ScottishJohn 25
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Well that sucks. Lessoned learned, don't run from the cops. I feel for the man's family and friends, but nonetheless, I still feel the police acted appropriately at the time given the info they had. Hindsight is always 20/20.
billvon 3,070
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> In fact, I say "great"! Don't give the terrorists a single inch.
Not only are we giving them miles, looks like we're actually helping them out. From the BBC:
---------------------------
Shot man not connected to bombing
A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was unconnected to the incidents, police have confirmed. The man, who died at Stockwell Tube on Friday, has been named by police as Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes, 27.
. . .
An earlier Scotland Yard statement read: "We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police on Friday 22nd July 2005, although he is still subject to formal identification.
"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005. . . This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility."
-----------------------------
>If that were to happen here in the US, the ACLU and bleeding hearts
> would be screaming at the top of their lungs for the heads of the
> officers involved.
Imagine! The ACLU getting mad when an innocent man is shot! Next thing you know, they will actually have the gall to ask why.
>all while forgetting what the "perp" was getting ready to do.
Which was apparently getting on the subway.
Not only are we giving them miles, looks like we're actually helping them out. From the BBC:
---------------------------
Shot man not connected to bombing
A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was unconnected to the incidents, police have confirmed. The man, who died at Stockwell Tube on Friday, has been named by police as Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes, 27.
. . .
An earlier Scotland Yard statement read: "We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police on Friday 22nd July 2005, although he is still subject to formal identification.
"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005. . . This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility."
-----------------------------
>If that were to happen here in the US, the ACLU and bleeding hearts
> would be screaming at the top of their lungs for the heads of the
> officers involved.
Imagine! The ACLU getting mad when an innocent man is shot! Next thing you know, they will actually have the gall to ask why.
>all while forgetting what the "perp" was getting ready to do.
Which was apparently getting on the subway.
QuoteIf that were to happen here in the US, the ACLU and bleeding hearts would be screaming at the top of their lungs for the heads of the officers involved.
QuoteImagine! The ACLU getting mad when an innocent man is shot! Next thing you know, they will actually have the gall to ask why.
Quoteall while forgetting what the "perp" was getting ready to do.
QuoteWhich was apparently getting on the subway.
All of your retorts, bill, are based singlehandly on hindsight. You argue only because you can using hindsight. Do you actually think the cops should have known all of this at the moment a frantic man ran from them straight for a tube, the very location several bombs had exploded over the last weeks.
tcnelson 1
it takes a large woman...and i mean large, to not be able to explain herself and quit, and then pop back up to thank the intellectually superior for explaining the original position that you failed to convey. bravo! i mean, try harder!
regardless, i'm done with this.
if you have anything remotely interesting to say to me regarding this pissing contest, don't post it, pm me so that i can respond in a fitting manner.
regardless, i'm done with this.
if you have anything remotely interesting to say to me regarding this pissing contest, don't post it, pm me so that i can respond in a fitting manner.
"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329
Gawain 0
QuoteQuoteIf that were to happen here in the US, the ACLU and bleeding hearts would be screaming at the top of their lungs for the heads of the officers involved.
QuoteImagine! The ACLU getting mad when an innocent man is shot! Next thing you know, they will actually have the gall to ask why.
Quoteall while forgetting what the "perp" was getting ready to do.
QuoteWhich was apparently getting on the subway.
All of your retorts, bill, are based singlehandly on hindsight. You argue only because you can using hindsight. Do you actually think the cops should have known all of this at the moment a frantic man ran from them straight for a tube, the very location several bombs had exploded over the last weeks.
Nevermind he was running from at least a half dozen cops yelling for him to stop, jumps a turnsdial to get into the subway, while the entire nation in on alert for a terrorist attack. While not a terrorist, this electrician, or whatever he was, wasn't too bright.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
billvon 3,070
>Nevermind he was running from at least a half dozen cops yelling for him to stop . . .
I suspect that if you were in a subway where a terrorist attack had just occurred, and a suspicious looking guy had pulled a gun, started running at you, and shouted in an unfamiliar language - you might run too.
>While not a terrorist, this electrician, or whatever he was, wasn't too bright.
I agree there. It is an understandable screwup, but a screwup it was, on both sides. It's not defensible as "not giving the terrorists an inch" or any such nonsense.
I suspect that if you were in a subway where a terrorist attack had just occurred, and a suspicious looking guy had pulled a gun, started running at you, and shouted in an unfamiliar language - you might run too.
>While not a terrorist, this electrician, or whatever he was, wasn't too bright.
I agree there. It is an understandable screwup, but a screwup it was, on both sides. It's not defensible as "not giving the terrorists an inch" or any such nonsense.
Quotea suspicious looking guy had pulled a gun, started running at you, and shouted in an unfamiliar language - you might run too.
Well, I'd imagine, although plain clothed, six police officers running in public with drawn guns does not exactly scream terrorists. This guy obviously lacked anything remotely close to common sense. That does not make his death right, but it does place his death mostly in his own hands. It's a tragedy, yes, but the police cannot be blamed for their actions, especially following the recent past. This man should have done the smart thing, stopped and raised his hands. That's all he needed to do. Instead he led police on an incredibly suspicious chase. Sorry, but his actions led to his own death. Tragic, but not by much fault of the police.
billvon 3,070
>Well, I'd imagine, although plain clothed, six police officers running
>in public with drawn guns does not exactly scream terrorists.
That's easy to say sitting in front of a computer. I suspect that if you were in a foreign country (one where you _knew_ people killed civilians) already nervous because of how everyone was giving you the evil eye, and had a guy draw a gun, yell at you in a foreign language, and run at you, you might not have the same reaction.
Reverse the situation. You are in Miami, in a place that's known for gang violence. A dozen people have already looked at you and turned and walked the other way for some reason. A man in shabby clothing pulls a gun, runs in your direction, and yells in Spanish. Do you:
a) run, or
b) assume he's a cop speaking Spanish because most people there speak Spanish, put your hands up and just stand there?
>in public with drawn guns does not exactly scream terrorists.
That's easy to say sitting in front of a computer. I suspect that if you were in a foreign country (one where you _knew_ people killed civilians) already nervous because of how everyone was giving you the evil eye, and had a guy draw a gun, yell at you in a foreign language, and run at you, you might not have the same reaction.
Reverse the situation. You are in Miami, in a place that's known for gang violence. A dozen people have already looked at you and turned and walked the other way for some reason. A man in shabby clothing pulls a gun, runs in your direction, and yells in Spanish. Do you:
a) run, or
b) assume he's a cop speaking Spanish because most people there speak Spanish, put your hands up and just stand there?
Gawain 0
Quote>Nevermind he was running from at least a half dozen cops yelling for him to stop . . .
I suspect that if you were in a subway where a terrorist attack had just occurred, and a suspicious looking guy had pulled a gun, started running at you, and shouted in an unfamiliar language - you might run too.
>While not a terrorist, this electrician, or whatever he was, wasn't too bright.
I agree there. It is an understandable screwup, but a screwup it was, on both sides. It's not defensible as "not giving the terrorists an inch" or any such nonsense.
BBC is reporting that it was up to 20 plain clothed policemen. According to the timeline on http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4712061.stm, Mr. de Menezes:
1. Leaves his house under surveillance.
2. Arrives at Stockwell Station, and jumps the ticket barrier
3. He ran down the escalator after being approached by up to 20 plain clothed policemen
4. After apparent refusal to obey police instructions, he boards a train and is then shot
I don't buy it for a minute that this guy didn't understand. He'd been living in the UK for three years and had to understand basic english like: "STOP" and "POLICE"
Not only do I give the police a pass, I think it proves their SOPs work. They did what they had to do based on the informatin they had to work with.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Gawain 0
QuoteReverse the situation. You are in Miami, in a place that's known for gang violence. A dozen people have already looked at you and turned and walked the other way for some reason. A man in shabby clothing pulls a gun, runs in your direction, and yells in Spanish. Do you:
a) run, or
b) assume he's a cop speaking Spanish because most people there speak Spanish, put your hands up and just stand there?
If I hear him yelling in Spanish: "Policia!!" "Pare!", I probably wouldn't understand "pare" but I'd sure understand "Policia".
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
tigra 0
I explained my position very clearly. Bill put it terms that a 5 year old could understand. I see you got it then.
I am more afraid of the cops than criminals any day of the week. But then again, innocent and guilty people are murdered by the police here in America every day. I do not think the English people are accustomed to the ideals of American police tactics, so the Brits are probably outraged. Could you imagine a moment of public silence for anyone accidently killed by the cops here in US? Instead the cop gets a paid vacation called administrative leave!
"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"
"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"
billvon 3,070
>BBC is reporting that it was up to 20 plain clothed policemen.
Sure, but odds are it started with one.
>I don't buy it for a minute that this guy didn't understand. He'd been
> living in the UK for three years and had to understand basic english
> like: "STOP" and "POLICE"
I know people here who have been living in the US for ten years and don't understand english. It is not universal by any means. I have no reason to believe the UK is any different. Indeed, during the time I spent in London I found it almost as diverse as NYC, where english is often not the primary language of a community.
>Not only do I give the police a pass, I think it proves their SOPs
>work.
Hmm. I certainly don't think that cops shooting innocent people in the head is a good thing. I don't think the cops who did this should "go down" or anything, but it is a huge wake-up call for the people who came up with the procedures on how to deal with 'suspicious people.'
Sure, but odds are it started with one.
>I don't buy it for a minute that this guy didn't understand. He'd been
> living in the UK for three years and had to understand basic english
> like: "STOP" and "POLICE"
I know people here who have been living in the US for ten years and don't understand english. It is not universal by any means. I have no reason to believe the UK is any different. Indeed, during the time I spent in London I found it almost as diverse as NYC, where english is often not the primary language of a community.
>Not only do I give the police a pass, I think it proves their SOPs
>work.
Hmm. I certainly don't think that cops shooting innocent people in the head is a good thing. I don't think the cops who did this should "go down" or anything, but it is a huge wake-up call for the people who came up with the procedures on how to deal with 'suspicious people.'
tbrown 26
QuoteWell that sucks. Lessoned learned, don't run from the cops. I feel for the man's family and friends, but nonetheless, I still feel the police acted appropriately at the time given the info they had. Hindsight is always 20/20.
It's not just hindsight though. The London Police have had decades of experience with bombings in the city during the No. Ireland "Troubles". At the height of the Troubles, the IRA was nervy enough to even launch a mortar attack on 10 Downing St (sort of a shame they didn't get Maggie Thatcher though...).
One of the things the cops should've learned from those years is that shooting people isn't effective when it only makes martyrs of them. What actually stopped the IRA was hanging out all those cameras all over town. The IRA got tired of watching themselves on TV in courtrooms in front of pissed off juries and they gave up on it.
Now there are differences with these Muslim guys. Unlike the IRA, they're suicide bombers, while the IRA would detonate stuff with timers or remote control. But again you're dealing with people who are bent on becoming martyrs anyway, so what do they care if they get shot ?
The cops have a real point that they're dealing with a suspect who only needs to push a button, or even take a finger OFF a button they've already pushed. It's a situation where shooting to kill MAY be warranted.
But let's look at what happened. They had the guy subdued and they killed him anyway. Even if he was a bomber, shooting him may not have prevented him from exploding on the platform anyway. And as it is now, the government of Brazil has formally requested the British government to please explain themselves - which any government, including ours (I hope...) would do if their police killed an unarmed citizen.
There's no bleeding heart here, just seriously questioning if this is accomplishing what it's supposed to. I would hate like hell to be a non-white person living in London these days, I'd be scared shitless. If the Muslims don't get you, the cops will is what I'd be thinking.
Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !
You made some good point which I do agree with. However...
If you're scared of the cops killing you, which sure, I guess could be valid if you were running from them. That's the point, just don't mess with the cops/run from them and you're chances are a whole lot better. Of course the cops need to be careful of situations like this that happened, but nonetheless, given the info they had at the time, they followed their SOPs flawlessly. No SOP is perfect of course, but for now, it's the best they got and seems to work well enough...except for the case when an innocent guy runs from 20 cops even though they're yelling stop. In that case, I suppose the SOP doesn't work. But hey, that's not the cops' fault.
By the way, not all of that directed at you tbrown, considering I agreed with a good amount of what you said. Just piggybacking off that last sentence
QuoteIf the Muslims don't get you, the cops will is what I'd be thinking.
If you're scared of the cops killing you, which sure, I guess could be valid if you were running from them. That's the point, just don't mess with the cops/run from them and you're chances are a whole lot better. Of course the cops need to be careful of situations like this that happened, but nonetheless, given the info they had at the time, they followed their SOPs flawlessly. No SOP is perfect of course, but for now, it's the best they got and seems to work well enough...except for the case when an innocent guy runs from 20 cops even though they're yelling stop. In that case, I suppose the SOP doesn't work. But hey, that's not the cops' fault.
By the way, not all of that directed at you tbrown, considering I agreed with a good amount of what you said. Just piggybacking off that last sentence
It's not legal but the don't shoot you for it.
If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers
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