London Transport Terrorism - again

[storm1977 0]

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I don't know why he was shot on the ground.

Maybe he was going to trigger a bomb.

I don't know

There isn't enough facts at the moment to say what went on.

We don't even know who shot him (police, M15, MI6, Special Branch, Special Forces)

Do different security forces have different rules of engagement.

I don't know.

Just offering up some possible thoughts.


Just read on bbc web site.

"He ran, they followed him. They say they gave him a warning, they then shot him.

"They brought in the air ambulance. They did everything they can to revive him. He died at the scene."

Police had warned they would shoot to kill if they believed somebody to be a threat, she added.



Another passenger on the train, Anthony Larkin, told BBC News the man had been wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out".

"I've seen these police officers shouting, 'Get down, get down!', and I've seen this guy who appears to have a bomb belt and wires coming out.

no, there aren't enough facts, but this we do know based on police and witness reports.

THe man was wearing a big jacket.
He was not carrying a backpack of any type.
He tripped and was tackled to the ground.
He was then shot 5 times.
He was not in posession of a bomb (Police statement).

I am trying not to change the subject of the thread, but i will bet money, certain people on DZ.com would be shouting murder right now if this happened in America. Or even (as ron said) on a war battlefield.
It is a really nice double standard.

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[kallend 2,027]

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How would you feel if tens of thousands of, say, Chinese troops were stationed in Hawaii?

I wouldn't fly a plane into a building and kill thousands of innocent people.

I didn't ask what you wouldn't do, I asked how would you feel.

What does that have to do with anything?

Because, IMO, no-one who feels good about their situation in life becomes a suicide bomber.

Why avoid the question?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Skyrad 0]

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The West will always be a target for extremist, but he does bring up a valid question. How has the war in Iraq impacted terrorism? Also has it turned moderates into extremist thus providing new recruits to these organizations. Has it alienated some of our allies in the mid east? All those a valid questions that really need to be looked at.

In your post a few pages down you list numerous terrorist attack, but one thing that separates the UK one from the rest is that the terrorists in the UK were home grown, ie UK citizens. Why did they turn? Did the UKs participation change their outlook on their country? Unfortunately we will never know the answers to these questions. All we can do now is speculate, but these questions should be addressed.

You are right we may never know the answers, however, one only needs to look across the pond to see Pre- 9/11 the same situation.
There are "Sleepers" in many nations in the West I am sure. THe 9/11 hijackers had been here for a while. Also, the first WTC bombing took place in 1993, 8 yrs later they hit it again.
It is very plausible to argue that "Homegrown terrorist" aren't exactly "Homegrown".

These people are obviously delusional, but it must be pointed out that these people in London spent time in terrorist training camps in Pakistan. Their loyalty is NOT to England... Their loyalty is to their religion no matter where they live.

Fact, more muslims are killed by muslim terrorist every year then anyone else.
These extremists are loyal to no one other than Allah (misguidedly). They have no concern of the UK, the USA, or other muslims not willing to accept their form of radical islam.

Actualy as far has been acertained non of the men have been accused of attending 'terroist training camps' in Pakistan. If anything Islamic extreamist groups in Pakistan are being more firmly dealt with than here in the UK. It is reported that two of the bombers attended 'Religious' schools in Pakistan which is very different from a 'Terrorist training camp'.
These men were born in Britan grew up in Britan and were British. 'Homegrown' I'm pretty sure that if you had asked one of them they would have described themselves as British second and a 'Muslim' first. They were criminals and yes they were traitors, but there is no doubting they were British.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kallend 2,027]

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I didn't ask what you wouldn't do, I asked how would you feel.
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Kallend,
I respect you as a person who has a lot of insight on a lot of different issues. My question for you is how does this really fit the issue?

Troops in Saudi were put there as a deterrent against another invasion of Kuwait as well as a deterrent from attacking Saudi. I think that either I am misguided or you are trying to say that the people who have suicide bombed, flown airplanes into buildings, and a dozen other activities outside this their home turf are rational thinkers. If what you said is the motivation why haven't they stopped their attacks now that we (being the US) are pulling all troops out of Saudi? Another reason for Saudi was strategic location.

So they're pulling out of Saudi - big deal. There are still hundreds of thousands of US troops in the middle east.

If foreign troops had invaded my country and garrisoned themselves here, I'd be pretty pissed.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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Because, IMO, no-one who feels good about their situation in life becomes a suicide bomber.

Then why don't we see kids from the American Gettos blowing themselves up in Malls?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,027]

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Because, IMO, no-one who feels good about their situation in life becomes a suicide bomber.

Then why don't we see kids from the American Gettos blowing themselves up in Malls?

They express their anger in other ways - like street gang activities. Diffrn't strokes...

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[storm1977 0]

One thing to note.... You have had other terrorist which were "Homegrown"

If I recall correctly, Richard Ried the Shoe bomber, tried to blow up a plane to the USA. Also, I believe that was Pre-Iraq.

So, statements earlier by Croz don't add up.

Chris

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[storm1977 0]

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It's great isn't it. Us Brits are so much safer since Tony fucking Blair decided to wedge his tongue firmly up Bush's backside and help with the invasion of Iraq.

I think this particular little performance has been laid on for the benefit of Mr Howard, the Australian prime minister who is currently visiting the idiot Blair.

Australia will be the next member of the 'coalition of the moronic' to be hit by these kinds of retaliations in my opinion.

Crozby.... Please explain how this HOME GROWN terrorist was caused "BUSH AND BLAIR's" war.

London-born Richard Reid has been sentenced in the United States after admitting trying to blow up a commercial flight using bombs hidden in his shoes.

The son of an English mother and Jamaican father, so-called "shoe bomber" Richard Reid was born in 1973 in the London suburb of Bromley.

I was not there to give him the love and affection he should have got

Richard Reid's father
It is hardly a natural breeding ground for dissidents - the borough's schools are among the UK's best, and street crime is half that in smarter areas such as Kensington and Chelsea.

The young Reid is said to have attended Thomas Tallis secondary school in Blackheath, south-east London, from 1984 to 1989.

His father, Robin, told BBC News he had been in prison for most of Richard's childhood.

"I was not there to give him the love and affection he should have got," he said.

His son fell into a life of petty crime and in the mid-1990s was jailed for a string of muggings, for which he served sentences in a number of prisons, including Feltham young offenders' institution in west London.

It was while at Feltham that Reid is said to have converted to Islam.

Worship

After his release, he followed the path taken by many other Muslim prisoners, to Brixton Mosque, in south London.

The place of worship has a reputation for attracting converts and helping ex-offenders re-adjust to life in the outside world.

Inmates at Feltham
Reid said to have converted to Islam at Feltham young offenders' institution
Initially he fitted in well. Taking the name Abdel Rahim, he became known for his willingness to get involved in the workings of the mosque and to learn Arabic.

But at some point Reid began to get involved with extremist elements, says the chairman of Brixton Mosque, Abdul Haqq Baker.

Reid was "tempted away" by "individuals who set up a few years ago away from the mosque", Mr Baker says.

"Their teachings were a lot more militant."

He says extremists worked on "weak characters" and believes Reid was "very, very impressionable".

Reid attended external classes and started to question the peaceful philosophy of his teachers.

Change in appearance

His appearance also changed, says Mr Baker. He went from wearing western clothes to the traditional Islamic thobe - a loose, long-sleeved, ankle-length garment - with a khaki combat jacket on top.

Abdul Haqq Baker outside the Brixton Mosque
Abdul Haqq Baker: "Reid was very impressionable"
There is speculation that at some point during his drift to a more extreme philosophy, he may have met Zacarias Moussaoui, who has been charged in the US with conspiracy over the 11 September attacks.

Mr Moussaoui, a Frenchman of Moroccan origin, also attended the Brixton Mosque during the 1990s but was expelled for his extreme views and his attempts to impose them on the younger, more easily influenced members.

Towards the end of 1998, Reid ceased worshipping at the mosque and is thought to have moved to Pakistan.

He reportedly sent several letters written in Arabic to friends in London. His mother, Lesley Hughes, who is separated from Reid's father, also believed he was in Pakistan.

But mother and son eventually lost contact and in summer 2001 Ms Hughes telephoned Brixton Mosque seeking news.

About the same time, Reid is believed to have embarked on an extensive travel programme, which saw him visit seven countries including some of the world's so-called "terror capitals".

Gone missing

He is thought to have spent time in Egypt, Israel, Turkey, Pakistan, Belgium, the Netherlands, France and possibly Afghanistan.

Zacarias Moussaoui
Moussaoui: Charged with conspiracy over 11 September attacks
Commentators have suggested he may have used some of these excursions to test the security arrangements on various airlines, before boarding American Airlines flight 63 from Paris to Miami on 22 December 2001.

He was overpowered by passengers and crew on the flight after trying to set light to a fuse connected to the explosives.

It has also been reported that a computer allegedly used by al-Qaeda leaders in Afghanistan contained files with details of a "scouting" trip Reid is believed to have carried out to identify targets to attack.

The computer files describe an operative known as Brother Abdul Ra'uff who travelled to the same countries Reid is believed to have spent time in.

Like Reid, the operative travelled on a British passport and was closely questioned by Israeli security.

As a result of the files the United States Government laid new charges against Mr Reid, including attempted murder.

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Ron 10]

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Because, IMO, no-one who feels good about their situation in life becomes a suicide bomber.

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Then why don't we see kids from the American Gettos blowing themselves up in Malls?

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They express their anger in other ways - like street gang activities. Diffrn't strokes...

John, you said: "Because, IMO, no-one who feels good about their situation in life becomes a suicide bomber"

Then when I asked why not another group who is not happy does not seem to be doing it, you claim different strokes?

So what is THE difference between a guy that does suicide bomb, and the same type of guy that does not?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,027]

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Then why don't we see kids from the American Gettos blowing themselves up in Malls?

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They express their anger in other ways - like street gang activities. Diffrn't strokes...

John, you said: "Because, IMO, no-one who feels good about their situation in life becomes a suicide bomber"

Then when I asked why not another group who is not happy does not seem to be doing it, you claim different strokes?

So what is THE difference between a guy that does suicide bomb, and the same type of guy that does not?

There's no logical inconsistency there. Folks who are pissed off act out in various different ways - some become suicide bombers, some join street gangs, some become freeflyers.

Folks who are content generally don't act out in sociopathic ways.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[dropoutdave 0]

One of them dies.

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May Contain Nut traces......

[Ron 10]

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There's no logical inconsistency there. Folks who are pissed off act out in various different ways - some become suicide bombers, some join street gangs, some become freeflyers.

Why is it that all the American folks that are pissed off only very few become suicide bombers? But Muslims in the same situation seem to travel great distances to do it?

Come on John use science here. Why does ONE religious background seem to have more suicide bombers than others?

You can rule out envoronment snce Reid was living OK, the folks that just did London were living OK...

So what is the ONE thing that takes a malcontent and makes them want to wear an explosive suit?

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Folks who are content generally don't act out in sociopathic ways.

Agreed, but why is only one group so full off people who are willing to blow themselves up and another group is not?

BTW the freeflier comment was great.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,027]

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There's no logical inconsistency there. Folks who are pissed off act out in various different ways - some become suicide bombers, some join street gangs, some become freeflyers.

Why is it that all the American folks that are pissed off only very few become suicide bombers? But Muslims in the same situation seem to travel great distances to do it?

Come on John use science here. Why does ONE religious background seem to have more suicide bombers than others?

.

Something to do with virgins, I think. If I martyr myself no-one has promised me any nookie in the afterlife.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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Something to do with virgins, I think. If I martyr myself no-one has promised me any nookie in the afterlife

OK so you think the difference IS the religion.

So when you claim that people in dire situations become suicide bombers. You really mean "When Muslims are in dire situations they become suicide bombers."

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mr2mk1g 10]

He didn't say people in dire situations become suicide bombers - he said people who aren't in dire situations don't become suicide bombers. The two aren't synonymous.

[Skyrad 0]

Oh, so all those Kamakazi pilots were muslims...How interesting

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[caz 0]

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Why is it that all the American folks that are pissed off only very few become suicide bombers? But Muslims in the same situation seem to travel great distances to do it?

being an American and being a Muslim are not mutually exclusive.

Nationality and religion are independant things.

~~~ London Skydivers ~~~

[Ron 10]

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He didn't say people in dire situations become suicide bombers - he said people who aren't in dire situations don't become suicide bombers. The two aren't synonymous.

Same thing. Quit playing word games.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[dbattman 0]

No, but they carried the same level of fanaticism that is now seen coming from the Muslim homicide bombers. Kamikaze was a tactic born out of desperation by the outnumbered and outgunned Japanese air force to disable allied ships and aircraft carriers. The volunteers were glamorized with ceremonies and honors before taking off and crashing a 500 pounder into a carrier deck. Of course, only the raw recruits did this- the experienced pilots were too valuable.

To say it is just the Mulsim religion is a little distorted. It is more of a 'brainwashed fanaticism' that is spawning this, and it just happens to come out of the radical Islamic faction right now. If there were suicide Wicans blowing themselves up there would be the same focus on that group.

(just my $0.02)

[Ron 10]

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Oh, so all those Kamakazi pilots were muslims...How interesting

Kamakazi pilots ALSO did it for religion. The Emperor was 'God'.

But why don't we have waves of getto folks killing people over here?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Skyrad 0]

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Kamikaze was a tactic born out of desperation by the outnumbered and outgunned Japanese air force

To say it is just the Mulsim religion is a little distorted.

Quite right born out of desperation, the point made earlier in this thread. To say its the Muslim religion is not just a little distorted but totaly incorrect.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Because your waves of ghetto kids are to busy killing people overseas in the name of Bush's 'War on Terror'.

They are killing waves on people they're just using different weapons and tactic. Drive by n' drugs.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[mr2mk1g 10]

Well they're not the same thing. You're taking a negative to try and prove a positive.

If he said all deprived people become suicide bombers then of course we need to examine why on earth he thinks that. If that were true all one would need to create a whole bunch of suicide bombers is a deprived neighborhood. As you point out there would be home grown US suicide bombers because there are deprived neighborhoods in the US.

He didn't say that though. He said people who are not in a deprived situation don't go on to become suicide bombers. That really is quite a different thing.

Now according to this statement people in deprived neighborhoods might go on to become suicide bombers or they might not. Thus US citizens in deprived neighborhoods might become suicide bombers - they might not.

As, according to his statement, they don't automatically become suicide bombers, there's no sense in your challenge to him that he show why they have not - he never said they would.

Conversely he has said that all you need to do to prevent someone becoming a suicide bomber is to ensure they're not in a deprived situation. Why don't you examine that? That’s what he said.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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But why don't we have waves of getto folks killing people over here?

He never said there would be Ron, go re-read his statement. He said: "no-one who feels good about their situation in life becomes a suicide bomber."

That is not the same as saying "everyone who feels bad about their situation ipso facto must become a suicide bomber".

This isn't just word games, the two statements are VERY different.

[dbattman 0]

You are correct- All people that practice Muslim/Islamic faith are not suicide bombers or even suicide bombers to be.

BUT, so far in recent history, all the suicide bombers have come from the radical Islamic sects. Should we be turning our focus on the Mosques and the Muslim community, or should we also be worrying about those darn subversive Wicans? Never know when they might start going off.

Let's also remember that the catalyst for this whole thing occured BEFORE the occupation.