ChasingBlueSky 0 #1 August 15, 2005 http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050814/ap_on_hi_te/hybrid_tinkerers Experimental Hybrid Cars Get Up to 250 Mpg By TIM MOLLOY, Associated Press Writer Sun Aug 14, 4:22 AM ET CORTE MADERA, Calif. - Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away. Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage. It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret — a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel. Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car. Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home in this San Francisco suburb — all for about a quarter. He's part of a small but growing movement. "Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet cost-efficient, but some of the dozen known experimental models have gotten up to 250 mpg. They have support not only from environmentalists but also from conservative foreign policy hawks who insist Americans fuel terrorism through their gas guzzling. And while the technology has existed for three decades, automakers are beginning to take notice, too. So far, DaimlerChrysler AG is the only company that has committed to building its own plug-in hybrids, quietly pledging to make up to 40 vans for U.S. companies. But Toyota Motor Corp. officials who initially frowned on people altering their cars now say they may be able to learn from them. "They're like the hot rodders of yesterday who did everything to soup up their cars. It was all about horsepower and bling-bling, lots of chrome and accessories," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman. "Maybe the hot rodders of tomorrow are the people who want to get in there and see what they can do about increasing fuel economy." The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 50-50 mix of gas and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in a day, he says, he gets 80 mpg. "The value of plug-in hybrids is they can dramatically reduce gasoline usage for the first few miles every day," Gremban said. "The average for people's usage of a car is somewhere around 30 to 40 miles per day. During that kind of driving, the plug-in hybrid can make a dramatic difference." Backers of plug-in hybrids acknowledge that the electricity to boost their cars generally comes from fossil fuels that create greenhouse gases, but they say that process still produces far less pollution than oil. They also note that electricity could be generated cleanly from solar power. Gremban rigged his car to promote the nonprofit CalCars Initiative, a San Francisco Bay area-based volunteer effort that argues automakers could mass produce plug-in hybrids at a reasonable price. But Toyota and other car companies say they are worried about the cost, convenience and safety of plug-in hybrids — and note that consumers haven't embraced all-electric cars because of the inconvenience of recharging them like giant cell phones. Automakers have spent millions of dollars telling motorists that hybrids don't need to be plugged in, and don't want to confuse the message. Nonetheless, plug-in hybrids are starting to get the backing of prominent hawks like former CIA director James Woolsey and Frank Gaffney, President Reagan's undersecretary of defense. They have joined Set America Free, a group that wants the government to spend $12 billion over four years on plug-in hybrids, alternative fuels and other measures to reduce foreign oil dependence. Gaffney, who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy, said Americans would embrace plug-ins if they understood arguments from him and others who say gasoline contributes to oil-rich Middle Eastern governments that support terrorism. "The more we are consuming oil that either comes from places that are bent on our destruction or helping those who are ... the more we are enabling those who are trying to kill us," Gaffney said. DaimlerChrysler spokesman Nick Cappa said plug-in hybrids are ideal for companies with fleets of vehicles that can be recharged at a central location at night. He declined to name the companies buying the vehicles and said he did not know the vehicles' mileage or cost, or when they would be available. Others are modifying hybrids, too. Monrovia-based Energy CS has converted two Priuses to get up to 230 mpg by using powerful lithium ion batteries. It is forming a new company, EDrive Systems, that will convert hybrids to plug-ins for about $12,000 starting next year, company vice president Greg Hanssen said. University of California, Davis engineering professor Andy Frank built a plug-in hybrid from the ground up in 1972 and has since built seven others, one of which gets up to 250 mpg. They were converted from non-hybrids, including a Ford Taurus and Chevrolet Suburban. Frank has spent $150,000 to $250,000 in research costs on each car, but believes automakers could mass-produce them by adding just $6,000 to each vehicle's price tag. Instead, Frank said, automakers promise hydrogen-powered vehicles hailed by President Bush and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, even though hydrogen's backers acknowledge the cars won't be widely available for years and would require a vast infrastructure of new fueling stations. "They'd rather work on something that won't be in their lifetime, and that's this hydrogen economy stuff," Frank said. "They pick this kind of target to get the public off their back, essentially."_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #2 August 15, 2005 seems misleading to refer to the cars getting 250mpg - they appear to be counting the plug in power source as free. It's not. Nor is the added battery infrastructure. What they're doing is going back to the electric car notion, but with a hybrid engine backup so the range is never restricted. That's a very good idea for those with the reasonably controlled daily mileage. In the greater picture, would be more productive to get people out of the 12mpg cars into the 40mpg ones. Or even a 25mpg hybrid SUV. I think Billvon has talked about making his run 100% on stored power. How much electricity are we talking about per night? If 25% of the country plugged in at night to draw power for 50 miles of driving, how many megawatts are we talking about? Will it fit in the typical nighttime dropoff in demand? BTW, can diesel work in a hybrid design? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #3 August 15, 2005 >I think Billvon has talked about making his run 100% on stored >power. How much electricity are we talking about per night? I'm working on that, but since my drive is very short (<10 miles a day) it's a small amount, on the order of 10kwh. That's about $1.00 in most places. (Free for me but most people don't have solar.) >BTW, can diesel work in a hybrid design? Yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cudlo 0 #4 August 15, 2005 I am all for enviromentally friendly vehicles. I am really excited by the concept of the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. But, as for the hybrid engines. What happens to the batteries when they no longer accept a charge? Garbage dump? Enviromentally friendly?_________________________________________ "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #5 August 15, 2005 This isn't something I am familiar with - but how do you produce all of the hydrogen that will be used? What is the waste byproduct?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cudlo 0 #6 August 15, 2005 There are several different methods for obtaining the hydrogen. It can be produced from coal plants (not very eco friendly obviously), it can be removed from natural gas (Honda has an idea to put a box outside your house that is hooked up to your naturual gas line, gas pump at your house!) or it can be produced passing electricity through water (the eco people want plants with wind, solar generators to make the electricity. For the vehicle itself, its an electric engine, passing hydrogen and oxygen past eachother with a plate inbetween (obviously its a bit more complicated) which generates electricity as it pulls electrons from the hydrogen (if im not mistaken). The byproduct of a hydrogen fuel cell engine is... water. Gov. Terminator out in Cali recently signed a bill setting up Hydrogen Highways as it was called. Basically, building the hydrogen fuel pump infrastructure needed for these cars. Also of note.. While they have prototype cars using this technology, they already have operational hydrogen fuel cell buses on the street. Wonder if they could make hydrogen fuel cell prop planes..._________________________________________ "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #7 August 15, 2005 >I am all for enviromentally friendly vehicles. I am really excited by >the concept of the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. They will never happen. We don't have the extra energy we'd need for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, and consumers will not accept their limited range (<100 miles) or safety problems (explosions.) If you want a gaseous or fuel-cell engine, methane is a better choice. We can make it from garbage and we have some now (and a distribution system.) Plus we have natural gas cars and buses. >But, as for the hybrid engines. What happens to the batteries when >they no longer accept a charge? Garbage dump? Enviromentally > friendly? They're usually nickel metal hydride and aren't too hard to recycle. Generally they're less toxic than lead acid car batteries and get replaced less frequently. Recycling them will be important though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #8 August 15, 2005 Quote I'm working on that, but since my drive is very short (<10 miles a day) it's a small amount, on the order of 10kwh. That's about $1.00 in most places. (Free for me but most people don't have solar.) But my daily usage is slightly under 10kwh/day, so doing this would double my power consumption. I'm a fairly light user, but still wonder how much the late evening power grid could handle if a significant portion of the population went this route. Up until more plants are needed, it's close to free to use the spare capacity, but if additional power plants are needed the eco benefits drop quickly. You're not storing your solar, right? Running the meter backwards in the day, drawing at night? Having everyone charge their cars at home off solar would remove the problem, save that the cars aren't home then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfzombie13 324 #9 August 15, 2005 check it out: use diesel engines with a kit to run from soy bean oil and grow it yourself. how much more environmentally friendly is that?_________________________________________ Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #10 August 15, 2005 Bio-diesil has been around for ages.... but you'll need a big window box. What's the typical yield? How many gallons of oil per acre? EDITED To Add (from Google)... Soybean: 40 to 50 US gal/acre (40 to 50 m³/km²) Rapeseed: 110 to 145 US gal/acre (100 to 140 m³/km²) Mustard: 140 US gal/acre (130 m³/km²) Jatropha: 175 US gal/acre (160 m³/km²) Palm oil: 650 US gal/acre (610 m³/km²) . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #11 August 15, 2005 >. . .still wonder how much the late evening power grid could handle if a >significant portion of the population went this route. Modern EV chargers start charging at around 10pm and terminate around 5am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #12 August 16, 2005 QuoteThere are several different methods for obtaining the hydrogen. It can be produced from coal plants (not very eco friendly obviously), it can be removed from natural gas (Honda has an idea to put a box outside your house that is hooked up to your naturual gas line, gas pump at your house!) That is not to produce hydrogen, it is to allow you to fill up the tank from your home gas supply for a natural gas powered engine.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #13 August 16, 2005 This might interest you. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1618102#1618102People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cudlo 0 #14 August 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteThere are several different methods for obtaining the hydrogen. It can be produced from coal plants (not very eco friendly obviously), it can be removed from natural gas (Honda has an idea to put a box outside your house that is hooked up to your naturual gas line, gas pump at your house!) That is not to produce hydrogen, it is to allow you to fill up the tank from your home gas supply for a natural gas powered engine. Actually (according to the discovery channel) it was for producing hydrogen. Not sure where you got the <100 mile range. Show on discovery I was watching was talking about the engines getting 2x what gasoline does. The people on that show from the automotive industry were saying they expected to have hydrogen fuel cell cars main stream by 2014 Somehow... I am more inclined to believe the Discovery Channel than a web forum._________________________________________ "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #15 August 16, 2005 QuoteThat is not to produce hydrogen, it is to allow you to fill up the tank from your home gas supply for a natural gas powered engine. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually (according to the discovery channel) it was for producing hydrogen. If what you saw was Phill: http://automobiles.honda.com/models/civic_gx_phill.asp?ModelName=Civic+GX It is not to make hydrogen, but that might be in the works also.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cudlo 0 #16 August 16, 2005 no, it wasn't Phill_________________________________________ "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
