rasmack 0 #1 August 5, 2005 Disclaimer: I am no christian, and you are not going to convert me. However I have a question for the christians here. I often hear people refer to the Bible as "the Word of God". Wherein lies the justification of this position? Anyone will know that the texts were written by men. We even refer to these men by name (John, Luke...). The biblical canon was not fixed for several centuries after Christ (Clicky). Again the compilation was made by men. Were each and everyone of these men a direct instrument of God, or were they acting within the limits of their fallacies? If they were all direct instruments of God, isn't it a huge leap of faith to also extend this assumption to include every translator who has ever worked on the bible? If they were acting as "mere mortals", can it then be said that the Bible is not the word of God and at best it is a "tainted" version? Is some parts of the Bible are tainted by human fallacies, how do you determine which parts a good and which are bad? This discussion is relevant both for the old and the new testament. A lot of texts never "made it" into the final version of the old testament. Actually the Book of Enoch is a pretty good read I should say that this question is heavily inspired by the thread on creationism. No hidden agenda here HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #2 August 5, 2005 From the "God is dead(Rant): "What I truly cannot fathom is that both believer and non-believer seem to insist in the integrity of the Bible. For the xtians it must be ABSOLUTELY FACTUALLY TRUE. For the non-believers any contradiction, regardless of triviality, makes the entire book null and void. Given the history of the KJV transaltion, the political history of the religion, the way the current selection of biblical books were chosen, I do not believe that a work that size is going to remain internally consistent at all times, but neither do I believe that it needs to be so. The catholic church knows that there is more to the Christian canon than the small fraction available within the Bible itself. Like most religions and cults - the Bible is the book for the uneducated and the neophyte, gaining wisdom within the discipline and attaining higher rank gets access to more of that religions mysteries. I really believe this is where the protestants got screwed out of a lot of knowledge and understanding, by rejecting catholicism they rejected a very large part of available christian wisdom and placed far too much emphasis on a book that is really just a primer and introduction to a much greater mystery. (disclaimer: I am not a christian) BTW the apologists 'answers to contradictions in the bible' are bogus, and I would be more than happy to debate each point when I have the time. As I said, I dont feel apologies are necessary anymore than I believe in a need for a 'perfect' bible. Start with Strong's Greek and Strongs Hebrew bible dictionaries and move forward:) In addition: http://www.av1611.org/kjv/kjvhist.html is a great article I've cited previously. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #3 August 5, 2005 Oh, I am actually not really interested in whether or not the Bible is the Word of God. I am merely wondering what the argument is and posing a few questions in that connection. I would simply like to hear from people who hold that firm believe how they "make it fit".HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #4 August 5, 2005 YES.....The King James version of God's WORD IS the definitive WORD of God from the first word in Genesis to the last word in Revelation. ALL others versions are perversions.... The King James was first published in London England, (the center of the world) in 1611. It was actually written by 41 authors over a 1500 years period, and God directed iot to come together and to be published in London. There is not a single word of the 728,391 words that is out of place. It is absolutely the most amazing book ever written, and as it says, "No prophecy of scripture was written through the thoughts of any man, but by Holy men, as they were directed by the Holy Spirit ofGod." If I was able to have a period of time to show you, I could prove exactly what I have said above is in fact, absolutely TRUE., beyond a shadow of a doubt. In these forums, I notice that most of the contradictory submissions are from people who have never read much or any of it, and certainly do not understand it. Bill Cole Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #5 August 5, 2005 Chuteless, I would very much like to hear about it. I studied to be a priest for 2 years, so feel I have a little understanding of the source material. I don't feel I have an axe to grind with any church or religion and the subject is still one that I have an interest in. I'd also be interested in your thoughts regarding the initial compilation of the Bible, your feelings on the timeline of its creation, the eventual inclusion of Acts and the somewhat controversial inclusion of Revelations some 200 years later. In addition, you've said you consider the KJV the absolute word of god (at least, you said that jokingly at first and then said you do believe that), given that going through Strongs resources it is apparent that the translations created some oversimplifications within the texts (usage of the word 'Faith' has always troubled me and actually led me to researching with Strongs). Also, the history of the KJV translation was a bit of a mish mash, and does include errors, non-believers had a hand in it's translation and disagreements were resolved by committee. Other than a 'the miracle of God', could you talk a little about how this fits in with your belief that the KJV is the definitive version? Thanks. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #6 August 5, 2005 QuoteOh, I am actually not really interested in whether or not the Bible is the Word of God. This says a lot. The insincerity of your question doesn't really deserve a sincere response. Your motive appears to be to try and discredit and hurt others rather than search for truth. However... QuoteI often hear people refer to the Bible as "the Word of God". Wherein lies the justification of this position? Anyone will know that the texts were written by men. We even refer to these men by name (John, Luke...). The biblical canon was not fixed for several centuries after Christ (Clicky). Again the compilation was made by men. Were each and everyone of these men a direct instrument of God, or were they acting within the limits of their fallacies? The Bible claims to be the Word of God (2 Tim. 3:16) The Bible also proves itself to be the Word of God primarily through fulfilled prophesies. Old & New Testaments both point to one person, Jesus. - Born of the seed of the woman (Gen. 3:15, Matt. 1:20) - Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14, Matt. 1:18,25) - Son of God (Psalm 2:7, Matt. 3:15) - Seed of Abraham (Gen. 22:18, Matt. 1:1) - Son of Isaac (Gen. 21:12, Luke 3:23 – 34) - House of David (Jer. 23:1, Luke 3:23 – 31) - Born at Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matt. 2:1) - He shall be a prophet (Deut. 18:18, Matt. 21:11) - He shall be a priest (Psalm 110:4, Heb. 3:1, Heb. 5:5 – 6) - He shall be a king (Psalm 2:6, Matt. 27:37) - He shall judge (Isaiah 33:22, John 5:30 - He would be preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3, Matt. 3:1 – 2) - Rejected by his own people (Isaiah 53:3, John 7:5, John 7:48) - His side pierced (Zech. 12:10, John 19:34) - Crucifixion (Psalm 22:1, Psalm 22:11 – 18, Luke 23:33, John 19:33, John 19:23 – 24) The odds against one person fulfilling just the ones listed above are astronomical. The Bible is a collection of 66 books written by about 40 authors, over about 1600 years, on three continents, in three languages. It is very unlikely that all the books would fit together as they do, have been preserved in the manner in which they have, have been translated into as many languages as they have (rare), and have been accepted by so many across the globe for as long as they have. For starters... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #7 August 5, 2005 Thanks for the questions. At least yours is straightforward and much to the point. I have been stuydying the King james and comparing it to some of the more "modern' perversions, for over 30 years, and what I said is true, and I have NEVER said "jokingly" that it is the WORD of God, because I don't joke about anything so serious. The study I have been working on ( somtimes as long as 13 hrs a day) was one which my father began and carried out for at least 30 yrs. When he died in 1961, I took up where he had left off, and have multiplied his findings by about 1000. It would be impossible to provide a printout on DZ.com, as it would tie up one thread for several years ( I dont think Sangiro would approve), but if you really are serious, I would be willing to take whatever time necessary to show you one on one....anytime. It is quite complicated, but is complete truth, provable in every sense, and cannot be denied by anyone with a modicum of intelligence. I have never considered thge KJV a bit of a mish mash, and I have no doubts that "MAYBE" non believers had a hand in working for King james who authorized that compilation, but even IF that WAS correct, they too were guided by the hand of God in every word they printed. God IS in charge....and the final Authorized King James Bible has the prints of God's hands on it from cover to cover.....without error, and without a single letter being out of place. That is absolutely totally PROVABLE. Anytime you want to see for yourself, I will gladly show you what ALL the churches don't even have a clue ablout. Blessings on you for your interest Bill Cole edit: The offer is open to anyone else who is interested enough Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #8 August 5, 2005 Actually I'd love to read that! So, this book is using KJV as the primary source and refutes modern versions? How did your father, and now yourself, deal with words that are famously mistranslated? The most common I can think of would be the use of the word witch rather than poisoner "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". Knowing that the compilers of the KJV used every available source, including other contemparary english translations, plus the earliest versions of the bible availabe in a somewhat hotchpotch manner (as admitted by the gentlemen involved in the task of translation), and I say the following with the greatest respect and no sarcasm, but you see the KJV of the bible as God's method of editing and revising his original? This is a sticky place to be simply because we're back into mental mapping and linguistics as a way to describe reality. For example, as I said previously, there are two main greek roots for the english translation of faith (the bible uses 7 different greek words for the english faith - check out Strongs Greek). While both greek words are similar, both have different meanings, but both translate to the english word Faith - yet different contexts, which are lost on paper and subtly alter the intent of the passage, in fact I have direct experience of a sermon using one of these passages and taking it slightly out of context. The sermon was fine, yet the message warped because of this error. A simple example would be when we see languages where certain phonics do not exist in another language., illustrated by Germans substituting V for W, or japanese L for R. As I've said, it puzzles me that there is a certain sect of christianity that needs the KJV to be the absolute word of God, the same way it puzzles me that some churches only consider The Bible to be the only christian holy scripture. But then I never can understand the 'God doesnt talk to people directly anymore' christians either (simply put, my personal philosophy is 'if your deity can't speak to you directly he's probably dead'). But I'm getting off topic. Again, I ask everything above in a sincere desire to share information and learn, as I do not consider myself an expert on scripture, not to be sarcastic or insult anyones beliefs. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #9 August 5, 2005 QuoteIf they were all direct instruments of God, isn't it a huge leap of faith to also extend this assumption to include every translator who has ever worked on the bible? If they were acting as "mere mortals", can it then be said that the Bible is not the word of God and at best it is a "tainted" version? Is some parts of the Bible are tainted by human fallacies, how do you determine which parts a good and which are bad? Is the Bible Reliable? QuoteThe fact is that there are indeed copyist errors on the biblical documents and they account for many alleged contradictions. Remember, it is the autographs (original writings) that are inspired and inerrant, not the copies. The copies we have now are copies of inspired documents. The copies are not themselves "inspired"; that is, they have no guarantee of being 100% textually pure. Does this then mean that we can't trust the Bible? Not at all. The copies are so accurate that all of the biblical documents are 98.5% textually pure. The 1.5% that is in question is mainly nothing more than spelling errors and occasional word omissions like the words "the", "but", etc. This reduces any serious textual issues to a fraction of the 1.5% and none of these copying errors affects doctrinal truths. Biblical Manuscript Evidence, Ancient Versions, & Patristic Quotations (Church Fathers) QuoteThe Biblical Manuscript Evidence. The manuscript evidence for the New Testament is stunning by comparison. The most recent count (1980) shows 5,366 separate Greek manuscripts. These are represented by early fragments, uncial codices (manuscripts written in all uppercase Greek letters and bound together in book form), and minuscules (manuscripts written in lowercase Greek letters).4 Among the nearly 3,000 minuscule fragments are 34 complete New Testaments dating from the ninth to the fifteenth centuries AD.5 Uncial manuscripts providing virtually complete New Testaments date back to the fourth century and earlier. Codex Sinaiticus is dated c. AD 340.6 The nearly complete Codex Vaticanus is the oldest, dated c. AD 325–50.7 Codex Alexandrinus contains the whole Old Testament and a nearly complete New Testament and dates from the late fourth century to the early fifth century. The most fascinating evidence comes from the fragments. The Chester Beatty Papyri (papyri are manuscripts written on paperlike material made from papyrus reeds) contain most of the New Testament and are dated mid-third century.8 The Bodmer Papyri II collection includes the first fourteen chapters of the Gospel of John and much of the last seven chapters. It dates from AD 200 or earlier.9 The most amazing find of all, however, is a small portion of John 18:31–33, discovered in Egypt. Known as the John Rylands Papyri and barely three inches square, it represents the earliest known copy of any part of the New Testament. The papyri is dated on paleographical grounds at AD 117–38 (though it may be even earlier).10 Keep in mind that most papyri are fragmentary and only about 50 manuscripts contain the entire New Testament. The manuscript evidence is nevertheless exceedingly rich, especially when compared to other works of antiquity. Ancient Versions and Patristic Quotations. The accuracy of the manuscripts can also be checked by comparing them with two other groups of texts known as the ancient versions and the patristic quotations. By the third and fourth centuries the New Testament had been translated into several languages, including Latin, Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, and Georgian. Translations of the Greek manuscripts (called versions) help modern-day scholars answer questions about the underlying Greek manuscripts. In addition, there are ancient extrabiblical sources — catechisms, lectionaries, and quotes from the church Fathers — that contain large portions of Scripture. Biblical authority Bruce Metzger notes, “If all other sources for our knowledge of the text of the New Testament were destroyed, [the patristic quotations] would be sufficient alone for the reconstruction of practically the entire New Testament.”11 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #10 August 5, 2005 QuoteYES.....The King James version of God's WORD IS the definitive WORD of God from the first word in Genesis to the last word in Revelation. ALL others versions are perversions.... I don't mean to be disrespectful. I have studied different religions for many years. I am curious what gives the KJV's Old Testament more credibility than the Torah, upon which it is based, and which significantly predates the KJV. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #11 August 5, 2005 QuoteThis says a lot. The insincerity of your question doesn't really deserve a sincere response. Your motive appears to be to try and discredit and hurt others rather than search for truth. However... Where do you read that?!? I merely meant that my intention was not to have people arguing over whether or not this was the case. I simply wished to understand the logic behind this. I have no intention of trying to "refute" any motivations. I simply want to hear them. You have kindly supplied me with some references, which I will have a look at (any suggestions for a good searchable online bible?). Thank you very much. Edit: Damn, you're a fast poster. HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #12 August 5, 2005 QuoteYou have kindly supplied me with some references, which I will have a look at (any suggestions for a good searchable online bible?). Thank you very much. Sorry if I misjudged. Bible Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #13 August 5, 2005 http://bible.crosswalk.com/ Links to KJV and Strongs concordance plus a bunch of other cool stuff. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #14 August 5, 2005 QuoteYES.....The King James version of God's WORD IS the definitive WORD of God from the first word in Genesis to the last word in Revelation. ALL others versions are perversions.... Are you discerning between English versions only, or are you saying that a "correct" bible only exists in English? Could you perhaps be persuaded to make a short summary of your ideas? For the record I hope this does not turn into an argumentative thread. The quality of arguments and the care with which they are presented tend go down as frequency of people calling each other asshats goes up.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #15 August 5, 2005 I really like that word... "Asshat" I want to say it again... "Asshat"... "Asshat"... "Asshat" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #16 August 5, 2005 What gives the King James version more credibility than the Torah.... The Torah is a part of the King james, and covers the initial things from creation. Although there are many other books that come after the Torah ( Ezekiel, Daniel, Malachi etc, most of those are the prophetic books, but are still acceptable to the Israeli people (Jews). The New Testament covers from Christ to the Revelations of St John the Divine, which is about the end days, even the days in which we are living now. Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah also cover these days, but rather as the "TYPE" while the New Testament is covering the same periods of time as the "ANTI-TYPE" Things written about the USA, England, and countries that exist NOW, could only have been written of by the use of metaphors, because those countries were not know in Biblical times by their present names. An Example: Daniel Chapter 7,verse 2 to 7 Daniel saw four great beasts coming up from out of the sea...this is the sea of humanity..not the sea of water. The first beast was the LION, England, and it had EAGLE'S wings, the USA, which grew out of the back of British rule in 1776. And then a most interesting part. Daniel beheld until the eagle's wings were plucked. The USA will be brought down, and without its wings, the "EAGLE" canot attack or defend itself. The next beast is the BEAR Russia. The next beast is the Leopard, France, and the final and greatest and most fearful beast is the Dragon ....CHINA, who shortly will rule the world.....and with an iron fist. North Korea will also wipe out three nations with nuclear weapons...most probably Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia. They will then control the oil. If you continue on reading that same chapter, you will see Daniel says that these four great beasts are four great kings...or kingdoms. These are the same four great beasts that are also mentioned in the end days, Revelation Chapter 13, verse 2, but notice...the eagle is no longer mentioned, for its wings had been plucked before the end times spoken off in Revelation. We are in the end times NOW....the plucking of the eagle's wings will take place , (most likely in 2006). Even Israeli intelligence and the CIA have concluded that there will be a nuclear attack on at least one of them sometime between 2005 and 2007. I hope that helps to clear up your question. The Torah is the mainstay of the Jewish people, because they fail to recognize Jesus Christ, and therefore wont accept the New Testament. Christ is the stumblingblock of their iniquity. They will recognize him sooner than they think...and will see the nail holes in his hands, and finally realize, they did in fact crucify the King of Kings...the Lord of Lords..The messiah. Isnt it interesting...Jesus Christ is the dividing of ALL time on earth, for all history is recognized as B.C. (Before Christ) and A.D. (Anno Domini....In the year of our Lord). The only two countries that, while still using the Gregorian calendar for everyday use, but have their own dating system are Israel...2006 is equal 5766, and China 2006 is equal to 4703) Christ is the MIDST of the world, he is the mediator BETWEEN God and Man. He IS the Son of GOD...He created this world. He is God. Take care Bill Cole Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #17 August 5, 2005 Alex....I use three King James Bibles and the Strongs concordance every day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #18 August 5, 2005 That's an interesting take on Daniel & Revelation. Disclaimer: I'm quite sure you've studied this stuff a whole lot more than me. Just putting in my 2 cents. I'm not sure, however, that anyone can say with certainty the meaning of this metaphorical description. Maybe you’re right. Maybe you’re not. The important thing is what people do in preparation for whatever it means exactly. Cuz something bad is coming down the pipe, if you know what I mean. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #19 August 5, 2005 No, it's not. It was human hands that wrote the book (hence, its contradictions.) While it may be a very useful guide for living for some (I like seeing my nephew learn some very valuable lessons from it), it is still a book written by humans. Humans are flawed.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #20 August 5, 2005 Is anyone else depressed that they're not on the way to the WFFC right now? My Dad & Uncle left yesterday for IL. I went last year but can't this year. I'm bummed out bad... I think I'll start drinking heavily to simulate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #21 August 5, 2005 I think you must be the most arrogant person on this forum. You seem to think you have all the answers and that everyone else is wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #22 August 5, 2005 QuoteNo, it's not. It was human hands that wrote the book (hence, its contradictions.) While it may be a very useful guide for living for some (I like seeing my nephew learn some very valuable lessons from it), it is still a book written by humans. Humans are flawed. Have you read my posts above? It touches on your point. There are mistakes within the copies & translations. There's no evidence to indicate that they were put there with mal-intent. Also, none present affect the core doctrine. It also only affects an extremely small percentage of the entire text. The Bible is one of the absolute best preserved texts in history. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #23 August 5, 2005 Well, I'm sitting in Switzerland so I think I'll skip it It is the end of the working day here, so HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #24 August 5, 2005 QuoteWell, I'm sitting in Switzerland so I think I'll skip it It is the end of the working day here, so Right on! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #25 August 5, 2005 of course it isnt.. it is a work of religious literature like many thousands of others, nothing more.. it codifies one cultures beliefs about divinity, but it is not "The One Sole Source of Truth and Faith" from Divinity... if it were it wouldnt have such silly culture assumptions and stone age mistakes about the nature of the universe... God is a bit brighter than the writers of the OT... there is more to the nature of God than a single cultures vision of her.. MUCH more... but if it makes you feel better to cuddle up to your hebrew text and believe that your following the "Only True Path" (tm) ... whatever helps you sleep at night... just be aware that God isnt so limited or limiting as your book (and the culture that created it) wants you to believe.. One rule for Lion and Lamb is oppression -W.Blake..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
