Heaven vs Purgatory vs Hell

[pajarito 0]

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isn't there a 4th condition referred to as Limbo?
Heaven for good people
Hell for bad people
Purgatory as a repair center before going to heaven
Limbo for good people that don't meet the criteria (not baptized, etc)

and isn't there a 5th condition for souls that haven't lived a life yet?

I don't recall all the "theo"ry

Purgatory is not biblical for several reasons:
- Is not explicitly found in the Bible.
- It implies that the righteousness of Christ does not cleanse from all sin.
- It implies that justification is not by faith alone.
- It implies that there is something we must do in order to be cleansed of sin.

Most justification for it comes from extrabiblical teachings and not the Bible (e.g. Church Fathers, Apocrypha, and Biblical references to "fire & purification" which really need to be put in proper context).

[billvon 3,058]

>isn't there a 4th condition referred to as Limbo?
>Heaven for good people
>Hell for bad people
>Purgatory as a repair center before going to heaven

Depends on the particular sect of christianity. All the above are pretty popular except purgatory. Catholicism uses 1 Cor 3:15 as evidence of purgatory, although that version of it sounds pretty bad (flames and whatnot.)

>Limbo for good people that don't meet the criteria (not baptized, etc)

This was a sore point for a while, one still not fully resolved in Catholicism (for example.) Unbaptized children, people like Moses who were never baptized but surely 'deserving' etc had nowhere to go. St. Augustine believed unbaptized children went to hell but went to the nicest part of hell (i.e. the top circle of Dante's version of hell) Thomas Aquinas believed that limbo was a nicer place than hell, sort of a separate area. Pius IV went with limbo. Supposedly the Virgin Mary made a statement recently (1987) that aborted children end up in limbo.

Most protestants believe unbaptized children are not penalized thus. They also generally reject purgatory.

[livendive 8]

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I responded that I live every day with a good conscience, have no hate or anger in my heart, love unconditionally, forgive where appropriate, and ethics are in check, etc...so why won't I GO to Heaven? I feel that my God loves me unconditionally and doesn't judge as "they say" and he knows the true intentions of my heart which are good...why wouldn't he want me there?

Any god who would condemn me to eternal damnation because I wouldn't worship him isn't someone I'd want to spend eternity with anyhow.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Thunderbow 1]

I know I don't always agree with all that you say, but I will give you credit for more knowledge on a subject than a lot that post here. I also don't post much because I am not good a apologetics (which doesn't mean to apologize for something) or debating for that matter (which is what apologetics is mostly composed of). But.... I do know something about my Catholic religion.

Limbo has never been an official dogma. It has generally fallen out of acceptance.

Purgatory is based on the fact that Catholics believe that salvation is an ongoing thing in ones life. We all die with some sins that need resolving and since we also believe heaven is a place of purity, we need a place of purification which is Pugatory.

As far as living a good life, God has given us some rules to live by. Basically the ten commandments.
Combine two of these - Thou shall not put strange gods before Me and Thou shall keep holy the Sabbath and you have a problem especially for skydivers. These are the things that her parents are probably talking about.

Don't get me wrong, I would never say someone can't get to heaven. We can change and it could even be in that short time between a double mal and meeting mother earth. What a glorious thing that would be.

Jesus told a story about a farmer paying workers the same amount for working part of a day or the whole day. That was the point of the story.

You won't catch me spouting religion at the DZ but I do pray for everyone on the plane as climb to altitude. (Maybe a little more for me.)

Like I said, I don't post much so you probably won't hear back from me but this thread and those like it are probably the most important ones here. (Along with the physical rather than spriitual safety issues.)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

[Mockingbird 0]

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>Limbo for good people that don't meet the criteria (not baptized, etc)

This was a sore point for a while, one still not fully resolved in Catholicism (for example.) Unbaptized children, people like Moses who were never baptized but surely 'deserving' etc had nowhere to go. St. Augustine believed unbaptized children went to hell but went to the nicest part of hell (i.e. the top circle of Dante's version of hell) Thomas Aquinas believed that limbo was a nicer place than hell, sort of a separate area. Pius IV went with limbo. Supposedly the Virgin Mary made a statement recently (1987) that aborted children end up in limbo.

Most protestants believe unbaptized children are not penalized thus. They also generally reject purgatory.

Now, THIS is what I would consider the problem to be with religions... all the extra-biblical teachings that have evolved over time, obscuring the simple truths of the bible but assigned equal importance to the bible. This makes Christianity seem complicated... and as complex as U.S. tax laws.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Andrewwhyte 1]

The concept of purgatory is problematic in that it seems to imply a temporal element to the punishment phase.
Since heaven is eternal, it is not a place, but rather a state of being (remember your catechism all you catholics); there cannot be a waiting room containing temporal limits. The process of realizing your mistakes were in fact mistakes, and the regret that will inevitably accompany this is the condition (rather than the period) of purgatory.
Have you ever had an event in your life when you thought someone was being a prick towards you, maybe you even badmouthed them behind their back, only to find out later that they were actively guarding your back while you were fucking up? Remember how small you felt when you found out? Maybe it's like that.

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

Profound dialogue...thanks for your contribution

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[Trae 1]

My (Catholic) parents used to psycho-babble me on a Sunday night when I made it back from the DZ. I got to hear all the truisms I'd been fed since a child all over again and again.

They were so sure I was going to kill myself that I started wondering about the depth of their own faith.

Some time later after trying to sabotage my freedom (out of love for me?) for years I had to admit to myself that they needed the guidance of their religion because they had little faith ..even in their own son.

By enjoying the presence of a higher force in skydiving I found my faith in life.

Now my parents have learnt how to enjoy the life they have without forcing their children into religious slavery.

I know that our Gods and Goddesses are everywhere.

Feels good cause its real

Edited for the Jpg ( beauty still gets me right there)

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

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My (Catholic) parents used to psycho-babble me on a Sunday night when I made it back from the DZ. I got to hear all the truisms I'd been fed since a child all over again and again.

They were so sure I was going to kill myself that I started wondering about the depth of their own faith.

Some time later after trying to sabotage my freedom (out of love for me?) for years I had to admit to myself that they needed the guidance of their religion because they had little faith ..even in their own son.

By enjoying the presence of a higher force in skydiving I found my faith in life.

Now my parents have learnt how to enjoy the life they have without forcing their children into religious slavery.

I know that our Gods and Goddesses are everywhere.

Feels good cause its real

Edited for the Jpg ( beauty still gets me right there)

What is that pic of Trae?

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[Hackb431 0]

I don't have an answer for you I just wanted to trhown my thought on religion into the mix.

I think Heavan, Utopia, the After Life or whatever you want to call it is a central location. All the worlds religions, major followings and minor, are just seperate paths leading to the central location.

Live a good life with a genuine good heart and you will find yourself where you want to be.

But if you don't have the church's 10% donation available know that I will grant you forgivness for a simple jump ticket. (And I am not alking a hop N pop. I need one that goes all the way up. It's only fair that I get to go all the way up if you do!)

HackB A.K.A. "Puppy"

[Mockingbird 0]

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Purgatory is based on the fact that Catholics believe that salvation is an ongoing thing in ones life. We all die with some sins that need resolving and since we also believe heaven is a place of purity, we need a place of purification which is Pugatory.

None of the followers of Christ-- in his generation-- taught about a place where people go after death to be punished and cleansed until they're pure enough for heaven. In fact, this idea is diametrically opposed and inconsistent with the words of Christ and the teachings of his apostles (those who knew him and spread his teachings). If you want proof of this, I can list for you many references in the new testament about Christ taking all our sins and offenses upon himself when he was crucified. Salvation takes place at a moment in time; it isn't something that one attains to gradually: it is a Gift. Whether you refer to it as "salvation," "eternal life," "justification," "forgiveness", "redemption," "cleansing," "reconciliation," (and you only need to read the the book of Romans to see how all these terms are related and are part of the package, so to speak, in which His gift is given to us). Definitely, these aspects of the work He accomplished for us through his death and resurrection are ongoing in their scope. They are all part of a gift given at a point in time, yet lived out and enjoyed from then on. The idea of having to suffer for our sins at a future time is inconsistent with Christ's death FOR us.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[pajarito 0]

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I think Heavan, Utopia, the After Life or whatever you want to call it is a central location. All the worlds religions, major followings and minor, are just seperate paths leading to the central location.

Live a good life with a genuine good heart and you will find yourself where you want to be.

The teachings of many different religions contradict each other. How could they all simply be paths leading to the same destination? Does truth contradict itself?

- Buddhism (Pantheism) teaches that there is no personal God and everyone can reach Godlikeness on his own
- Islam teaches that Jesus was just a prophet and not the only way to God
- Christianity teaches that there is a personal God and that the only way to him is through Jesus

[Hackb431 0]

I am not an educated person when it comes to religion. For me it's just a feeling. That's why I usually avoid the subject.

HackB A.K.A. "Puppy"

[Trae 1]

The piccy is called Gladder (glass ladder ).

It is where I would like to live for a while.
The full size art work (it is CG) won a prize in an art show a year back and it still lifts me to the space where we're allowed to dream while awake.

The future is a big place ...CU there.

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

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The piccy is called Gladder (glass ladder ).

It is where I would like to live for a while.
The full size art work (it is CG) won a prize in an art show a year back and it still lifts me to the space where we're allowed to dream while awake.

The future is a big place ...CU there.

Very nice

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[rehmwa 2]

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Live a good life with a genuine good heart and you will find yourself where you want to be.

That and $20 will get me to 14,000 ft

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Trae 1]

In reply to 'very nice'

Very thank you

More pretty pwease ? religion and art can both be uplifting or..

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

Merde! On e va encore...my parents are STILL trying to get me to stop skydiving after the news about Kris...Un heure j'ai parlez tou le chose un fois...

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[tso-d_chris 0]

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I love my God everyday..in the shower, in the car, making coffee...my spirituality is EVERY DAY, ALL DAY...he is part of my EVERY DAY...I am who I am because I know he loves me and accepts me with all my faults. I just wish my parents understood it.

Forgive me for saying, but that is a very Taoist attitude to have.

For Great Deals on Gear

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

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I love my God everyday..in the shower, in the car, making coffee...my spirituality is EVERY DAY, ALL DAY...he is part of my EVERY DAY...I am who I am because I know he loves me and accepts me with all my faults. I just wish my parents understood it.

Forgive me for saying, but that is a very Taoist attitude to have.

I forgive yano really...you're you and I'm me

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[AlexCrowley 0]

http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/purgatory.htm

I thought this was pretty interesting.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.