to be a suicide bomber, it would mark the fifth attempted terrorist attack on London in less than a day.

The is thought to have been either stepping on to the train or was on the platform.

Brunt said: "He was probably shot in the head. There is no confirmation of that."

Police have been given orders to shoot to kill if they believe someone is about to detonate a bomb.

Two underground lines are understood to have been closed following the incident.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4706787.stm

Man shot by armed police on Tube

A man has been shot at Stockwell Tube station by armed police officers, police confirm.
Passengers were evacuated from a Tube train on the Northern Line station in south London after the incident.

Passenger Mark Whitby told BBC News he had seen an Asian man shot five times by "plain-clothes police officers".

Services on the Victoria and Northern lines have been suspended following a request by the police, London Underground said.

Police are hunting four would-be bombers after Thursday's London blasts.

The bombers fled after detonators went off, causing small blasts, but failed to detonate the bombs themselves.

Mr Whitby, told BBC News: "I saw an Asian guy run onto the train hotly pursued by three plain-clothes police officers.

"One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him."

Passenger Briony Coetsee said: "We were on the Tube and then we suddenly heard someone say, 'Get out, get out' and then we heard gunshots."

edit to add BBC link

~~~ London Skydivers ~~~

[mr2mk1g 10]

hmmm... See this link for more info: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

I didn't think we had plain clothed armed police in this country?? Sounds more like security services to me (MI5 / MI6).

Not too sure how well bunlding him to the ground and then firing 5 shots into him is going to go down... still if he's got a bomb how else are you going to deal with him?

[caz 0]

very scary stuff. I for one am a little worried about having to carry my cypress enabled rig in my rig bag on the Northern Line after work tonight!

"excuse me Miss does that huge bag contain any explosives?"

"err..."

bang bang bang!

~~~ London Skydivers ~~~

[Newbie 0]

The flying squad are all plain clothed.

I would not be at all surprised if we now routinely have (and have had for some time) plain clothes members of SO19 on the tube waiting for a moment like this.

Good on them is all i can say, at least it shows we have something of a line of defence set up.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Ron 10]

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How would you feel if tens of thousands of, say, Chinese troops were stationed in Hawaii?

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I wouldn't fly a plane into a building and kill thousands of innocent people.

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I didn't ask what you wouldn't do, I asked how would you feel.

John you can be pissed about something without killing innocent people.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Not too sure how well bunlding him to the ground and then firing 5 shots into him is going to go down... still if he's got a bomb how else are you going to deal with him?

What? Can't you see he was clearly not a threat anymore.

I can't believe you people support killing a man that is INNOCENT. You don't know he was up to no good. He was down..Why did they have to fire at him then?

I hope the police get fired, and I want Blair to be held accountable.

I say this since so many jumped on the US soldier who shot the combatant in Iraq.

What makes THIS OK, and not the other?

Not you mr2m....But others.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ScottishJohn 25]

I don't know why he was shot on the ground.

Maybe he was going to trigger a bomb.

I don't know

There isn't enough facts at the moment to say what went on.

We don't even know who shot him (police, M15, MI6, Special Branch, Special Forces)

Do different security forces have different rules of engagement.

I don't know.

Just offering up some possible thoughts.


Just read on bbc web site.

"He ran, they followed him. They say they gave him a warning, they then shot him.

"They brought in the air ambulance. They did everything they can to revive him. He died at the scene."

Police had warned they would shoot to kill if they believed somebody to be a threat, she added.



Another passenger on the train, Anthony Larkin, told BBC News the man had been wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out".

"I've seen these police officers shouting, 'Get down, get down!', and I've seen this guy who appears to have a bomb belt and wires coming out.

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If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers

[Skyrad 0]

MI5 don't usualy carry they gather Intel and analyse. MI6 officers cn be a law unto themselves but again unlikely to be carring in the UK. No way would four of them carry out such an action, that is a laughable idea. Could be SO19 a special unit was formed for this type of Operation only about a month ago. Could also be SSR, or the Inc.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca