R.I.P. 10,000 Indonesian Christians 1998-2003

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

I have provided factual examples.

As did Mikkey. Yet you still want to distort the facts and make it out to be Muslim v. Christian. On small isolated scales, this black and white mentality may be justified, but to apply it to a macro scale is absurd.

You dismissed his posts because they didn't say what you wanted them to say.

Islam and Christianity both teach peace. Anyone who is using either religion to justify violence does not have a thorough understanding of that religion. Referring to those violence inciting fundamentalists as Christians or Muslims is a severe distortion of the definition of those terms.

The world is not black and white.

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

Quote

As did Mikkey.

Nope. He didn't provide a single fact on-point.

Quote

Yet you still want to distort the facts and make it out to be Muslim v. Christian. On small isolated scales, this black and white mentality may be justified, but to apply it to a macro scale is absurd.

I distorted no fact, I did present the facts in respect of Muslim on Christian violence. Nobody has presented analogous facts of Christian on Muslim violence for comparison. Thus far nobody has presented contra-examples, show the Christian who has beheaded Indonesian Muslim schoolchildren - that's what I requested.

Quote

You dismissed his posts because they didn't say what you wanted them to say.

And each of you conveniently ignores the focus of this thread.

Quote

Islam and Christianity both teach peace. Anyone who is using either religion to justify violence does not have a thorough understanding of that religion. Referring to those violence inciting fundamentalists as Christians or Muslims is a severe distortion of the definition of those terms.

It's not the teaching per se which causes atrocity, it's deliberate actions on the part of thinking human beings, which you defend.

Quote

The world is not black and white.

Show me where I said this, they're your words not mine.


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

Nope. He didn't provide a single fact on-point.

Incorrect. Heres an example:

Quote

But in April 2004, more than 40 people died in clashes sparked by an illegal rally by a Christian gang in Ambon.

Quote

I distorted no fact, I did present the facts in respect of Muslim on Christian violence. Nobody has presented analogous facts of Christian on Muslim violence for comparison. Thus far nobody has presented contra-examples, show the Christian who has beheaded Indonesian Muslim schoolchildren - that's what I requested.

You are distorting the facts by making it out to be a Muslim vs. Christian conflict. There is also Muslim vs. Muslim violence, so it seems more reasonable to conclude that there is equal opportunity violence. Mikkey also presented enough information to suggest it would not be an unreasonable hypothesis that much of the violence is political in motivation, and not religious.

Quote

And each of you conveniently ignores the focus of this thread.

Are you referring to a five year window in a 1400 year coexistence of the two religions? Be realistic.

Quote

It's not the teaching per se which causes atrocity, it's deliberate actions on the part of thinking human beings, which you defend.

I have not defended violence by anybody. I think your dichotomy is incorrect. No more no less.

Quote

Quote

The world is not black and white.

Show me where I said this, they're your words not mine.

You didn't say it. I did. You are trying to jump to the conclusion that every time there is a violent interaction between a Muslim and a Christian, that violence is motivated by religion. You completely ignore other social and political factors, as well as the intraethnic violence. Taking such things into consideration illuminates the error of your dichotomy.

[mikkey 0]

One thing is clear. You have no fucking idea what is going on Indonesia, the history of the place and the problems of the country which can not be simplified into a Muslims against Christian context (and yes there are problems of increased Muslim radicalism fuelled by Islamic extremists). The problems are - if you want to simplify it - basically social and result in communities turning on each other. One of the key issues being the huge diversity of ethnic groups and social groups (from urban highly educated elite to former head hunters on Borneo).

You just apply a lot of bravado and a few articles you can find.

As I said, no wonder that so many Americans including your President have no fucking idea how to approach those enormously complex issues around the world. The only way you can look at a problem is a black hat / white hat mentality and clearly not interested in understanding the “details”.

PS: Ever wondered why the US got is so wrong in their anticipation and management of post-war Iraq? Lack of understanding the history, the culture/mentality and the diversity of the place.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

Accepting for the sake of argument that everything you say is true I renew my invitation that any poster here provide examples of Indonesian Christians beheading and bombing Indonesian Muslims.

List these events please, all of them you know, or post to a thread of your own devise.


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[cam 0]

thanks Mikkey for being a well-informed voice..

The original press report posted may or may not be 'factual' but it is completely one-sided. There is a lot more to sectarian violence in Indonesia. I'm not interested in the challenge put forward by sen.blu, because I see it as pointless. that kind of point-scoring is completely irrelevant for trying to understand the causes of violence there. but, as it happens, the violence has gone both ways (e.g. some of the Dayaks involved in beheadings of Madurese (Muslim) transmigrants as mentioned by Mikkey identify as Christians. but that is really beside the point, the conflict there has been driven by years of corrupt and stupid government policy, massive resource exploitation and land grabs. the conflift in the Malukus has also involved killings on both sides of the sectarian line.)
if anyone is interested in knowing more about the conflicts in Indonesia (I doubt sen. b is) I'd recommend the highly credible and impartial reports of the international crisis group. www.crisisgroup.org

[tso-d_chris 0]

www.crisisgroup.org

I made it clicky for you.

For Great Deals on Gear

[ViperPilot 0]

***Islam and Christianity both teach peace***

I looked into some versus out of the Qaran....

2:244 - Kill in God's sake, and know that God is listening

Hmmm, well it's telling to kill in the name of God...not too peaceful if you ask me.

9:29 - Kill those who do not believe with God and nor Resurrection Day

Again, if you don't believe in God like the Qaran says, every Muslim has a duty to kill you.

47:4 - If you encounter those who have rejected, then strike their formations until you overcome them

Wage war against the enemy if they don't see it your way.

9:5 - You may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them,and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point.

If they repent, and hold the contact-method, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone.

Go and kill those who are going against what is set forth. But if they repent, then let them go.

Point being, the Qaran preaches violence. It blatantly says kill those who do not believe, who do not follow, etc. Of course millions of Muslims do not follow this. However, Jihadist use this as reasoning. I agree that the problems Indonesia face are multi-faceted, but at on at least a micro scale, there is a blatant violence problem stemming from some factions of Islam.

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

Quote

I agree that the problems Indonesia face are multi-faceted, but at on at least a micro scale, there is a blatant violence problem stemming from some factions of Islam.

Regrettably the singular Muslim response over time is blanket denial. "It's too complicated, you can't understand!"

Yet the surviving members of my family would not reside in North American but for Muslim genocide against Christians.

Like the Nazis, Muslims scapegoated the religion and economic success of another people (Armenians got retained to build the mosques for Muslims because Christians were cheaper and better, they only let off for a part of one day a week during a contract period and they could perform the geometry and maths directly).

The Christian Armenians, and their Slavic cousins, know what they must do to survive from now on. You others can play osterich and apologize for those who cannot even fathom why there could be a need to apologize for exterminating others who don’t perceive the same beliefs.

Good on ya attempting to reason with zombies. Your son or daughter, not mine.


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[cam 0]

thanks for making it clear that this thread isn't about the situation in Indonesia or anywhere else except for the space between your ears.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

thanks for making it clear that this thread isn't about the situation in Indonesia or anywhere else except for the space between your ears.

New here aren't you?

[mikkey 0]

OK - so you have a blind hatred of Muslims and just used anything you could find to propagate your view.

Interesting you mentioned the Nazis – you use the same technique to entice hatred against a religion as they did towards the Jews.

Maybe we should post a few pictures from the ethnic cleansing “Christians” did in Bosnia against Muslims? Interesting how crimes committed by Turks many decades ago are proof of how all Muslims want to kill Christians… Especially when Turkey probably is the most secular and democratic Muslim country today.

Anyway – pointless to debate with people who are directed by blind hatred.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

Accepting for the sake of argument that everything you say is true I renew my invitation that any poster here provide examples of Indonesian Christians beheading and bombing Indonesian Muslims.

List these events please, all of them you know, or post to a thread of your own devise.


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[mr2mk1g 10]

They're in the minority. (88% Muslim 3% Catholic).

Minorities rarely commit genocides - they just don't have the power. For example: Bratunac where the Christian majority tortured to death the minority 350 Muslim civilians or Srebrenica, where the majority Christians massacred the minority 7,079 Muslim civilians and buried them in mass graves.

[Erroll 80]

Quote

Please do so if you wish your position to be considered relevant in this thread.

Quote

Believe your own bullshit if you will, it's recognized as such by the rest of us.

May I respectfully suggest that you speak for yourself and let the rest of us speak for ourselves and decide for ourselves what is relevant or not.

For what it is worth, I think Mikkey's posts are, as always, well thought out, factual and appropriate.

[masterblaster72 0]

I think it's great to see such insight into a part of the world that most Americans are completely ignorant of. Refreshing, especially in light of the typical jingoistic arrogance/ignorance and France bashing that's all too common in this forum.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[masterblaster72 0]

I think it's about something bigger than that. Here's my take on it -- a global problem.

I remember Sen. Blutarsky posted another thread where he mentions the "Islamicisation" of Europe via integration of Turkey into the EU. I share the sentiment.

Did you know that the Italian government in previous years has FUNDED the building of mosques to accommodate the deluge of Muslim immigrants in Italy? Coincidentally, did you know that three years ago, the U.S. Treasury Department referred to Milan's main mosque and cultural centre as "the main al-Qaeda station house in Europe"?

Did you know Muslims have complained in certain Italian towns about the statues and art in the towns because they are offended by their Christian themes and have gone so far as to vandalize them? There was a case in Central Italy where a Muslim student took a school district to court over crucifixes in the classroom. She didn't win, not yet at least.

The arrest of terrorists who wanted to poison the water supply in Rome in late 2001, the arrest of Muslims in Rome linked with the London subway bombings...

I spoke with a man from Holland on a train a couple of years ago. He said that in his town Muslims are actively seeking to stop church bells from being rung. Yet the local community tolerates their five-time-per-day call to prayer. Then there's the brutal murder of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh....

These are just a couple of countries, and only a few examples.

The Europeans' tolerance coupled with their kindness and complacency has made this a pattern that, in my opinion, will lead to the destabilization of Europe in coming decades if not taken seriously enough.

I'm not going to go on about how violent a religion Islam is. Sufism is as peaceful as Buddhism, but unfortunately Sufis are a small minority. I do think there is a virulent sect of Islam that's responsible for a lot of the religious-driven violence and it's called Wahhabism. It's become a global problem, and unfortunately it is fed by poverty and ignorance, not easy problems to solve in places like Indonesia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[ViperPilot 0]

masterblaster has it right on. There's plenty of evidence to prove that Islam is an inheritantly intolerant and violent religion. Now, thank God (or Allah) that million of Muslims are good, decent people who do tollerate and don't condone violence. However, they are still not a reason to try and say that Islam is not, at the base, an intolerant and violent religion. Unfortunatley the group that follows those two sectors of Islam is growing rapidly out of control. How do we stop it?

[EricTheRed 0]

Quote

However, they are still not a reason to try and say that Islam is not, at the base, an intolerant and violent religion. Unfortunatley the group that follows those two sectors of Islam is growing rapidly out of control. How do we stop it?

The same way that we prevent overzealous christians from getting out of control. Through a solid seperation of church and state and by having very good public schools where kids are taught real facts, not religious myths.

illegible usually

[ViperPilot 0]

Exactly...but how well is that working throughout the world?

[mr2mk1g 10]

Pretty well most places... except for America and a few Islamic states.

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

"French Bashing" is practiced by Muslims in, of all places, France ...

France Is Burning

November 1, 2005: France is burning. For most of the last week, there have been nasty riots in the Parisian suburb of St Denis, complete with fires and many casualties. This area is home to about 500,000 Moslems. Many largely Moslem suburbs of Paris, and other large cities, have become no-go zones for the police, and anyone who is not of Middle Eastern origin. Over the last three decades, generous social benefits and immigration policies have left France with a Moslem population of some five million (about eight percent of the population.) High rise housing for them was built on the outskirts of major cities. Most of these Moslems did not try to assimilate, and by maintaining their old country culture and language, they made it more difficult for their kids to get jobs. Among the old school customs practiced is attacking, and even murdering, girls who do not conform to a “Moslem” style of behavior. While jobs may be lacking, crime and social welfare payments are not. So people can live without jobs, and make a little extra with some crime on the side. But when you have a lot of people participating in, or just condoning, criminal behavior, you have a very dangerous place for outsiders. Officially, the government condemns this sort of “profiling,” but a look at crime statistics shows that high rates of robbery, murder and rape tend to coincide with Moslem areas. There are unofficial maps on the Internet, where French citizens can check about where not to get lost the next time they go for a drive.

Meanwhile, the high crime rates in the Moslem neighborhoods has been spilling over into non-Moslem areas, and there has been a major outbreak of anti-Semitic attacks on Jews, and Jewish targets (synagogues, cemeteries, Etc.). It’s not only become embarrassing for the government, but it’s become a political issue. So the Interior Ministry has established special police units to try and reduce the crime rate in the Moslem areas. That has led to the recent rioting, arson, injuries, and advice by French traditionalists to just ignore the French Moslems. Leave them alone. Ignore them. Just like France has been doing for decades. Let the counter-terrorism police take care of any hotheads. But for the moment, the Interior Ministry is run by law-and-order types, and they are determined to at least own the streets in Moslem areas. So France burns.

Source: http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/pothot/articles/20051101.aspx


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[Wopelao 0]

Quote

thanks Mikkey for being a well-informed voice..

The original press report posted may or may not be 'factual' but it is completely one-sided. There is a lot more to sectarian violence in Indonesia. I'm not interested in the challenge put forward by sen.blu, because I see it as pointless. that kind of point-scoring is completely irrelevant for trying to understand the causes of violence there. but, as it happens, the violence has gone both ways (e.g. some of the Dayaks involved in beheadings of Madurese (Muslim) transmigrants as mentioned by Mikkey identify as Christians. but that is really beside the point, the conflict there has been driven by years of corrupt and stupid government policy, massive resource exploitation and land grabs. the conflift in the Malukus has also involved killings on both sides of the sectarian line.)
if anyone is interested in knowing more about the conflicts in Indonesia (I doubt sen. b is) I'd recommend the highly credible and impartial reports of the international crisis group. www.crisisgroup.org

My take is that Mikkey does not understand the context of Sen. Blutarsky. comment. The above reference on the Dayaks violence is that it was socially motivated, and he wants to find instances that violence was inspired by the act of intolerance from the Christians towards the muslim, as both parties (Mikkey and Sen. Blutarsky) recognize the muslim threat, and qualify it as religion based.

Still, Mikkey is not providing an example of reciprocity on Christians against muslims (based on religion mind you) in Indonesia.

[wmw999 2,446]

Quote

"French Bashing" is practiced by Muslims in, of all places, France ...

And "Muslim bashing" is practiced on dz.com. How? By cherry-picking the facts and stories. Treating the stories about Muslims/French/bad-guys-du-jour as representative of everyone, and the stories about Jews/Americans/good-guy-du-jour as aberrations is a really good way to foster stereotyping.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,991]

>France Is Burning

Wow! It's starting to sound like Portadown in Ireland during the Orange Men march.