Is the Bible the Word of God?

[AlexCrowley 0]

parajito, I mean absolutely no disrespect to your beliefs or the value of your faith (or even really care if your idea of God does or does not exist), but my problem with your argument is that it's totally illogical. Neither do I believe that it 'simply requires faith' to believe it.

My argument here is with the P and S or MAPS, in otherwords, not whether the Bible is true, but how it's believers defend its truth.

That was the point of the final paragraph:"
Many cults do this very thing (e.g. Jehovah’s Witnesses & Mormons). You’re absolutely correct in saying that your prophesy doesn’t mean a damn thing unless it can be shown to have come into fulfillment. The “failed” prophesy of the Watchtower Organization is a huge example of why it is not to be trusted and is not “of God.” "

To anyone outside of your belief system the Bible is exactly the same thing. The book holds no validity for millions of people around the world, it's teachings hold no spiritual truth. I realize that this causes the average Xtian to have varying reactions including denial.

Belief is a very powerful thing that can blind us to logic. Very simply, Christianity, like any other religion you can use as an example, is self contained and defends its own teachings to create its own structure.

To say that one testament backs up another testament is not proof of anything more than doctrinal consistency - and even then its merely a subset of available books that were chosen for the specific purpose of providing a clear and simple handbook for that particular belief.

A clear example of this is to stand outside on a good day and say 'the sky is blue'. you look up, you see the sky, it's blue (unless you're color blind - the fact you may see 'red' and i may see 'blue' dont matter, its still obviously the label you were given as a child for the color of the sky). Now imagine never having seen the sky and having to use your sense of smell to guess the color? It would require some faith and to be convinced it would need some leaping thru logical hoops 'its green because it tastes like trumpet solo' and that pretty much sums up my take on religion and its ability to recognize it's own (in my opinion) perfectly acceptable imperfections and contradictions.

Overall Bible message? I think that's best summed up by James Dalton, Head Bouncer Double Deuce Club regarding the OT "If somebody gets in your face, I want you to be nice. Ask him to walk. Be nice. If he won't walk, walk him. But be nice. If you can't walk him, one of the others will help you, and you'll both be nice." His take on the NT is similar "If someone gets in your face, be nice. If they punch you in the face, be nice."

The rest of the stuff is fine.

Now the big question is. If the books so big on prophecy that is SO clear - 2 part question....

1. Why was he not recognized by more Jews during his lifetime (a biblical passage explaining how the savior was going to be ignored is NOT an answer, the question is regarding prophecy and how obvious it is).

2. If the Jews didnt recognize their Messiah the first time around, who as a population generally had a much greater knowledge of their scripture and the prophecies, how do Christians know that they're not going to make exactly the same mistake again? Isnt it a little presumptious to assume that the majority of Jews back in the day were too dumb to notice the Son of God wandering around? These guys knew the Torah backwards, they had the entire thing memorized, yet they missed it.

Could it be that they got so wrapped up in scriptural laws, trivial matters of behavior, and had such a concrete firmly set belief that their god would return as HE-MAN savior of the day that when a small carpenter stepped up it didnt fit into their worldview.

In your mythology Jesus presented a new agreement between God and Man. Which was basically 'forget about beating the crap out of each other, be nice!'. Now bear in mind that I think Paul F'd up Christianity's basic precepts, but Jesus stepped forward and said 'God thought about some of the stuff in the OT, realized that he probably wasnt providing all the tools that humans need and felt that a little compassion could go a lot further than needlessly slaughtering each other just because they gave you a funny look'.

To me there is no difference between the Jewish priests and religious lawyers who condemned your messiah over points of jewish law and the attitude of many Christians today being so sure of what their God REALLY meant.

Here's my prophecy, "When Jesus comes back it'll be as an recovered junky pornstar, she'll be totally ignored by the militant christians, but gather a faithful following of disciples who were both Christian and non-Christian and in 2000 years people will argue about the best way to perform the ceremony of 'The Giving of the Head' and what she really meant when she said "you know, bombing the fuck out of people simply because you dont understand them is a very silly idea indeed".

hmmm meds wore off, sorry for going on so long:)

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Vallerina 2]

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Yes, the underlying message of Jesus -- do good, be good to others, and live in peace, are easy enough to determine --

and of course if everyone focused on ONLY the important points of this message, the world would be a better place all around...but then no one could claim 'One True Path' and feel superior to all others

Once again, you state things much more eloquently than I do. The teachings of Jesus and whatnot can be terrific guides for people's lives. It's just funny that when the Bible says that you shouldn't judge how many Christians will tell you that you're going to Hell.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[pajarito 0]

I have a class and a test tonight so I can't respond right now. But I will.

[LawnDart21 0]

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"If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously."
Deut. 18:22

Convenient.

If I ask you to pick a card from a randomly shuffled deck and then I try to guess the card, the odds are 1 in 52 that I will be right. The 51 times I'm wrong, I'm just being presumptuous, the one time I'm right, I'm a magician.

.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[AlexCrowley 0]

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Actually yes I did, how funny you should ask. Did you skydive this weekend?

Why, YES, I did. How did you know? I did my AFF Level 4 & 5... quite a huge triumph for me as I had been stuck in Level 4 for almost 2 months. I tried and tried, but couldn't pass. So I went to the wind tunnel a couple of weeks ago, and lo & behold, I passed yesterday! I feel like a heavy burden has been lifted from my shoulders. Thank you for asking.

Thats awesome! Congratulations. I know exactly how you feel, getting thru a mental block can seem really daunting, when you finally get through it it's a breath of fresh air. My block was with wrestling and the night of a 1000 bumps (actually closer to 100).

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First, what do you mean that you DO find the bible to be consistent in a "larger sense"?

Overall Bible message? I think that's best summed up by James Dalton, Head Bouncer Double Deuce Club regarding the OT "If somebody gets in your face, I want you to be nice. Ask him to walk. Be nice. If he won't walk, walk him. But be nice. If you can't walk him, one of the others will help you, and you'll both be nice." His take on the NT is similar "If someone gets in your face, be nice. If they punch you in the face, be nice."

Hell, even Patrick Swayze in a crappy (yet strangely addictive - Sam Elliot is God) 80s movie can sum up Christianity without the extraneous bullshit that causes the hate and bigotry so often justified by using the Bible in the name of God.

I gotta find me a wind tunnel

I just got thru my Category something (hop and pops etc) this Saturday - I guess my new DZ works thru it in the right order :), plus my new rig arrived, plus my Neptune was fixed and returned, plus I got my new analog alti and a new jumpsuit. Generally a pretty good week for falling from great heights.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[crotalus01 0]

WRONG. He created the Universe in SIX days and He rested on the Seventh day (the Sabbath)...which BTW is on Saturday, not Sunday...

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[AlexCrowley 0]

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WRONG. He created the Universe in SIX days and He rested on the Seventh day (the Sabbath)...which BTW is on Saturday, not Sunday...

I said he took a lunch break!

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Muenkel 0]

I find it amazing that we have so many people here in SC who claim God does not exist, yet they spend an awful lot of time here talking about Him.

Well, I guess it's a start.

_________________________________________
Chris

[Mockingbird 0]

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It's just funny that when the Bible says that you shouldn't judge how many Christians will tell you that you're going to Hell.

What about when a Christian "judges" someone in a positive way (by reassuring that person) that, if they receive Christ as their own Savior and Lord, they will not go to Hell? Do non-Christians find that type of "judging" hypocritical as well? or is it just the negative judging that is bothersome?

(I don't mean anything personal, Vallerina, because your comment is a very common observation among non-Christians and Christians alike.)

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

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Overall Bible message? I think that's best summed up by James Dalton, Head Bouncer Double Deuce Club regarding the OT "If somebody gets in your face, I want you to be nice. Ask him to walk. Be nice. If he won't walk, walk him. But be nice. If you can't walk him, one of the others will help you, and you'll both be nice." His take on the NT is similar "If someone gets in your face, be nice. If they punch you in the face, be nice."

Alex, have I totally misunderstood your reply? You're not saying that this is the "overall message" of the Bible, are you? You're joking again, right? Seriously, what do YOU think is the overall message of the Bible, if it can even be summarized somehow?

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[AlexCrowley 0]

Be nice to each other.

Once you strip out all the other bs what does it all boil down to?

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[pajarito 0]

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Be nice to each other.

Once you strip out all the other bs what does it all boil down to?

Still working on a thoughtful reply to your previous post to me yesterday but thought I'd respond to this one b/c it's quick.

You left out the first one. First and foremost, "love God." Then, as you put it, "be nice to each other."

Check it...
If you "love God", then all else falls into place. If you love God, you'll want to please God and do what he requires. And that is... "Love one another" (even your enemies). If you do those two things, even the 10 Commandments falls into place. Selfish, human ”pride” has to take a backseat.

[billvon 3,072]

>I find it amazing that we have so many people here in SC who claim
> God does not exist, yet they spend an awful lot of time here talking
> about Him.

There are message boards far larger than this one devoted to The Matrix. People will talk about anything.

[pajarito 0]

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Belief is a very powerful thing that can blind us to logic. Very simply, Christianity, like any other religion you can use as an example, is self contained and defends its own teachings to create its own structure.

To say that one testament backs up another testament is not proof of anything more than doctrinal consistency - and even then its merely a subset of available books that were chosen for the specific purpose of providing a clear and simple handbook for that particular belief.

I never said that there wasn’t an element of faith. However, it’s not “blind faith.” Given the evidence available, no one has to accept or reject Christianity blindly. I’ve said this before but I think that it is like comparing proof of a criminal case to a civil one. Christianity cannot be “proven” beyond the shadow of a doubt (by design, I think; hence, faith). However, IMO, the preponderance of the evidence points to its validity and reliability. What’s “not” logical about that?

In reference to one Testament backing up the other, I’d point you again to the statistical improbability that it could accurately describe (foretell) the events that it does. You’re right in that it can’t be proven completely but it is very compelling and worthy of trust.

In reference to your comment of how “the books were hand picked to fit its purpose”; the following describes why some books were added to the cannon and others were not.

“ These so called lost books were not included in the Bible for several reasons. They lacked apostolic or prophetic authorship; they did not claim to be the Word of God; they contain unbiblical concepts such as prayer for the dead in 2 Macc. 12:45-46; or have some serious historical inaccuracies. These books were never authoritative, inspired, or authentically written by either the Jewish Prophets or the Christian Apostles.”

Are there lost books of the Bible?

None of that means that what we currently have incorporated in the Bible can’t be trusted.

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1. Why was he not recognized by more Jews during his lifetime (a biblical passage explaining how the savior was going to be ignored is NOT an answer, the question is regarding prophecy and how obvious it is).

The Jews were a severely persecuted people in those times. They knew about the prophesy in Isaiah and the Psalms but they focused on his victories and not his crucifixion. They believed someone was coming to defeat their oppressors and set them up as the ruling nation. God had something else totally different in mind that did not fit with their agenda. He can do that. He’s in charge. The Jews believed that the prophesy did not apply to the Messiah, but to the Nation of Israel or some other person. I think their unwillingness to hear and understand due to arrogance and shortsightedness is why they still to this day deny the obvious. It is also described in the Gospels how much understanding would not occur until the advent of the Holy Spirit (e.g. The Great Counselor).

Decide for yourself.

Isaiah 53 (written ~ 740 – 680 B.C.)

“1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. 9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. 11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors.”

Obvious? I think so.

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2. If the Jews didnt recognize their Messiah the first time around, who as a population generally had a much greater knowledge of their scripture and the prophecies, how do Christians know that they're not going to make exactly the same mistake again? Isnt it a little presumptious to assume that the majority of Jews back in the day were too dumb to notice the Son of God wandering around? These guys knew the Torah backwards, they had the entire thing memorized, yet they missed it.

Could it be that they got so wrapped up in scriptural laws, trivial matters of behavior, and had such a concrete firmly set belief that their god would return as HE-MAN savior of the day that when a small carpenter stepped up it didnt fit into their worldview.

YES

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In your mythology Jesus presented a new agreement between God and Man. Which was basically 'forget about beating the crap out of each other, be nice!'. Now bear in mind that I think Paul F'd up Christianity's basic precepts, but Jesus stepped forward and said 'God thought about some of the stuff in the OT, realized that he probably wasnt providing all the tools that humans need and felt that a little compassion could go a lot further than needlessly slaughtering each other just because they gave you a funny look'.

I think God knows exactly what He’s doing, it’s all part of the larger plan, and it’s not just “trial & error.”

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Here's my prophecy, "When Jesus comes back it'll be as an recovered junky pornstar, she'll be totally ignored by the militant christians, but gather a faithful following of disciples who were both Christian and non-Christian and in 2000 years people will argue about the best way to perform the ceremony of 'The Giving of the Head' and what she really meant when she said "you know, bombing the fuck out of people simply because you dont understand them is a very silly idea indeed".

hmmm meds wore off, sorry for going on so long:)

Your statement (paraphrased), “I mean absolutely no disrespect to your beliefs or the value of your faith” doesn’t jive with your addition above. I’m sure you meant humor but I find it distasteful, disrespectful, and obnoxious.

[AlexCrowley 0]

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Check it...
If you "love God", then all else falls into place. If you love God, you'll want to please God and do what he requires. And that is... "Love one another" (even your enemies). If you do those two things, even the 10 Commandments falls into place. Selfish, human ”pride” has to take a backseat.

You're absolutely correct, and I'd sound crazy if I explained what I said what i said:)

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[AlexCrowley 0]

I'm sorry that it offended your moral fabric but if:

1. The bible says love god
2. be nice to each other.
3. the rest is fluff, basic rules of behavior that are secondary to everything else.

Now I realize that your interpretation of the Bible leads you to believe your thing. Mine leads me to believe mine.

As i think I mentioned, the gospels clearly showed me that Jesus thought the minutia of religious law was BS, that loving God completely was the most important thing, and those 'experts' that interpreted the scriptures in grating detail to tell the people what God did and did not allow were obstacles to be ignored. That the accepted method of worship was wrong.

You know, there are whole sects of Christianity that teach this version of the religion, without the Pharisee-like attention to detail and enforcing strict interpretation to the Bible.

In fact, some teach that there are only two commandments now based on what Jesus said (from which all other commandments would be covered if you think about it - rather than the apologists who recreate them from other passages - thus completely misunderstanding the intent).

I didnt talk about 'lost books', I'm talking about the Council of Nicea, and the apocrypha.

Protestants believe only in the Bible, the Catholics (who've been around longer and arguably could be said to have helped compile the it) contend that the Bible is not the only inspired work, it does not reveal all truths that have been revealed - As The council of Trent in the 16th Century would state explicitly when dealing with the 'heresies' of the Protestants - thus continuing the tradition of people in silly hats messing up a perfectly good religion.

Their belief was that Christianity was an oral tradition, not everything was written down. Jesus did not write stuff down, talked. He didnt start and end with his scriptures, they were a guidebook - his teachings expanded or re-interpreted that. It was a tool, not the be all and end all.

Coincidentally this is why I think those Christians who blindly quote scripture, without adding their own thoughts, in defense of anything have completely missed the point. And no, I wasnt raised Catholic and didnt know about the Council of Trent, it just seems kind of logical that if your Messiah, in his recorded history, had a habit of ripping a new one on anyone that tried to quote scripture at him for why he was doing something wrong then there may be a pretty good argument against one of his followers pulling exactly the same shit using his words.

Hell, I know I'd be pissed.

Even more so, if adherence to the letter and law of what Jesus said is a universal constant and addition or alteration of that message is heretical/wrong, then how do you reconcile the fact that all the books written after Jesus death were written by men who had access to the written texts and lifestory of Jesus but still came up with new stuff to say about what God wanted everyone to do? Maybe because they walked around and talked to people too, using all the available scripture but then teaching beyond that, in the spirit of the scripture NOT the absolute, undynamic, dead words.

In my humble opinion, if the defense of that is 'Because God still spoke to people back then and then figured the Bible said enough and he wasnt going to interact with people anymore except thru that book' then God is dead and he's sending the junky pornstar.

The Jews were wrong, "God had something else totally different in mind that did not fit with their agenda." What on earth makes you believe that perhaps God knows what he's doing and that his plan is going to fit with your agenda?

I did not say 'trial and error' I said that Jesus stepped up to clarify what God said because human beings had f****** up the intent of his message.


I'm sorry junky pornstars offend you, but Jesus hung out with hookers and didnt seem to have a problem.
It would seem to me that if God is true to form then 1) you guys wont recognise his return and 2) he'll come up with something that is the opposite of what you're expecting.

Which seems like a pretty cool god to me, and I'm not even christian :)

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[billvon 3,072]

>but I find it distasteful, disrespectful, and obnoxious.

I have a feeling that if you claimed the Son of God was going to be born to a dirt-poor couple in a barn and then just disappear and do his own thing for 30 years or so, you'd offend some people, too. I'm sure there was a time you would have been executed for such blasphemy.

[Mockingbird 0]

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Your statement (paraphrased), “I mean absolutely no disrespect to your beliefs or the value of your faith” doesn’t jive with your addition above. I’m sure you meant humor but I find it distasteful, disrespectful, and obnoxious.

I have to agree that he seems to be speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Not an attack, of course, just an observation. These days as long as you preface your remarks with “I mean absolutely no disrespect to your beliefs" you can be as crass as you want, even about God, I guess.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

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I have a feeling that if you claimed the Son of God was going to be born to a dirt-poor couple in a barn and then just disappear and do his own thing for 30 years or so, you'd offend some people, too. I'm sure there was a time you would have been executed for such blasphemy.

Definitely, but prophesying a humble birth is a bit different than comparing the Son of God to a pornstar. I mean, there's nothing inately evil about being poor.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

Alex, hey. What I understand you to be saying in your last post, basically, is that:
1. Some people (Jews) thought/think that the Talmud is the word of God.
2. Some people think that the two commandments with which Christ summarized the Old Testament laws, and writings of the prophets ("Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength" and "Love your neighbor as you love yourself") is the only "word of God" we need.
3. Some people (Protestants) think the Bible is the word of God.
4. Some people (Roman Catholics) think that the bible and Catholic tradition are the word of God.

Will the REAL "word of God" please stand up?

Alex (and others), in your humble opinion, IS the "word of God" available to people today who want to know Him? If so, what form does it take?

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[AlexCrowley 0]

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Not an attack, of course, just an observation. These days as long as you preface your remarks with “I mean absolutely no disrespect to your beliefs" you can be as crass as you want, even about God, I guess.

The smart ass side of my personality says "then forgive me" but it would go over peoples heads.

Perhaps you could talk a little more about why you feel what I said was disrespectful and why you feel it was an attack.

I forget how extreme Christians can be in the US compared to the environment I grew up with in Europe, where my comment would be dismissed as either mildly offensive stupidity to be ignored or considered as an off-beat but possibly intriguing concept for further discussion, a discussion that wouldn't include just Biblical quotations and defensiveness.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[AlexCrowley 0]

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Alex (and others), in your humble opinion, IS the "word of God" available to people today who want to know Him? If so, what form does it take?

In my opinion only I believe that there is A word of god available. Certainly not the same God that you've spoken about.

In what form? I am not a preacher, priest, teacher or speaker. I have no system, scripture or formal 'thing' to draw from.

For me to try and talk about where I think the word of god is, or isnt, would be like me dancing about architecture for you. I would appear to be speaking a totally different language because you would never understand, given your statement about pornstars and 'humble births'. In the same way the Bible reads shallowly to a non-believer, my comments would lack any weight to convey what I do or do not believe. Neither do I have any wish to convert anyone, convince anyone or even have a pissing contest of my God is better than your God.

In all honesty I'm pretty sure that 'my' God doesnt even fit the same definition as yours.

feel free to PM me.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[pajarito 0]

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1. The bible says love god
2. be nice to each other.
3. the rest is fluff, basic rules of behavior that are secondary to everything else.

As i think I mentioned, the gospels clearly showed me that Jesus thought the minutia of religious law was BS, that loving God completely was the most important thing, and those 'experts' that interpreted the scriptures in grating detail to tell the people what God did and did not allow were obstacles to be ignored. That the accepted method of worship was wrong.

Review:
Moral law (e.g. 10 Commandments) – Still in effect
Ceremonial law (e.g. Burnt offerings) – Fulfilled in Jesus’ sacrificial death and not binding anymore
Civil law (e.g. Stoning adulterers/homosexuals) – Was only the civil law of the Nation of Israel

The “minutia of religious law” enforced by the Pharisee weren’t all necessarily God’s laws. They were that of the Nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and no other. However, Jesus used verses from the Old Testament as an authoritative basis for beliefs and behavior so they all weren’t considered B.S. by him. He used the Hebrew Bible to prove his points. Both Jesus and the Pharisee agreed on its inspiration. They just disagreed on some interpretation of it.

Jesus DID NOT say just, "love me and love your neighbor." He said those were the most important. He said that those who would follow Him should obey God’s law.

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You know, there are whole sects of Christianity that teach this version of the religion, without the Pharisee-like attention to detail and enforcing strict interpretation to the Bible.

In fact, some teach that there are only two commandments now based on what Jesus said (from which all other commandments would be covered if you think about it - rather than the apologists who recreate them from other passages - thus completely misunderstanding the intent).

You’re right. There are. Loose interpretation leaves a wide gap open for people to do what they want to do. It allows some people to be “religious” but not have that religion interfere with their own selfish desire. Very convenient... You get all the “feel goodness” without any “real substance.”

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Their belief was that Christianity was an oral tradition, not everything was written down. Jesus did not write stuff down, talked. He didnt start and end with his scriptures, they were a guidebook - his teachings expanded or re-interpreted that. It was a tool, not the be all and end all.

Is the Bible Alone Sufficient for Spiritual Truth?

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Even more so, if adherence to the letter and law of what Jesus said is a universal constant and addition or alteration of that message is heretical/wrong, then how do you reconcile the fact that all the books written after Jesus death were written by men who had access to the written texts and lifestory of Jesus but still came up with new stuff to say about what God wanted everyone to do? Maybe because they walked around and talked to people too, using all the available scripture but then teaching beyond that, in the spirit of the scripture NOT the absolute, undynamic, dead words.

Since the New Testament writers were biased, can we trust their testimony?

Also, their testimony, the way they lived their lives, and the way they all accepted death demonstrates divine inspiration. Therefore, they can be trusted.

Peter – crucified
Andrew – killed by crucifixion
Matthew – killed by sword
John – died of natural causes
James, son of Alphaeus – killed by crucifixion
Philip – killed by crucifixion
Simon – killed by crucifixion
Thaddaeus – killed by arrows
James, brother of Jesus – killed by stoning
Thomas – killed by spear thrust
Bartholomew – killed by crucifixion
James, son of Zebedee – killed by sword

Almost all of these guys allowed themselves to be ridiculed, tortured, crucified, and killed because they would not stop teaching and preaching what they “saw and heard.”

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I did not say 'trial and error' I said that Jesus stepped up to clarify what God said because human beings had f****** up the intent of his message.

Then, I agree somewhat.

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I'm sorry junky pornstars offend you, but Jesus hung out with hookers and didnt seem to have a problem.

What has Jesus’ “love of everyone” got to do with your sin of “using the Lord’s name in vain?”

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It would seem to me that if God is true to form then 1) you guys wont recognise his return and 2) he'll come up with something that is the opposite of what you're expecting.

I don’t think I’ll be here when that happens. You might have to deal with that issue, though.

[AlexCrowley 0]

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You’re right. There are. Loose interpretation leaves a wide gap open for people to do what they want to do. It allows some people to be “religious” but not have that religion interfere with their own selfish desire. Very convenient... You get all the “feel goodness” without any “real substance.”

Urm. Of course, but I think anyone reading this forum could point to specific examples of those who adhere to the 'bible is the exact word of god' school who do exactly the same thing.

"Thou Shalt Not Kill" pretty bloody basic concept.

Explain those christians who bomb abortion clinics? I'm sure *they* can justify it by calling it a war, saving the unborn. I dont recall ever seeing a direct passage saying 'thou shalt not kill, except abortionists'.

Justifying our ideologies is our only protection to not spinning off into the insanity of the unknown and unstructured.

What about those idiots who travel the country picketing churches that support homosexuals. Did I miss the bit where Jesus said 'love thy enemy, except for those filthy fucking fags, and then you can wish death upon them'? Thats right, justified by much biblical quotation.

Which bible are we misinterpreting here anyway? Do we suffer a witch or a poisoner? I'm happy to go trigger happy with a flamethrower in Salem, its just down the road - but that whole possibility they actually meant poisoner has held me off til now.

EVERYTHING is an interpretation.

Unless you are reading the Bible in its original form as a native of that country from that historical era you are LOOSELY INTERPRETING IT.

I really dont understand how Christians can be so hypocritical on this point. On the one hand "The bible is the absolute word of God, exactly as he intended, every letter, every word".

Ok, but if you read the book cold and logically it is filled with contradictions and errors.

Ah say the Christian apologetics, "here's a list of things for you to remember:

Skeptic's Instructions for Reading the Bible:

* Always read it completely literally in isolation and never take into account the social, historical, literary and cultural context in which it was written.
* Have a wrong concept of how God should have done things and then throw the rattle out of the pram when he does things differently - this is otherwise known as setting up a straw man and then knocking him down.
* Assume that God dictated it rather than using men in the social, historical and cultural context of the day.
* If there is a difficult passage never consult a commentary written by someone who understands the social, historical, literary and cultural context.
* Never compare scripture with scripture to find the meaning of difficult texts
* Never use different bible versions, never check out the Greek or Hebrew.
* Always assume that if you cannot understand something then it cannot ever be true.
* Ignore the fact of progressive revelation
* Never try to understand the human-divine nature of Jesus or the Trinity, never consult a theologian who can explain these difficult things.
"

umm. But I've done that, so have many others I've talked to, yet Christians turn around tell me I'm bordering on the heretical.

Anyway, gotta head out for a while, I'll tackle the rest later.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[AlexCrowley 0]

Quote

What has Jesus’ “love of everyone” got to do with your sin of “using the Lord’s name in vain?”

Perhaps my God has a better sense of humor and can see in my heart my feelings - or some biblical shit like that ;)

Hey, judging from my PMs there's a very good chance I'll die for my beliefs. Please compile these teachings and tack them in just before Revelations

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.